Track your comments!
[x]


When you register, comments on your articles and replies to your comments appear here. Register Now!

Sign in to your account
[x]

Not a Scientific Blogging member yet?

Register Now for a Free Scientificblogging.com Account

  • Customize your profile with pictures, banner, a blogroll and more.
  • Leave comments on articles, add other members to your friend lists, chat with people on the site.
  • Write blog posts that can be seen by hundreds of thousands of readers.

It's free and it only takes a minute!

Already a Scientific Blogging member?

Sign In Now

Fake Banner
By Gerhard Adam | July 29th 2009 04:26 PM | 67 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
Individualism is the political philosophy or ideology that emphasizes independence and self-reliance. Individualists advance the idea of realizing one's goals and desires, while opposing most external interference upon those objectives, by society, or any outside agency.

Collectivism is a term used to describe any perspective that stresses human interdependence and the importance of a collective or group, rather than the importance of separate individuals. In this view, the emphasis is on community and society, and priority is given to group goals over individual goals.

How do such seemingly different definitions give rise to the singular phenomenon of human society? More importantly, how can both philosophical definitions be so completely wrong in describing humans?  Part of the problem can be seen by the bias that is intrinsic in the definitions themselves.   I’ve elected to use some quotes from Ayn Rand to represent the individualist perspective, because her viewpoint is so strident regarding its importance. Interestingly enough, despite our dependence on social groups, most humans do not look favorably on the idea of the “collective”.   I suspect that this may be driven by our biological imperative to set ourselves apart and be recognized by the group, so any effort to make us disappear into the group is considered “bad”.

Let’s begin by recognizing that regardless of individual desires or beliefs, we cannot escape our biology. There are many aspects of life that humans can control and will yet control in the future, but our biology is inescapable. Without it, whatever else we may be, it would no longer be human. In addition, we cannot wish away our biology by brainpower. Once again, there are many aspects of human philosophy and intellect that are clearly subject to modification, but we cannot “think” ourselves out of our biological roots.

These roots include the inescapable fact that we are social animals that depend on sexual reproduction to propagate our species. As a result, while philosophical concepts such as self-reliance and independence sound good, in truth, they are meaningless in any real sense.

A concept like independence doesn’t even make sense unless it is placed into the context of the social group. Clearly as individual organisms we can act in absolutely any manner we choose, however truly independent organisms don’t need to assert their independence. Such an assertion only becomes necessary when we’re attempting to convince others and ourselves.

Similarly, humans do not normally operate as a collective wherein each member is simply a contributor to a final action. While this does occur in various settings, it is not the primary mode of our existence. History has demonstrated that humans can survive in numerous different social group configurations, but there isn’t some implicit biological “critical mass” or group size that could be described in any way that resembles something like a collective organism (i.e. “super-organism” like eusocial insects)

Humans operate in both domains, as individuals and collectives, and to favor one over the other is simply myopic. There can be no preferred position from a biological perspective, since both are essential for human survival. This isn’t to suggest that there isn’t a balance, nor does it suggest that humans may not make things better or worse when tinkering with it, but it is impossible to succeed without both.
An individualist is a man who says: “I will not run anyone’s life—nor let anyone run mine. I will not rule nor be ruled. I will not be a master nor a slave. I will not sacrifice myself to anyone—nor sacrifice anyone to myself.”

“Textbook of Americanism,” The Ayn Rand Column, 84

Such a view is filled with so many flaws, one hardly knows where to begin. In the first place it requires anarchy and the absence of law. It completely negates the concept of altruism such as that provided by the military, or police and it requires that all individuals confront each other with complete indifference (i.e. no wars of conquest, territory, etc.).

While some of these ideas may be worth pursuing as philosophical or moral objectives, most are naively pointless, and represent little more than wishful thinking.
We inherit the products of the thought of other men. We inherit the wheel. We make a cart. The cart becomes an automobile. The automobile becomes an airplane. But all through the process what we receive from others is only the end product of their thinking. The moving force is the creative faculty which takes this product as material, uses it and originates the next step. This creative faculty cannot be given or received, shared or borrowed. It belongs to single, individual men. That which it creates is the property of the creator. Men learn from one another. But all learning is only the exchange of material. No man can give another the capacity to think. Yet that capacity is our only means of survival.

The Soul of an Individualist, For the New Intellectual, 78.

Once again, this is simply rhetorical nonsense. Products do not exist as thoughts of men. A cart doesn’t become an automobile, regardless of how good someone’s idea is. It explicitly requires the cooperation of hundreds or thousands of individuals that are being used as a collective labor pool to achieve this objective.

This was always the flaw in the heroes of novels like The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. There was the quantum leap of assuming that the creativity or innovation of these heroes somehow produced results as a single miraculous act. The major complaint of these characters was invariably linked to their lack of appreciation by the collective, rather than any desire to be individualists. If their intent was to be truly independent and individualistic only, then why even bother to share their knowledge or visions?

The creative faculty being referenced may be the property of the creator, but once it leaves his mind, it becomes the property of the collective. Newton’s laws are not rediscovered by every generation. Human society is built on the collective knowledge of individuals, channeled into productive means, and then made collectively available. There is no single man that can be credited with the computer, or the internet. How do such concepts develop if not for the collective approach of data gathering and synthesis?

In fact, the collective group does attempt to recognize individual achievements by assigning names and giving credit where possible, but it would be impossible to live in the society we have if it consisted of nothing but “individualists”.
A great deal may be learned about society by studying man; but this process cannot be reversed: nothing can be learned about man by studying society—by studying the inter-relationships of entities one has never identified or defined.

“What Is Capitalism?” Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 15.

Since it is impossible for man to exist outside of society, then by what reasoning does it make sense to study the individual only? There simply is no such thing as an individual human being that survives.

Let me also be clear that this isn’t some arbitrary definition of social group, but rather it is the absolute, unequivocal means by which humans survive.

Some species have a much lower need for social interaction. Animals, such as grizzly bears, represent a species that may wander over far-ranging territories and only interact for reproductive purposes, but even this limited lifestyle is beyond the ability of humans to achieve.

True individualistic living is so foreign to human psychology that the concept is used in stories to describe how terrible such an existence would be (consider movies like “I am Legend”/”The Omega Man”). Yet if we neglect the specific circumstances of these stories and focus solely on the lifestyle being presented, the majority of people fail to recognize that this is what living as an “individualist” would actually be like.

Some might argue that that is simply an extreme viewpoint and that they are simply advocating for recognition of individuals and that there is nothing wrong with social interaction. However, this begs the question, since it attempts to rationalize our dependence on the social group by suggesting that we can individually elect to participate and that we only do so voluntarily.

There are many animal species that could rightfully be termed “individualistic”, but humans are not among them.

The values that most humans hold in the highest regard, are meaningless without the context of the group to interpret them. What is fame? Wealth? Achievement? Security? Peace? These are all concepts that mark an individual’s position or relationship within a social group. They have no meaning outside of that context.

Even in economics we have ideas like laissez faire which means "let [the people] do" [for themselves what they know how to do]”

Note that this is not an individualistic policy, but rather one of non-interference. In effect, it is saying that if people are allowed to behave as they wish, then a process will emerge that the collective can utilize. The “free market” isn’t intended to promote individualism. It is intended to ensure that competition among individuals produces a cooperative group of individuals. In effect it’s a form of “taming the beast”, where the “beast” is the mass of people being controlled.

Social animals always engage in internal competition for reproductive mates, so it isn’t surprising when a species that can actually articulate such ideas proposes the notion that the “individual” within a group is all important. After all, just like the peacock with its extravagant tail, that’s how we announce ourselves as the most desirable partner in the biological game of sexual selection. While the arguments about individualism may have a certain appeal, it should be clear that by even engaging in such discussions, we demonstrate how little individualism we possess.

Comments

Steve Davis's picture

    Excellent Gerhard. I'm reminded of the words of LT Hobhouse who wrote in 1911
“The prosperous businessman who thinks he has made his fortune entirely by self-help does not pause to consider what single step he could have taken on the road to success but for the ordered tranquillity which has made commercial development possible, the security by road, rail and sea, the masses of skilled labour, and the sum of intelligence which civilisation has placed at his disposal, the very demand for goods which he produces that the progress of the world has created, the inventions he uses as a matter of course that have been built up by the collective effort of generations…as it is society that maintains and guarantees his possessions, so also it is society that is an indispensable partner in its original creation.”



In reference to the post by Steve Davis on 7-29-09:
Why would a prosperous businessman even consider such a false notion as "he has made his fortune entirely by self-help ..."? We have heard some mention of "self-made men" in terms of getting started in business and being successful, without having the privilege of a family fortune or family connections, etc., but I have never heard of this having any link to not having stood on the shoulders of giants.

I think the quote is far too extreme to even take seriously, except to demonstrate some absurdity. But perhaps it falls into the line of thinking that an enterprise must redistribute the wealth as if the entrepreneur owes everybody in the background a "tip" for their service, which can be shown to be absurd, as well, just by the fact that we could never determine who gets a "tip", how much, and when would the reparations ever end, without causing the enterprise to become bankrupt and defunct.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Thanks for the comments.  The quote is very appropriate

Hmmm....where to begin, as you spouted.....

A human cannot escape his biology? And then you hammer in place not biology but rather a constructed cultural meme, the famous bromide (<-- inside usage joke) "...we are social animals..."? This gross error makes everything else you said invalid, since your entire attack is based on it. And indeed you are 100% wrong about Ayn Rand and Objectivism.

Here is the correct thinking:

A human being cannot escape the condition of his survival, which is that he must think, choose and act on his own, with his own brain, not the brain of another person, his soul, not the soul of another. That is the 'inescapable biology.' Any attempt to interfere with a human acting on the judgement of his own mind -- no matter what the supposed justification -- is attempted murder. He is at choice to think, judge and act, but if he does not he will perish. He is not at choice to interfere by force with others use of their own mind; free people have a right and obligation to jail or kill such killers.

So....are you counting on "...depend on sexual reproduction to propagate our species." to bail you out of the dreary dead end of "social animal?" I have to admit, that's a new one. No one has exactly charged Ayn Rand with avoiding the sex drive in her characters! So that's my facetious answer to your justification of the slave state (collectivism) on the basis that we have to have sex with others. My answer is, Ayn Rand will show you the way and I can give you the page numbers in her books if you need instruction.

As to your vapid attempt to push "individualism" out into the dessert of an 'I Am Legend' paradigm, I'll just leave you with this: a sovereign individual human soul is free to associate, cooperate, make contract, work together, live together, have sex together ad infinitum. OR NOT! That is NOT a collective. That is a free nation. A collective is any paradigm where people are compelled by force to be in a master/slave relationship. See my reasoning above why this last is murder...or if you prefer find the sexy parts in Atlas Shrugged and keep reading.

Or...absorb this quote from Miss Rand that says it best:
"To think is an act of choice. The key to what you so recklessly call “human nature,” the open secret you live with, yet dread to name, is the fact that man is a being of volitional consciousness. Reason does not work automatically; thinking is not a mechanical process; the connections of logic are not made by instinct. The function of your stomach, lungs or heart is automatic; the function of your mind is not. In any hour and issue of your life, you are free to think or to evade that effort. But you are not free to escape from your nature, from the fact that reason is your means of survival—so that for you, who are a human being, the question “to be or not to be” is the question “to think or not to think.”

Gerhard Adam's picture
A human being cannot escape the condition of his survival, which is
that he must think, choose and act on his own, with his own brain, not
the brain of another person, his soul, not the soul of another.

I'm not sure why you would think that an individual can't have their own brain and still be a part of the social group.  You may not like the fact that humans are social animals, but they are and there isn't a single example of a human being surviving that wasn't.
Any attempt to interfere with a human acting on the judgement of his
own mind -- no matter what the supposed justification -- is attempted
murder. He is at choice to think, judge and act, but if he does not he
will perish.  He is not at choice to interfere by force with others use of their own
mind; free people have a right and obligation to jail or kill such
killers.

I find it interesting that you justify individualism by invoking the actions of the collective to enforce the ideas.
So that's my facetious answer to your justification of the slave state
(collectivism) on the basis that we have to have sex with others.

I believe that if you read the article I haven't advanced the cause of collectivism any more than individualism.  Choosing one or the other is incorrect since it doesn't reflect the true state of human existence.  However, facetious or not, without a social group there is no reproductive value to the individual. 
A collective is any paradigm where people are compelled by force to be in a master/slave relationship.

No, that is your interpretation of a dysfunctional social group.  There is nothing compulsory (except as dictated by our intrinsic biology) about a social group unless you want to introduce your own political agendas (which is what most of this is about).  This isn't to say that there aren't compulsory groups, but that is also a human invention.
The function of your stomach, lungs or heart is automatic; the function
of your mind is not. In any hour and issue of your life, you are free
to think or to evade that effort. But you are not free to escape from
your nature, from the fact that reason is your means of survival—so
that for you, who are a human being, the question “to be or not to be”
is the question “to think or not to think.”

I don't see why you would think that this quote promotes individualism.  Rather it simply states what we all know about human beings AS individuals, but it certainly doesn't suggest or demonstrate their viability as "individualists".

The ultimate point is that by even making the assertions you're making, you have demonstrated that you don't truly believe you are an individualist.  Such an individual would never think to justify nor explain their beliefs or behavior, because it is inconceivable that it is anyone else's concern.

In regard to Gerhard's response to John Donohue on 7-29-09:
Gerhard, what is your major point of this essay?

You don't seem coherent because, as you point out, the definitions are problems to begin with, so the entire essay's thesis is pointless. Isn't the real point we are humans? Humans have mental capacities above other animals, while we might share similar instinctual, biological drives and processes. You keep harping about sex as evidence that we can't be individuals.

No one is an island... isn't that a simple truth? But everyone is an individual, not isolated, but different.

Even our biological processes are not the same to some degree. Some are even born without the sex drive Some acquire no sex drive. Everybody knows it takes two to tango. That's not the point at all. In a court of law, a social construct, we stand as individuals, accountable for our own actions, and we are judged as individuals.

Individualism, by the definition given, cannot be imagined without some social context and neither can the definition of Collectivism be imagined without individuals. That's what makes this essay so incoherent.

Our human political concerns have evolved into the consideration of individual's having some degree of sovereignty, rather than be considered serfs, subjects, slaves, property of the collective. You say that you .."haven't advanced the cause of collectivism any more than individualism. Choosing one or the other is incorrect since it doesn't reflect the true state of human existence."

Will you please state your point for this essay?

Gary Herstein's picture
You've delved into some interesting territory here (for me and my interests, at least). My apologies for this sorry "fly-by" comment&cavil, but I'd like to offer another term than "collectivism":

"Communitarianism."

This is not a perfect term either, since it invites confusion with "communism." But it stresses the role of the community as a primary constructive factor in/of the individual. However, ther term does have deeper metaphysical connections in the philosophical literature than the specifically "marxist" notion of "collectivism."

I've actually a lot to say on this subject, and will devote an entire essay to it in the 3rd part of my "Moral Inquiry" series. But I am embarassed and sorry that I can't spend more time now (promise, more later) on your interesting remarks above. So rather than a note, I hope you'll accept this as an IOU.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Thank you kindly.  I'll look forward to your comments


You are a master of avoidance. Let's try again, one baby step at a time:

"Social group" has nothing to do with biology.

"Member of a species", yes, that is biology. "Social group" is a constructed way of labeling a groupd of people. There is nothing biological about this "group"; they are not the same organism, right?

Do you agree with that?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Of course, "social group" has to do with biology.  In a more rigid fashion this is precisely the role of eusocial insects (but I'm not suggesting that humans are in that group).  There are social and asocial animals and their biology (via natural selection) has certainly played a role in how that manifests.  In most cases, to the point where it is a prerequisite condition of the species survival.

To suggest that a "social group" is simply some voluntary collective from which an animal can withdraw simply isn't true.

You don't seem to understand, that there is no such thing as a human being surviving without a social group.  It isn't some arbitrary construction or philosophical viewpoint.  There is literally no such thing.  I have no idea why you think equating "social group" with species changes anything.

I also want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that natural selection causes individuals to evolve in favor of the group.  Even Darwin recognized the role of such society in natural selection:
Natural selection will modify the structure of the young in relation to the parent, and of the parent in relation to the young. In social animals it will adapt the structure of each
individual for the benefit of the whole community; if the community profits by the selected change. What natural selection cannot do, is to modify the structure of one species, without giving it any advantage, for the good of another species; and though statements to this effect may be found in works of natural history, I cannot find one case which will bear investigation.  (Origin of Species, Charles Darwin pp 99-100)

Gary, is a communtarian culture a voluntary association of totaly free people who can withdraw at any time? Or are there compulsory elements such as forced distribution of income?

Gary Herstein's picture
Sorry, again, for both my delay in reply and the IOU nature of that reply.

Your question, as posed, is arguably a kind of fallacy: the Complex Question --http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html . Your evident presupposition of "Absolute Atomic Individuals" as the irreducible and formative elements in any such analysis is extremely dubious. (And, of course, I may be imposing a grotesque misreading of your query in my above comments.)

But, as phrased, your question is like Groucho Marx's demand that he be given a simple "yes" or "no" answer to his question: "Are you still beating your wife?"

Any answer one gives presupposes that one was or has been or still is beating one's wife, even if one never engaged in such a heinous action, or even if one was never married.

I probably should not have posted at all in the above, but I got excited and over-estimated how quickly I'd be able to engage this topic directly. FWIW, I'm close to posting part 2 of my proposed "Moral Inquiry" series. In Part 3 this subject takes center stage. I feel like some cheap Hollywood producer tossing off a "Cliff-hanger" episode (which, by the bye, I despise), but I'll set out at length (have you read my stuff? -- I mean, "length" is mild ...) in a week or two.

Sorry. If it is any consolation, I do feel cheap ...

Why do you resort to discussion of non-human animals? Do you mean to imply that humans are simply a Borg-like product of evolution like ants and meerkats and they act as a single-consciousness swarm and that's all there is to it? If you say "no," I would ask you to say what role volitional consciousness of individual humans plays.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I think I clearly stated that humans were not in the same category as eusocial insects.  If you think humans are somehow apart from biology, then please indicate how that might be.

Gerhard,

Ayn Rand did not see any inherent conflict between social and individual aspects of existence. The primary fact she was calling attention to is that individuals exist, and society is merely a collection of individuals, without any separate or real existence. Society is simply a way in which individuals can be grouped or can interact. Hers was a metaphysical statement, not a statement against social interaction per se.

The issue of exactly how to best survive, and how to interact in society, is a much more complex question she answered in The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. First and foremost, she identified reason as our means of survival, and therefore the protection of rational thinking and action based on it is the foundation of her social views. Actually, Rand and other advocates of natural -- or individual -- rights present the only civilized way for people to interact in society without exploitation. If anyone is an advocate of social interaction, it is her. Her cherished ideal of free trade would hardly be possible without social interaction.

Gary Herstein's picture
Ayn Rand did not see any inherent conflict between social and individual aspects of existence. The primary fact she was calling attention to is that individuals exist, and society is merely a collection of individuals, without any separate or real existence.

This is an hypothesis, not a fact. It is an hypothesis that does not fair especially well on either an historical, anthropological, psychological, sociological, biological (even Athena sprang out of Zeus' head), and arguably even metaphysical levels. Before we find "individuals" in any meaningful sense, we find the communities from which these individuals emerge as possibilities.

So, at least, goes one argument. Even if the argument is wrong, it has legs that undercut any casually kerygmatic announcement of Absolute Atomic Individualism as a "fact."

Gerhard Adam's picture
... and her quote regarding the individualist as saying "I will not rule nor be ruled" means what exactly?  It's a philosophical platitude that has no meaning.  You cannot lay claim to a society and "free nation" and then deny the fact that such a grouping is structured.

I understand exactly what her point was regarding the role of the individual in society, but to deny the role of society is one-sided.  They two are complimentary and necessary conditions for human survival.  You cannot simply pick and choose definitions when it suits. 

As you indicated in The Virtue of Selfishness, the entire point is that selfishness was redefined out of all semblance to what the word means.  If it was simply literary license, then so be it, but it certainly isn't philosophy.

I think I clearly stated that humans were not in the same category as eusocial insects. If you think humans are somehow apart from biology, then please indicate how that might be.

No....the burden on you. In your two paragraphs starting with "Let's begin..." and "These root..." you claim that "man is a social animal" is an inescapable fact of biology. That is not only not true, it is absurd. It would have to mean (as I stated last post and you evaded) that humans are simply a Borg-like product of evolution like ants and meerkats and they act as a single-consciousness swarm, ONE BIOLOGICAL ENTITY.

So I'll await your explanation of how "Man is a social animal" is a matter of biology. Naturally, I'd like to repeat my request that if you DON'T hold that mankind is like ants, then could you kindly give your views on the role played by volitional consciousness.

Meanwhile, you object to Rand's proud "I will not rule nor be ruled." This is an inspiring pronouncement worthy of an American Revolutionary and Abolitionist. What problem could you possibly have to a human rejecting being a master and a slave in the same sentence?

Gerhard Adam's picture
I'm sorry, but to confuse ants and meerkats and then simply jump to the conclusion that social groups are genetically "hard-wired" is both disingenous and a mis-statement of what I've said.
That is not only not true, it is absurd. It would have to mean (as I
stated last post and you evaded) that humans are simply a Borg-like
product of evolution like ants and meerkats and they act as a
single-consciousness swarm, ONE BIOLOGICAL ENTITY.

No, it wouldn't mean that, because you're simply fusing the concept of "social" to mean the same thing for every animal.  That would be absurd, but clearly you have something else in mind. 
Meanwhile, you object to Rand's proud "I will not rule nor be ruled."
This is an inspiring pronouncement worthy of an American Revolutionary
and Abolitionist. What problem could you possibly have to a human
rejecting being a master and a slave in the same sentence?

It's a totally meaningless phrase, especially when you invoke the American Revolution, which simply traded one ruler for another (and was engaged in by following rulers/generals).  There is nothing in being a revolutionary or abolitionist that has the remotest connection to living without rule.

my work here is done. This is a person determined to believe that everything is biology or compulsion and that is always someone who will work diligently to put it in if not found. Now headed back to my life as neither a ruler or ruled.

Steve Davis's picture
Ahhh, libertarians, here's one for you from Hayek. (That's Fred, not Selma!)
"...it is largely because civilization enables us constantly to profit from knowledge which we individually do not possess and because each individual's use of his particular knowledge may serve to assist others unknown to him in achieving their ends, that men as members of civilized society can pursue their individual ends so much more successfully than they could alone.”
When the basics of individualism are expressed rationally as Hayek does here, it sounds more akin to collectivism. And in The Fatal Conceit published in 1988, Hayek writes,
“To understand our civilization, one must appreciate that the extended order resulted not from human design or intention but spontaneously: it arose from unintentionally conforming to certain traditional and largely moral practices, many of which men tend to dislike, whose significance they usually fail to understand, whose validity they cannot prove, and which have nonetheless fairly rapidly spread by means of an evolutionary selection - the comparative increase of population and wealth - of those groups that happened to follow them. The unwitting, reluctant, even painful adoption of these practices kept these groups together, increased their access to valuable information of all sorts, and enabled them to be 'fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it' (Genesis 1:28). This process is perhaps the least appreciated facet of human evolution.”


Gerhard Adam's picture
Steve, that's precisely the point is that we are all individuals having to live in a collective social group.  The two are intertwined so that it is pointless to argue one perspective over the other.

There is absolutely no question that we are individuals and can behave as individuals, but to suggest that that is the culmination of human experience misses the broader picture. 

What I'm personally offended by in some of these philosophies is that they lack the courage to say what they really mean.  The rhetoric sounds good, but why not speak the complete truth.  To argue that an individualist will "neither rule or be ruled" is synonymous with being an anarchist.  So why beat around the bush.  Let's talk about anarchy then, instead of suggesting that we don't want to be ruled, while we hide behind the skirts of the government and the law.

In addition, even without talking about government, the average person can't even live by that simple principle in their work environment.  They usually have a boss or they are the boss.  So how does that get reconciled?

I have been trying to get at the point of this essay, which seemed incoherent, because I thought the point was to down play individualism concerning self-reliance and independence. But now I see that this has just been argument for argument's sake, as evident by the comment below:

Gerhard: "...that's precisely the point is that we are all individuals having to live in a collective social group. The two are intertwined so that it is pointless to argue one perspective over the other."

Sorry.

Steve Davis's picture
Exactly Gerhard. They are very selective in applying their beliefs. And they have to be, because it's impractical supposition.

Nicholas Horton's picture
"Let’s begin by recognizing that regardless of individual desires or
beliefs, we cannot escape our biology. There are many aspects of life
that humans can control and will yet control in the future, but our
biology is inescapable."

Great article!  I often use my own variant of the above quote when discussing politico-philosophical questions. 

Though this may sound weird, I self-identify as a libertarian of the extreme left-leaning variety (I'm a pretty loyal Dem).  As such, I exemplify in political terms what your article is about.  Individual freedoms are extremely important to protect in a legal sense, but they aren't the whole story.  No body is an island.  And you're dead on about the reality of Free Markets:  they ONLY work because of people working competitively and collectively together.

Steve,
Great Hayek quote!  I love Hayek.  And I may be one of the only Libertarians in American who thinks Ayn Rand was a whacko!  Hayek's version of Libertarianism (a term he only begrudgingly applied to himself) is what I tend to agree with.  Too many Libertarians have gone in other crazier directions (of course, this is true of ALL political movements). 
 

kerrjac's picture
There will always be a push&pull between society & individual. It's built into us. In some ways we are dependent on society, in other ways we aren't. Even at the biological level, yes, we have to mate, but at the same time we have the choice of who (to varrying degrees culturally).

Regarding these philosophies along with the nature of your commentary on them, it's important to consider the multi-facted nature of causality - eg, final cause, material cause etc. Just b/c we're dependent on some people for some things doesn't mean we're dependent on everyone for everything. Just b/c, in one sense, our existance is dependent on the big bang doesn't mean that we should look to it for our values.

You're right that it's silly to accept individualism - or whatever you may call its opposite - "absolutely". But that doesn't mean that we can't take any insight from these perspectives. When you are making an important decision, should you draw more from others or should you follow what you believe is right? Sometimes they'll coincide, sometimes they won't. Sometimes there maybe an advantage on erring on way or another.

To a degree it's artifical to distinguish between your beliefs & society's, but then again most important distinctions are artifical as well. The pull between individual & society, however, feels real enough on a subjective level. For no better example look at Huck Finn.

Regardless of how these perspectives are laid out by their supporters, I think it's too extreme to judge them absolutely. It's not a quesiton of either-or (ie, which is correct?), but rather it's one of circumstance, where their roles depends on the problem, context, detail, culture, ect.

Fred Pauser's picture
Gerhard,

Excellent article, good thinking.

Ayn Rand’s philosophy seems to be a reaction to her experience of being born and raised under the defective communist system of early twentieth century Russia. Her philosophy goes to the opposite extreme, which is likewise defective.

Nature overall seems to present a picture of balance between the forces of competition and cooperation. But perhaps it can be argued that the forces of nature are so constructed so as to cause cooperation to provide a slight edge, without which complex creatures such as humans would not have come even close to evolving. As Robert Wright eloquently points out in his book, Nonzero, the history of the evolution of life as a whole shows a primary directionality toward ever increasing complexity with matching increasing capabilities.

Each of our own bodies is composed of trillions of cells working cooperatively to form one organism. We have formed symbiotic relationships with certain microbes without which we could not survive. Animals depend on plants to tranform the energy of the sun into food material that we can utilize.

Our species is entering a global crisis, which I believe is largely due to the extremely rapid increases in our technological knowledge and capabilities of the past few centuries. We are threatened with over-population, pollution and destruction of natural resources, global warming, etc. This situation, and even the current world economic crisis and the US health care crisis, indicate the need for improved cooperation. We may see some lessons of extreme disaster in the near future. But I suspect that humanity will develop the wisdom to impliment sufficient cooperation by which we can catch up and be worthy in a sense, of the power of our relatively new-found technological capabilities.

LauraHult's picture
I suspect that humanity will develop the wisdom to impliment sufficient
cooperation by which we can catch up and be worthy in a sense, of the
power of our relatively new-found technological capabilities.

Excellent post, Fred.  I hope you are right about us learning to cooperate.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I don't have any fears about our cooperative abilities, but rather whether it will be enough and that we don't experience any secondary problems.

Yesterday I experienced a 15 hour power outage, which made me think of precisely the kind of circumstances that we could experience if our infrastructure were to experience difficulties.  The problem humans have set themselves up for, is that with the huge population being supported, "failure is not an option".  The collapse of the infrastructure would cause billions of deaths, regardless of how cooperative we wanted to be.

We have become dependent on our house of cards.

LauraHult's picture
Yesterday I experienced a 15 hour power outage, which made me think of
precisely the kind of circumstances that we could experience if our
infrastructure were to experience difficulties.  The problem humans
have set themselves up for, is that with the huge population being
supported, "failure is not an option".  The collapse of the
infrastructure would cause billions of deaths, regardless of how
cooperative we wanted to be.

We have become dependent on our house of cards.

Indeed, as our neighbors in hurricane and typhoon territory can attest to!  But even their problems are time-limited, severe as those experiences have historically been.  With complete collapse, there would be no possibility of relief trucks bringing food and supplies.  If such a scenario should ever play out, any survivors will use both individualism and collectivism.  The following will sound cold-blooded to many, but I'm being pragmatic.

The initial stages of such a disaster would call for hardy individual efforts, for instance getting away from other people as quickly as possible to avoid the spread of disease and violence.  For a family to do this, it would require collectivism from each of its members.  Every member would have to use his or her skills and knowledge to ensure the survival of the group.  For instance, how many of us know how to make something as simple as soap?

After some extended period of time, surviving individuals and groups may band together to more efficiently obtain food and protect what they have, but re-building trust and a spirit of cooperation between unrelated groups will be difficult.

Gerhard Adam's picture
...but re-building trust and a spirit of cooperation between unrelated groups will be difficult.
I think it will be driven as it always has, by expediency.  If cooperation can help gain an advantage then it will be pursued, and if not it will be ignored.  The one part of such "doomsday" scenarios that I don't believe is the idea of aggression between unrelated groups.  It's simply too expensive and risky to engage in, so I would suspect that surviving groups either tend to themselves and ignore their neighbors (as much as possible), or they engage them in a cooperative spirit.

LauraHult's picture
The one part of such "doomsday" scenarios that I don't believe is the
idea of aggression between unrelated groups.  It's simply too expensive
and risky to engage in, so I would suspect that surviving groups either
tend to themselves and ignore their neighbors (as much as possible), or
they engage them in a cooperative spirit.

Perhaps, but we do have experience with looting, riots, etc. following disasters.  I think for a while aggressive behavior would be the order of things.  Over time however, with a lack of adequate nutrition, I think you're right.  It would become far too expensive.

hm....collapse of infrastucture....hm.....

if you think a rising population is causing this, you are blind to our (capitalist indivdiualist producer's) greed. More population leads to more opportunity to provide product to more people and make more money. We like it! So....why would more people lead to shortages, etc.?

no.....I suggest you blame cooperation. but now our definition of cooperation, which is business, but your definition, which is coercive collectivism. We capitalists don't take to it kindly.

We shrug in place.

That is why your lights went out.

LauraHult's picture

hm....collapse of infrastucture....hm.....

if you think a rising population is causing this, you are blind to our
(capitalist indivdiualist producer's) greed. More population leads to
more opportunity to provide product to more people and make more money.
We like it! So....why would more people lead to shortages, etc.?

no.....I suggest you blame cooperation. but now our definition of
cooperation, which is business, but your definition, which is coercive
collectivism. We capitalists don't take to it kindly.

Hello John Donohue.  With all due respect, I believe you are attempting to create a strawman argument.  The issue presented in this article is not one of numbers of people, but rather independence vs. interdependence.  Neither does the author suggest that cooperation is to blame for our sorry state of affairs.

You can shrug all you like, but you do not speak for this Capitalist.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Makes little difference what you perceive the motivation to be, the simple fact is that a rising population cannot rise to infinity.  Therefore wherever one perceives the limit to be, that is the point at which such growth will cease, and probably rather abruptly.

If human society continues to believe that solutions will emerge when they are needed, then they will subject to whatever measures are appropriate to a natural restoration of balance, rather than taking a directed controlled approach that would allow humans to determine their own future.

For someone that believes that man is a reasoning creature, I'm frankly surprised that you would suggest such an irrational course.

I've never advocated for individualism or collectivism and certainly not coercive collectivism.  If such a society exists, it is the sole product of human reasoning and "rational thought".  While you may disagree with such a society, the real problem should be in addressing the "free thinking" of so many individuals that think it's a good idea.

BTW, I'm also a bit curious regarding your pronouncement of capitalism (including Ayn Rand's examples) since one of the points in your philosophy is to "not rule or to be ruled" and yet you advocate a system that most certainly exercises exactly those powers to rule.  The only difference is that people from such a perspective think that by couching their power in economic terms it somehow makes them more benevolent than their political counterparts.

In an environment where we practice neither capitalism, nor free market economics, I'm a bit surprised that you are such a strong advocate for a society that practices neither. 

Unfortunately such philosophies always follow exactly the same pattern.  When one succeeds in a particular system then the system seems to work great, whereas if one has hardship then the system must be flawed.   

I am not "a strong advocate for a society that practices neither" [capitalism or free market]

I am an advocate for capitalism such as it should and could and will be, and for such remenants of it that persist in the blizzard of "'Progressive cooperation.'

I am glad to hear you do not advocate coercive collectivism. If that is true you are not my enemy. As such, however, don't you agree business activity between free individuals is the monolitic form of non-coercive cooperation in the world?

Jeff Sherry's picture
Hello John, How do monolithic businesses promote free individuals in non-coercive cooperation in the world when social capitalism (the Japanese model "Toyota production  Method", Miti and government as business partner) are displacing American past forms?

Would you say the Chinese mix of capitalism changes the dynamics of "non-coercive cooperation in the world?"


The Chinese have One Billion people in the rural/peasant/small farmer condition that has been the case for thousands of years. Meanwhile, in 1976 they abruptly opened a window for 300 million (same as US population) to bulge into a quasi-capitalist culture. They "got out of the way" for a few decades and the authoritarians declared "it is glorious to get rich." They had to declare it so the 300 million would risk believing they would 'stay out of the way' for a while and not shoot them in the head. The 300 million went for it.

One of the reasons this was possible is that the crippling of capitalism in the US by the Progressive Counter-Revolution and the US decision to turn money into fiat currency with deficit spending gave China leverage: They became the manufacturing center for cheap goods and used the trade imbalance to buy US debt. This masked the innate bankruptcy of Keynesianism. We were still able to "keep inflation relatively under control" because WalMart=China and we had a "sucker" (?) to lend money to the government to support the fiat currency.

So the China bulge is congruent with the US concavity. We true free-market capitalists watch this from a distance knowing it is "not of us." The US is tightening the screws on raw capitalism and growing more coercive all the time. The Chinese have not relinquished their authoritarianism but are loosening the screws very selectively, to a selective few. Both systems hope they can get away with coercive cooperation yet allow just enough quasi-freedom to not totally cause all producers to shrug. They also are probably looking around for other countries to join the game. It will be interesting to watch India's reaction.

I think the Chinese believe they will win and it will become "their century." Frankly, they have the advantage of already trending toward opening; that is their inertia. The US inertia is towards coercive collectivism.

To answer the other question, yes I agree that 'social capitalism' is the trend of the world. You have to ask yourself, is present world economy due to the remnant/stub of raw/free entrepreneurship still 'allowed' to exist, or is it due to the march of social capitalism eradicating it? Just a reminder, "social capitalism" is by definition coercive whereas pure free market capitalism -- should it ever be realized (again?) -- is not. So even if social capitalism "works" and the trend to annihilate raw capitalism continues, you have to ask yourself what price was paid for giving up freedom.

Jeff Sherry's picture
John, I think you are arguing from an idealized version of Capitalism which reached its apex during the American age of Trusts, child labor, the company store, protective tariffs and non-unionized workers.  The West Virginia coal miners would be an example of how poorly capitalism benifitted them until the early 1970's. I would contend the middle class increased dramatically when Capitalism became more socialized. Wealth of people above the poverty line affords individuality. 

Gerhard Adam's picture
This is precisely where I see the contradictions between the stated philosophy and the "real world" occurring.  On the one hand the statement is that all men are creatures of reason and free will, and then there's an apparent disconnect with the choices those same men make. 

Similarly, I don't understand why the "trend of the world" or any government should be of interest to an individualist with a stated philosophy of neither ruling or being ruled.  It tends to sound like it's not opposition to ruling as much as it is opposition to rulers that don't agree with you.

Contrary to what you might think, I'm skeptical of ANY proposed solution since I'm of the opinion that all such social philosophies are flawed because they approach humanity as an engineering problem that can be fixed by tweaking parameters.  Human behaviors occur by gradual shifting of circumstances and events and rarely by intent and almost certainly not by intent over the long-term.

I'm also disappointed in economic theory in general in having several centuries to evaluate human interaction and in the end, they can't come up with any better theories than arbitrary refinements to feudalism.

I also don't understand how one can reconcile such a individualistic philosophy with the major players of capitalism, since most assuredly the most influential companies (or successes, if you will), are the most totalitarian, restrictive enterprises that anyone could engage in.  Corporate success is certainly not about promoting competition or freedom in any degree. 

As I said before, it makes little difference to me if the coercive power is wielded as political, militaristic, or economic.  They are all coercive and do not serve to promote ideas of freedom.  If you believe that the U.S. is a coercive collective, then where does the power of coercion lie, if not economically?  It certainly isn't the threat of militarism or violent control of civilians, so where does such a trend acquire its traction?

First off, I would like to say that, Mr. Adam, your article is extremely poignant in its refutation that there can be only an absolute answer in an absolute ideology (collectivism v. Randian individualism), and that it is rather an interplay between the two (or more) forces. This brings me to my question: As an undergraduate majoring in philosophy and psychology, I'm very curious about the relation of current ideas to past ones. In this case, I feel that the basis of your argument is similar to a modified form of the Hegelian Synthesis, with the influence of biology introduced, as well as others. I was wondering if this an accurate statement, or whether I'm off on this point.

Cheers!

P.S.- As a former strict adherent to Randian ideology, I can see from the perspective of Mr. Donohue (not exactly, of course), and am astounded at how similar his presented mode of thinking is to my old. I am constantly amazed at how, for so long, philosophy has existed outside of the physical world, and when the physical world contradicts the ideas of a certain philosophy, that evidence is ignored or otherwise dealt with negatively. If feel that it is the physical world that should dictate philosophy, not philosophy unto the physical world.

Gerhard Adam's picture
First, let me thank you for your kind comments. 

I suppose that you could consider the argument a modified Hegelian Synthesis.  In particular, I think that there is a strong tendency in many disciplines to challenge the prevailing viewpoint and, in some cases, perhaps be contrary just for the sheer hell of it.

Invariably a radical change in perspective can often provide new insights that have been lost in the old, so the new paradigm takes on a new existence.  Personally, I've always maintained that every argument I hear contains elements of truth and elements of denial which another perspective typically resolves.  So no matter what is asserted, I always end up suspecting that the truth is somewhere in the middle between two points.  Part of the reason is that things are never nearly as good or bad as predicted.

The exception to this is when the phenomenon being investigated lends itself to absolute measurement and predictability in behavior.  As such, there is a strong desire to evaluate human behavior and thought in a similar fashion.  What I refer to as treating humans as "an engineering problem", thinking that with laws/politics or philosophies or belief systems that somehow we'll discover the magic parameters that elicit the human behavior we think is most desirable.

I feel that it is the physical world that should dictate philosophy, not philosophy unto the physical world.

Interesting that you should say that because I was just thinking about a paper regarding the "philosophy of philosophy", an exploration of how relevant philosophy can be if it doesn't maintain rigor in including the "real world" in its assessments.  One of the biggest distractions in human thinking is our ability to imagine and construct all kinds of scenarios that have absolutely no basis in reality.  Therefore it seems like it should be incumbent on philosophy to consider those premises and axioms that ensure a realistic context rather than simply pursuing thoughts to where they lead (since this can often end in human fantasy rather than reality - consider the role of infinity in mathematics (i.e. Zeno's paradoxes)).

"...an idealized version of Capitalism which reached its apex during the American..." etc many horrible things.

Correction, I am arguing with a nod to the Golden Age of Capitalism which raised the world from a pit of life as cold, dark, cruel, mean and then you die, complete with slavery, short life span and filth, to clean abundant water, light, food, warmth, shelter, health and...freedom. The middle class exploded on the world during this period. We are still riding the coat-tails of the heroes of that time, and the souls of the "like brothers" to those heroes today. The engine is the innovator, the risk taker, the productive genius, the independent individualist visionary and every honest hard-working person who shuns government-driven socialization.

A warning, again, to all "socializers." Please note that Karl Marx himself understood this and warned about it. The raw capitalist I have just described must be left alone sufficiently for him to create the wealth that the 'cooperators' intend to seize and distribute. He does not thrive under the suffocating blanket of coerced egalitarianism. That warning is: "leave him alone" if you know what's good for you.

Also, a note to the "anonymous entity" claiming to once be a "strict adherent" of Rand: it is lying. The only way it could get from true Objectivism to the state it currently inhabits is to shoot its intellectual brains out. I can tell by its usage it was never actually an Objectivist. Additionally, the gibberish it wrote in that P.S is hash -- completely meaningless.

Gerhard Adam's picture
That warning is: "leave him alone" if you know what's good for you.

For someone claiming to adhere to the individualist philosophy you've adequately demonstrated that you're just another tyrant that wants to impose his ideas and will on others.  Threats don't advance your case, and your rhetoric serves no purpose.

You know what? I am going to "call."
Is this blog a joke? A put-on? Some sort of experiment in constructing an amorphous marshmallow center so gooey there is no escape? You people seem driven like fanatics to implode any idea with sharp edges into the vortex of Central Mush.
I am impressed if this is a joke. You guys are good. That last line ending with a reference to Zeno, in particular, is a work of genius parody, has to be.

Steve Davis's picture
"the Golden Age of Capitalism" which gave us "clean abundant water, light, food, warmth, shelter, health and...freedom."
Sorry Johnno, that's a fantasy. It was not the heroes of capitalism that gave us all that. The heroes of capitalism in general opposed them all. It was ordinary folk who fought for the benefits we enjoy today.

Mr. Adam that was a normative forumlation. Learn it. Google "normative". Learn about the difference between coercion and freedom. You need it.

Mr. Davis needs education if he thinks ordinary folk created modern life. Think it through.

Steve Davis's picture
Actually, you're a little bit right Johnno, there was one hero from the Golden Age of Capitalism. His name was Robert Owen. Big fan of cooperation was Robert.

Right.

How are Owen's books selling these days?

Steve Davis's picture
I gotta admit Johnno, you got a chuckle out of me with that one. Nice to see a right libertarian with a sense of humour, you'd be the first I've come across! Most have their head so far...I'd better stop.

Fred Pauser's picture
But perhaps it can be argued that the forces of nature are so constructed so as to cause cooperation to provide a slight edge [over forces of competition]…

I stated that above, but on second thought, that point probably cannot be argued, at least not successfully. The forces of cooperation and competition are so intertwined throughout nature that it seems impossible to affirm one over the other. I’m certainly not a physicist, but wouldn’t that be like trying to say that attraction at the atomic level is a greater force than repulsion?

At the human level, we know that football and basketball teams that have superior internal cooperation (“teamwork”) are usually superior competitively to those displaying poor teamwork. Among corporations, Toyota became spectacularly successful competitively, in large part due to superior internal cooperation.

Jeff Sherry’s post suggests that nature prefers a balance:

John, I think you are arguing from an idealized version of Capitalism which reached its apex during the American age of Trusts, child labor, the company store, protective tariffs and non-unionized workers. The West Virginia coal miners would be an example of how poorly capitalism benifitted them until the early 1970's. I would contend the middle class increased dramatically when Capitalism became more socialized. Wealth of people above the poverty line affords individuality.

Among nations worldwide, doesn’t there seem to be a trend over time not favoring capitalism or socialism, but favoring a combination of the two opposing systems?

In short, the evidence seems to validate the essential point of Gerhard’s article – that for humans there exists a profound interplay between collectivism and individualism.

Steve Davis's picture

Cooperation has an edge over competition? That can certainly be argued Fred, and Gerhard and I have been doing that for some months now.


I think that capitalism versus socialism is not as simple as cooperation versus competition. Capitalism is a cooperative venture, the competition is a secondary feature. 



Fred Pauser's picture
Cooperation has an edge over competition? That can certainly be argued Fred, and Gerhard and I have been doing that for some months now.

I'm glad to hear that. Since I'm new here, will you point me to those discussions? Thanks.

Steve Davis's picture
About half of Gerhard's contributions relate to this in some way, they include The Biological Meaning of Selfishness Cooperation and Altruism, parts 1, 2 and 3, Defining Competition, The Problem with Selfish Gene Theory, Self Interest versus Selfishness, The Problem of Kin Selection Theory, Cooperation Among Prey Animals, Cooperation Among Predatory Animals. Some of mine are: Selfish Gene Theory - It's Time to Ditch the Mantra, Altruism: Its Origins, Its Evolution, Its Discontents, WD Hamilton, Selfish Herds and Other Biological Oddities, and Rethinking The Theoretical Foundations of Evolution. Looks like I've got some catching up to do!

In regard to your thesis: "How do such seemingly different definitions [Individualism and Collectivism] give rise to the singular phenomenon of human society?"

You seem to recognize a problem with the definitions, including a problem with one being independent of the other, but you go about as if they are independent in the essay, which seems pointless. Your thesis implies that they are independent. They are independent only in the sense of discussing how one can be more important than the other. I don't think you mean to say that collectivism, that is a system that places the collective above individuals in importance, is the way to bulid human society. Hasn't our political evolution tended toward giving individuals a voice, rather than the tyranny of social collectivist governmental control?

Let's accept your definitions concerning Individualism and Collectivism. Now, isn't an individual, in principle, contained in the definition of collective? So, if collectivism depends on individuals, then doesn't an individual's success as a human also determine the success of the collective? Otherwise the collective is a tyranny, which, as you say: "so any effort to make us disappear into the group is considered “bad”."

By your comment: "Humans operate in both domains, as individuals and collectives, and to favor one over the other is simply myopic. ", is totally outside the consideration of any reasonable discussion. Of course, there are two domains, but one is contained in the other.

As to your statement: "These [biological] roots include the inescapable fact that we are social animals that depend on sexual reproduction to propagate our species. As a result, while philosophical concepts such as self-reliance and independence sound good, in truth, they are meaningless in any real sense. " -- Self-reliance and independence refers to an individual's ability to be as close to a sovereign human as possible, having responsibility for oneself and one's vital concerns -- that's what is meaningful to each of us. We're not talking about such deep philosophical reconciliations such as ... Why must we kill to live? -- we are always dependent -- on food.

Are you saying that biologically we are more inclined toward tyranny than some phenomenon of human society that recognizes and promotes individual success? I don't think so, and you don't seem to either, but you continue to press on as if you have a point to make otherwise... such as, .."but it would be impossible to live in the society we have if it consisted of nothing but “individualists”. This is absurd.

As for your final comment: "While the arguments about individualism may have a certain appeal, it should be clear that by even engaging in such discussions, we demonstrate how little individualism we possess."

I suggest that the communication cycle is an inappropriate model for your suggestion that it debunks individualism altogether. Being an individual and having a discussion with another are two different concepts. Your thesis was flawed from the start, you seemed to know that, yet you attempted to build an essay on the flawed notion that one can't say much about individualism. Collectivism must always consider individualism to some degree beyond trying to force equality as a moral dictate, since we will soon find ourselves with the problem of having to decide who's morals will be sacrificed for another's morals. When individuals are free to interact in the vast network of human experiences, the collective outcome is more likely to reflect the diverse wisdom in a moral, workable, and sustainable way, gradual enough for prevention of unintended consequences, and with the incentive to correct problems that do arise.

Hi Gerhard,

Thank you for another excellent article. I always enjoy reading your work. As usual, I have little or no argument with your views. In particular, for every generation to rediscover Newton's laws seems akin to expecting each generation to reinvent the wheel (and the axle). Both seem ridiculous, as we all share a continuous accumulation (or "heritage") of ideas. In this view, patents and copyrights seem more than just a little silly. Innovators should be paid well for their clever discoveries. But there is no reason to grant any "individual" (and their descendants) lifetimes of guaranteed income for exclusive ownership of a supposedly "original" idea. This is not only a financial crime against present and future generations, but it also tends to inhibit the creation of new and better ideas. For example, imagine how much faster health care technology might progress in the absence of laws that deliberately restrict building upon previously patented ideas. "Science", indeed. Are we living in the Dark Ages?

Meanwhile, in terms of "anarchy", I think I know what you are referring to, Gerhard. But you might also be quite surprised (as I was recently ) by the following Wikipedia article on Anarchism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Derived from the Greek "anarchos", anarchism literally means "without rulers". But also notice the "individualist" versus the "socialist" varieties of anarchist philosophy. The latter, as I understand, actually argues for a more democratic society, not one of chaos or no government at all. As I think you've observed in your writings, the laissez-faire philosophy in the US tends to insist upon no government involvement -- only until its so-called "free market" activities fail and a government bailout is needed. Noam Chomsky refers to this as "the nanny State".

In your view, Gerhard, laissez-faire suggests that "if people are allowed to behave as they wish, then a process will emerge that the collective can utilize." I like this perspective. But I would also add that society is a test-tube experiment in this regard, and that when an experiment fails it should be well-documented and then scrapped. How many times do we need to test "market failures" like health care and banking before both are democratized? David Harvey wisely responds: "Increasing the share of the surplus under state control will only work if the state itself is brought back under democratic control." While I see his point, I'm not sure what he means by "back" under democratic control. What point in human history -- what genuinely democratic society -- is Harvey referring "back" to? Has there ever been one? Me thinks not. In fact, over the next century or so, mankind might be -- MAYBE -- embarking upon the very first genuinely democratic (classless, non-antagonistic) society in the history of human civilization.

http://davidharvey.org/media/righttothecity.pdf

Meanwhile, the following from Chomsky was another recent eye-opener for me regarding "libertarianism", as he suggests two virtually opposite definitions for the same word:

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people2/Chomsky/chomsky-con2.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ghoXQxdk6s

In any case I do agree with you that Ayn Rand's "neither rule or be ruled" seems like nonsense, especially with regard to a socioeconomic model like capitalism which inherently generates both conditions. In his essay "Disobedience as a Psychological and Moral Problem", Erich Fromm makes an important distinction between rational and irrational 'authority'. The former is a mutually beneficial relationship (like teachers and students). The latter is antagonistic (masters and slaves), because the interests involved are directly opposed. So, for people like Chomsky, I think "anarchy" is against irrational forms of "rule", not against all "rule" in general or against government "authority" in particular. In fact, under more democratic conditions, government "leaders" might become genuine stewards of the general interest, rather than patsies for antagonistic "special interests".

http://eqi.org/fromm.htm#On%20Disobedience

I bring all this to your attention, Gerhard, not in defense of anarchism or because I consider myself an "anarchist", but because I am aware of a significant variance in definitions for the term "anarchy". This might be something for you to research a bit further.

In my personal view -- our entire economy, in fact all of American society, is based on an antagonistic relationship called "wage labor" which functions primarily to generate and maintain a passive ruling class that contributes nothing to society and controls virtually all of it. When 0.5-percent of the population accumulates extreme wealth and power by siphoning income away from the productive activities of others, the function of government must be to protect the interests of those parasites from the opposing interests of everybody else.

http://www.lcurve.org/

This raises at least two general challenges in arriving at some form of genuine democracy or "rational authority" as a society. First, the role of "ruling class", which has existed for at least 4,000 years in one form or another, must be removed from society altogether. Second, key systems in society must be reorganized more democratically to prohibit the ascent of yet another parasitic ruling class. As David Harvey suggests, the best general approach in both regards is greater democratic control over the production and use of the surplus.

http://davidharvey.org/media/righttothecity.pdf

But again, the latter two paragraphs are my personal views. Whether you share those views or not, another look at the term "anarchy" might be worth your while, Gerhard. Thanks again for your terrific article and for your thoughtful discussion. I hope my input is helpful.

David


Gerhard Adam's picture
David

First of all, thanks for all your comments.  This is only a quick response and your perspective on anarchy is especially welcome since it is an important ingredient in understanding human society and "civilization".

A quick thought regarding anarchy or any form of social organization is to consider the role of population size.  In other words, most people recognize that even the general concept of democracy is unworkable because all the people can't participate, so we water it down with a representative democracy.  Similarly with concepts like anarchy where we view a breakdown of government as chaos.  But, an interesting thought is to ask yourself how this would really materialize if we didn't have such a huge population to sustain?

The reason why I raise this question is because I suspect that older tribal societies could actually be viewed as anarchistic, since there is often no leadership or government in the hierarchical sense.  Leadership is typically created by simply following the guy that has the most knowledge regarding the issue which is a tendency we see arising in smaller groups all the time.  Even within a corporation if a small group is assigned a project, it is often that the most knowledgeable will rise to a leadership role without necessarily having "political power" in the sense that we're accustomed to it.

In the absence of such coercive power (or political position), is this not anarchy without chaos?  In short, it seems that anarchy may be the most democratic of all forms of human organization where people truly are free to participate or not without any enforcement mechanism from a central authority.

Anyway .... just some ideas.

Gerhard,

Well, I hope you'll read the links I sent. Meanwhile, I don't think representative democracy is flawed, regardless of population size. I think the flaw is in the antagonistic relations of wage labor imposed by capitalism. In the absence of this antagonism, representative democracy would probably work just fine. As you suggest, "Leadership is typically created by simply following the guy that has the most knowledge regarding the issue". This would work as well on a large scale as it does on a small scale, if not for the antagonism of wage labor.

But the interests of shareholder value and the interests of the American public are directly opposed in this and many other regards. The only real world solution to this problem is greater democratic control over the production and use of the surplus. I don't want to start a lecture here, but in short I believe this reorganization of working relations requires an aggressive expansion of the cooperative sector supported by a network of publicly owned banks.

Thanks again, Gerhard.

Mr. Kendall, to get rid of the 'antagonism' between capitalists and workers by imposing socialism as you suggest , how would you get rid of the antagonism between the productive people who don't want to work as slaves for the non-productive and the socialist bosses who would make them? You might have a little trouble over that.

I'd also like to translate one of your lines into objective reality, as follows:

Mr. Kendall: ". . . greater democratic control over the production and use of the surplus. . . . I believe this reorganization of working relations requires an aggressive expansion of the cooperative sector supported by a network of publicly owned banks. "

objective reality:" greater statist imposition of coercive command and control over people and property and confiscation of wealth. . . I believe this reorganization of freedom of association by sovereign individuals into a master/slave bondage requires an aggressive expansion of the collectivist dictatorship sector supported by an edict against people owning anything. That's the only way it's going to work."

I assume your remarks are directed at me, Mr. Anonymous, but only because my name appears a couple of times in your otherwise completely unrelated commentary. Are you sure you're in the right place?

Meanwhile, I neglected to answer your question, Gerhard. Yes, what you describe might certainly be considered "anarchy without chaos... the most democratic of all forms of human organization where people truly are free to participate or not without any enforcement mechanism from a central authority".

Exactly correct. In fact, the Wikipedia article on Anarchism lists a system called "Participatory Economics" as one possible model of anarchy where all of the decisions in society are made democratically through workers' and consumers' counsils. I've studied the model just enough to understand it is flawed in a number of ways, particularly in its replacement of "the market" with participatory planning.

Meanwhile, as you suggest, "coercive power" (force) is only necessary under conditions where essential interests are directly opposed (antagonism). My point is that wage labor is perhaps the most glaring example of those conditions in contemporary society. Self-managed worker cooperatives, where there is no "boss", are a tested and proven alternative to the wage labor model of production. This is what I'm referring to when I suggest expanding the cooperative sector. But to achieve the noble aim of removing employers ("rulers") from the workplace, it doesn't make any sense to rely on our tried-and-failed banking system (the other "rulers"). So, as a friend of mine recently suggested:

"I think worker cooperatives are a really excellent idea. Of course the currency and exchange problem would still be there; i.e., there would have to be a monetary system, which should properly be controlled by the cooperatives themselves rather than some outside authority. And the availability of money should be backed by production, not financial, values."

This sort of "credit as a public utility" is what I'm referring to when I suggest a network of publicly-owned banks. I hope that answers your question, Gerhard.

I hit submit without filling in the name by accident last night. This corrects that. You don't have to assume it is in response to you, I directly quoted you and addressed you by name.

And while you blurt that my response is "completely unrelated" to your spoutings, the exact opposite is true: I am countering your iron fist/velvet glove collectivist "lecture" with a dose of reality: you are a champion of totalitarianism.

John Donohue
Pasadena, CA

Aaahh, yes of course -- Dr. Donohue -- brave soldier in the war against communism and a most entertaining specimen to be sure. How nice to finally make your acquaintance, sir. What planet did you say you're from? I finally took some time to read through all of the interesting comments above, including yours. Cheer up, John. There may be hope for you yet. With all of your benevolent contributions, you have actually socialized far more than anyone else in this discussion, except of course the author of the article. Even after you said above, "my work here is done", you've very kindly set aside some additional time to socialize here with me. I think this outstanding level of progress deserves a great big red socialist star with your name engraved right in the middle of it. How 'bout it folks? Let's have a big round of applause for John Donohue -- Socialist of the Month!

Meanwhile, without recapping the entire discussion, I would like to highlight a few key points. First, I agree, Gerhard, that social engineering is not the answer. As Gary Dorrien suggests:

"There can be no socialist blueprint or magic wand This approach does not rest on idealistic notions about human nature and it should not be the next progressive blueprint. Economic democracy is a brake on human greed and domination; the whole point of it is to fight the universal propensity of dominant groups to hoard social goods and abuse disenfranchised people. Neither should progressives absolutize any particular model of economic democracy, for the blueprint mentality is inherently problematic. Socialists were wrong to equate socialization with nationalization. They were wrong to reject production for profit, wrong to think that state planners could replicate the complex pricing decisions of markets, and wrong in trying to organize an economy not linked by markets. Not all Socialist traditions made these mistakes, but the blueprint mentality was deeply ingrained in virtually all of them."

I also concur with Fred Pauser: "The essential point of Gerhard’s article [is] that for humans there exists a profound interplay between collectivism and individualism." Likewise, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. suggests, "Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that life is social, and the Kingdom of Brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of Communism nor the antithesis of Capitalism but in a higher synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths of both". Assuming that "democracy is not just a political value, but one with profound economic implications", David Schweickart suggests "the problem is not to choose between plan and market, but to integrate these institutions into a democratic framework".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_democracy

Fred Pauser also observes that problems of over-population, pollution and destruction of natural resources, global warming, the current world economic crisis and the US health care crisis all indicate the need for improved cooperation. I would further argue that improved cooperation requires expanded access to the democratic process. If we think of democracy as a distribution of decision-making power, we can see that this distribution is heavily skewed in favor of great wealth derived from passive ownership of capital. As David Chandler's "L-Curve" illustrates:

• Less than half of a percent of the total US population are passive claimants of economic wealth, who are also the most active daily participants in the democratic process.

• The rest of us are active daily participants in generating that economic wealth, who are merely passive spectators in the democratic process.

Democratizing the workplace and the banking system doesn't solve all the problems that Fred Pauser lists above. But it does make these problems far more tractable from the local and regional levels of society. Ironically, a more collective organization of production and finance forces greater individual responsibility and provides more individual control in all of the issues Mr. Pauser lists above.

I share your concerns about population size, Gerhard, and the apparent dysfunction of "representative democracy". But I think you might be projecting current conditions into future possibilities. By definition, representative democracy is government of the people, by the people and for the people. That is to say, we tell them what we want, and they "Git-R-Done". What we have now is exactly the opposite. Instead of asking the American public what kind of health care system we want, our elected "representatives" dictate to the American public what we're going to get based almost exclusively on the interests of our UNelected representatives" from insurance corporations.

There are plenty of other examples. The health care issue just happens to be handy at the moment. The point is that ANY kind of democracy, representative or otherwise, is dysfunctional when essential interests are directly opposed and either set of interests has dominant control of the whole process.

That's it for now. Sorry for the long post. Maybe I should have just written an article. Maybe I will sometime.

Would you care to sign a contract that the extent of socialism as a political philosophy and practice consists only of "discussion?" . . . and that beyond that you will shut up?

Of course not, Dr. Donohue. What you suggest is a one-sided contract. That is, you define the terms and reap all the benefits, while I get nothing in return. Who in their right mind would sign a "contract" like this, against their own best inerests, unless they were coerced to do so?

Socialism is slavery.

Apples are vegetables.

Interesting and thought-provoking article.

One criticism is that there's no need to believe Ayn Rand's definition of individualism.

Individualism need not need be absolute in order to be meaningful. Independence and self-reliance do not preclude cooperation and collaboration with others. The clear fact that we are social animals (which in some senses the author may even understate!) does not preclude the fact that we are individual animals we well, and both individual and social tendencies can be deliberately nurtured in both the self-interest and common-interest. Consider liberalism, for example, in the sense of strongly valuing individual freedom. This includes placing more importance on independence and self-reliance in thought, for example. North Korea and the Netherlands both have ideologies which place emphasis on the collective or community. Yet the Dutch are much more individualistic in their values. This helps to result in a considerably different society, and one that probably everyone posting on this blog would prefer to live in over North Korea's. The fact that relative to North Koreans, the Dutch tend to be more freethinking and self-reliant is actually better for their common interest. Although they have their share of problems, they are much wealthier, more educated, and more dynamic than North Koreans overall.

So although individualism is never absolute, it certainly can make a big difference. Rather than neither individualist nor collectivist, it makes more sense to say that humans are both individualist and collectivist, each in varying degrees.

Also, in a followup comment, the author says that American society has neither capitalism nor the free market. This is only partially true, as America is certainly capitalist. "Pure" capitalism has never existed, but America is quite capitalist, for example, in the sense of rather pervasive wage labor exploited by often-parasitic "private" profiteers. That these private forces are often in bed with the state and use the state for their own ends is hardly new; it's characteristic of capitalism. I will agree that there is no genuinely free market, or anything close to it; that's actually the last thing your typical big capitalist would want.

Add a comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <sup> <sub> <a> <em> <strong> <center> <cite> <code> <TH><ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <img> <br> <p> <blockquote> <strike> <object> <param> <embed> <del> <pre> <b> <i> <table> <tbody> <div> <tr> <td> <h1> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <iframe>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
CAPTCHA
If you register, you will never be bothered to prove you are human again. And you get a real editor toolbar to use instead of this HTML thing that wards off spam bots.