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By Mark Changizi | October 15th 2009 06:45 PM | 16 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
I receive a lot of inquisitive emails from intelligent laymen, and today I received a nice one that asked, in so many words, “Is natural selection fast enough to explain the complex biology we find in our world?”

My knee-jerk response was to say, “Well, of course natural selection is fast enough, because here we are?” But I didn’t do that. 

I also didn’t respond by taking out my Dawkins-certified religion-bludgeoning stick. I’m not partial to that pedagogical approach, and I figure it only got Dawkins uncomfortably familiar with Ms. Garrison of South Park. 

Instead, I responded in what I think was a more helpful fashion, and my answer was not what the questioner expected. Here is what I wrote:

*****

On how evolution could be fast enough to get things like us, one distinction worth mentioning is that one can be confident that X is the mechanism underlying some phenomenon B, without being clear about how exactly X in fact manages to do B.  

An an example, consider the case where X is the brain and where B is our thinking. We are sure that the brain is the mechanism underlying our thinking, but we are still very mystified at how the brain can really engender all this thinking and experiencing we do. 

In this light, now let X be evolution and B be the speed at which it can create fancy things like us. Just as we're sure the brain underlies thinking, we can be sure that the (ugly, sloppy, lengthy) mechanism of evolution underlies the complex biological stuff we find on Earth. And despite being overwhelmingly convinced that this is the case, we can still be thrown for a loop as to how natural selection can do it in the time frames allowed.

I don't mean to suggest that we don't know a lot about how the mechanism of natural selection leads to the biology. We do know a lot. And we also know a lot about how the brain leads to our mental life. But in each case there are still huge tracts of unanswered questions. (I'm on the pessimistic side, actually; I believe we're millennia away from understanding the brain and genes.)

For evolution, knowing the genome is only the first step. It may be hundreds of years or more before they can comprehend how it works together in a unified computational fashion. And with that understanding, they may better appreciate that the range of possible offspring is much much lower -- and the survivability and functionality much much higher -- than one would expect if genes were only flipping at the individual level.

*****

The general point is that figuring out “that X is the mechanism for B” is a radically simpler problem than figuring out “how X works as a mechanism for B.” This is so obvious, and yet easy to overlook. For example, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude that my computer is the mechanism that allows these letters I’m now typing to appear before me. But it does take a rocket (or computer) scientist to understand how my computer manages to make this happen. Showing that evolution is the mechanism of life has an astronomically lower bar than showing how evolution exactly does it. 

What was unexpected about my response was my admission that we don’t completely understand how evolution can be fast enough. The reason this is unexpected is that we scientists are often unwilling to show any traces of uncertainty about evolution to intelligent-design folks, probably out of a fear that it “may only encourage them.” But we are, in fact, uncertain about some aspects, and if we claim otherwise and get called out, our credibility will be blown.

Instead, we scientists should be glad to display uncertainty about evolution. …but only in regards to how exactly it works in detail to achieve the complexity found on Earth. We should reserve our claims of certainty to where we truly have them, namely in the claim that evolution is the mechanism underlying life on Earth. …and we should emphasize that the bar for showing this is vastly lower than for showing how.

Comments

Was an eloquent explanation.

Your message on evolution follows from the series of articles Gerhard wrote in the last week or two about decision making and free will.

I believe the point was after an event occurs, what we have is an measurable event that happened for a reason, no matter how oddly the reason was connected to the event.

In your message my main response was that even in a sequence of probabilities we can be lucky and get a favorable result early in the sequence, maybe even the first try.

Once the event occurs, all of the probabilities against it happening become irrelevant for that event even if the same probabilities occur again in the same way for future events.

In quantum mechanics it is called collapsing the wave function, meaning that a lot of odds just get reshuffled.

The message from Schrödinger about life was that one success tends to improve the odds of future successes, and the entropy tends to be minimized and even decreased by non random mechanisms according to the third law of thermodynamics.

(1) Third law of decay S = k Ln D for D the number of states that can be randomly occupied.

(2) for creation (-S) = k Ln (1/C) for C the number of states that are prevented from being randomly occupied.

(3) Combined total third law (net S) = k Ln D/C

Then creation occurs when C is greater than D, and the second law is not violated because the process is not totally random and reversible.

In speaking of evolution some writers are talking about biology only. Others are including geology. In these studies there are a lot of arguments that disappear when cosmology is added to the evolution study.

A recent blog explored the deviation from states of total randomness and total order with the conclusion that neither state is truly achievable or survivable.

Your message left a lot of room for speculation, concerning many worlds and universes, with unanswered questions about how much was luck, how much was non random, and whether or not we got help from outside.

If the faith based group can’t find a loop hole in all of that, then they really aren’t trying.

If you don’t agree, then it is good to consider what types of natural processes qualify as non random. One example that many readers know about is the focusing of radiant heat, light or radio waves from a weak signal that is distributed over a large area to a really hot spot in a small place. This is a creative process that is exempt from the second law.

In the popular big bang model the description sounds a lot like a creative process of highly focused light in a small place.

When the whole of creation is included in the evolution studies, there is plenty of room for everyone except maybe the least motivated.

So what you are saying is Mark, "Don't let your science get in the way of your worldview, and just expect it to catch up someday." Interesting.

This was well said.

I can tell you that as an ex young earth creationist, honesty matters to me. It's not going to do any good for the science side to dissimulate like the anti-science side does. One of the strongest arguments against young earth creationism is that supporters have to be dishonest to defend it.

Einstein was right about the shortcomings of Quantum Mechanics and so therefore String Theory is also the incorrect approach. As an alternative to Quantum Theory there is a new theory that describes and explains the mysteries of physical reality. While not disrespecting the value of Quantum Mechanics as a tool to explain the role
of quanta in our universe. This theory states that there is also a classical explanation for the paradoxes such as EPR and the Wave-Particle Duality. The Theory is called the Theory of Super Relativity and is located at:
Super Relativity
This theory is a philosophical attempt to reconnect the physical universe to realism and deterministic concepts. It explains the mysterious.

I'm confused, first you say,
My knee-jerk response was to say, "Well, of course natural selection is fast enough, because here we are?
then you say,
The general point is that figuring out “that X is the mechanism for B” is a radically simpler problem than figuring out “how X works as a mechanism for B.”
These two statements seem the same to me.

It appears that you are saying something like this:
1 - The only alternative to natural selection is "God" (dispite the possibility of aliens etc.)
2 - The God hypothesis is anathema -- it is outside the bounds of methodological philosophical naturialism.
Therefore natural selection did it -- we see that the "natural selection did it" position doesn't really add up mathematically, but who cares because the other option is illegal.

Gerhard Adam's picture
You got all that from those two statements? 

Gerhard Adam, "You got all that from these two statatements?"
That's not what I said. I said that the two statements were equivelant, that the author said, "I'm not going to give the knee-jerk response" then goes on to give the knee-jerk response with a bit of verboseness added.

The second part of my comment, "It appears that you are saying something like this ..." is in response to the entire article, not just the two statements.

In the article I read statements like, "What was unexpected about my response was my admission that we don’t completely understand how evolution can be fast enough. The reason this is unexpected is that we scientists are often unwilling to show any traces of uncertainty..." and see "we see that the "natural selection did it" position doesn't really add up mathematically.

Gerhard Adam's picture
The general point is that figuring out “that X is the mechanism for B”
is a radically simpler problem than figuring out “how X works as a
mechanism for B.”

These two statements seem the same to me.

That's where it begins to fall apart.  We can easily use an example like your computer system.  We know that (X - the operating system) is the mechanism that allows you to run a browser (B).  However, this does NOT lead us to understand how (X - the operating system) works to do so.  They are hardly equivalent statements.

From this, you jump to the conclusion that because a precise understanding of exactly how it works is missing, that is equivalent to saying that it may not exist. 

Once again, going back to the example of the operating system I mentioned previously, you can easily use your computer and perform all manner of functions without every knowing how the operating system works.  It doesn't lead you to question the existence of the operating system, nor your exploitation of it. 

As stated in the article, there is a clear distinction between understanding something to be a mechanism by which something works, without understanding the precise method by which it works.

Let me help with a simple layout of how a logical case is made. Please complete the following sentance: We know that natural selection is the mechanism of life's variety because ....

It is the painful fact that this article has avoided a clear answer to this obvious question. It is a painful fact that I have never read a good answer to this obvious question anywere, that the only answer I have found is that the other option is anathema.

Gerhard Adam's picture
We know that natural selection is the mechanism of life's variety because ....


1.  We can observe antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria emerging after being exposed to antibiotics.
2.  We have observed its corollary (intentional selection) operating in the areas of animal husbandry and breeding.
    a.  This particular instance is a clear indicator that the mechanism is operable.
    b.  The only extension required to natural selection is to stipulate that it also occurs under
         natural circumstances.
3.  We have seen the detrimental effects of in-breeding populations so we've observed.
4.  We can examine the genes to find the traits that they may control and observe them  across many different species.
5.  We can observe on some genes are "conserved" across species so that they perform the same basic task, but result in radically different expressions (i.e. hands, fins, etc.) - HOX genes

These are only a few points that illustrate the basic concepts and consider the mechanism by which these results are achieved.  

Please don't come back with arguments about "microevolution" or speciation events.  There is plenty of information available on the web that already addresses those questions.

This article also avoided a clear answer as to how we know that most cars use gasoline as fuel.

It's not very painful to note that this article didn't answer how we know that natural selection is the mechanism of life's variety because he wasn't trying to answer that question. He was saying that knowing that life evolved is not the same as knowing every mechanism of how evolution works.

Also, natural selection is not another term for evolution. Natural selection can't produce life's variety. Evolution is a two step process: mutation and natural selection.

The completion to the sentence, "we know that life evolved because ... " is not a few words. It's 150 years of predictions and conclusions.

However, Darrell Falk did a good job of summing it up. He said, "Biologists make predictions, then they go out into the field or the lab to see if their predictions hold up. When hundreds of predictions of this sort are fulfilled, a theory reaches the point where it becomes certain, at least on a broad level. And that is where we are with evolution."

Charles Darwin was not able to predict DNA. He was not able to understand radiometric dating. However, had he known they existed, he would have had to predict that DNA has regular errors in copying that produce change in organisms. He would have been right. Had he been able to know about radiometric dating, he would have predicted that radiometric dating would fit fossils into a smooth series showing life evolved. He would have been right.

And on and on and on and on.

Mark Changizi's picture
To be clear, my main point is to distinguish between the difficulty in knowing how  evolution produces the complexity of life, and the vastly simpler problem in coming to know that  evolution is the mechanism that produces the complexity of life.

I did not begin to enumerate the mountains of evidence for the latter -- and there are mountains of evidence.  The argument for the latter (i.e., "that" evolution is the mechanism) is not (merely) that one of the alternative mechanisms -- God -- is not viable.

Similarly, I did not mention any of the evidence for the conclusion that the brain underlies our thinking. The evidence for this, too, is utterly enormous. ...and goes way beyond the argument that the alternatives -- including, say, that something incorporeal underlies our thinking -- are inconceivable.

For any skeptics of evolution out there, my point is that an argument of the form, "But scientists cannot explain how the mechanism of natural selection leads to the complexity we see in the world," is a fantastically higher bar for scientists to have to fulfill if their goal is to merely show that evolution is the mechanism. By that standard, we should doubt that the brain underlies our thinking. ...and we should doubt that livers underlie detoxification, for that matter. For most complex biological structures that do stuff, we scientists have a radically incomplete understanding of how the meat does it. ...but that doesn't make us doubt that the meat does indeed do it, because we have loads of evidence that it is the meat, and not something else, that is (somehow) responsible.

So, If X is a sweaty shirt tossed on a pile of hay, and B is the appearance of mice underneath it, what's the difference between the theories of evolution and spontaneous genesis?

Evolution is an accumulation of reproducible systems that tend to improve the chances of further accumulation and greater reproducibility. There is nothing of a spontaneous character in evolution on the macro scale. Spontaneity always occurs on the micro scale in physical sciences.

That doesn't say how the opportunities occurred in evolution, or what mechanisms are used in making the accumulations.

Schrödinger discussed this topic at length in 1945, making reference to the third law of thermodynamics, as it applies to the Boltzmann Entropy Equation, and the opinions of Boltzmann about creation from 1875.

The answers have been with us for a long time. Schrödinger developed the mathematics to show that evolution does not occur from purely random combinations. He proved that non random processes are required to accomplish the level of accuracy that is found in replication of living things.

The idea of spontaneous combinations does not apply to evolution. That's where the statistics go wrong.

So what is supposed to be new here? "We don't question that evolution happened, we just aren't exactly sure how it happened yet." You can read that in just about any public school science textbook. Just because you can figure out how something works, also does not prove it was not created. That is faulty thinking.

What provides the genetic information that allows adaptation to occur, random mutations? No one questions that natural selection happens. How do you get enough random beneficial mutations to occur in a short amount of time so that they can be acted upon by natural selection to allow adaptation for survival? Are you assuming X based on the fact that B exists?

Fact: Almost all mutations are harmful and cause a net loss in useful genetic information over time, not a net gain. Fact: Natural selection can only act upon those biological properties that already exist, it cannot create biological properties in order to meet adaptational needs.

The big bang and abiogenesis have already been disproven scientifically. I know, I know, you are going to say: "They aren't a part of evolution." It has been proven that both of these could not have happened through natural causes. Evolution is dead in the water before it gets started. It has also been proven scientifically that genetic information does not come from matter or energy spontaneously. Where did the DNA code come from? I know, just give you some time, you'll figure it out someday. The only reason you believe in evolution is not because of the evidence, but completely because of the only other alternative. You are looking at everything through the filter of your philosophical worldview, and you don't even realize the filter is there, or that it can be removed. You also react violently if someone else tries to remove it.

Most do not even know how the scientific method works today. When you test your hypothesis you are trying to prove it wrong. Looking for evidence to support your hypothesis is not the same thing as testing it. Unbiased testing and reporting are few and far between.

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