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By Steve Davis | February 16th 2009 01:44 AM | 28 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Steve Davis

gadfly: noun (1) fly that stings horses and cattle. (2) (derog) annoying person, esp one that provokes others into action by criticism, etc.... Full Bio

The Extended Phenotype, The Long Reach of the Gene is the book Richard Dawkins wants you to read "if you read nothing else of mine" because "It is probably the finest thing I shall ever write." It purports to be about science, for scientists, yet at the very beginning there is a quite remarkable disclaimer; Dawkins warns the reader that the book contains nothing new, that it is "unabashed advocacy", and that it contains no hypotheses that are testable. In short, the book is declared from the outset to be non-scientific.

Lulled into a false sense of security by this refreshing dose of honesty, the unwary reader is soon swept away by a tsunami of rhetoric, to emerge at the conclusion convinced that white is black and that all that was formerly considered normal and proper is not necessarily wrong, "it's just that you see it wrong!"

This begs the question as to why a scientist would wish us to read it at all, and why a scientist would regard this as his most important work. (Dawkins did explain his reason for writing, to get the reader to look at biology in a new way, but did not explain his motive for this.) It also signals a remarkable departure from his most famous work "The Selfish Gene" in which the reader was informed "It is science."

But was it science? My criticisms of The Selfish Gene are many, but most come under the broad criticism that the book's principal propositions are, like those of The Extended Phenotype, untestable and therefore non-scientific. But there were numerous false assumptions and skewed definitions in The Selfish Gene that were carried over into The Extended Phenotype. One skewed definition is that of the phenotype. On page 235 of The Selfish Gene ,  Dawkins defines phenotype as "The bodily manifestation of a gene, the effect that a gene, in comparison with its alleles, has on the body, via development."

But this is not a phenotype. A phenotype is the combined effect that environment and genotype have on the development of an organism. It is only by subtle misleading changes in emphasis like this that Dawkins is able to give any coherence or plausibility to selfish gene theory.

But what was it that Dawkins wants us to look at in a new way?

The extended phenotype according to Dawkins, is the effect that genes have on their environment, their influence on the world outside the organism they inhabit. "We see the wider world as an arena in which genes play out their tournaments of manipulative skill."

Pretty scientific, huh? An example given of an extended phenotype is the beaver dam. I'll have to quote most of this or you just won't believe me. From the final chapter of The Selfish Gene 2nd ed. (This chapter titled The Long Reach of the Gene was added to the book after publication of The Extended Phenotype, and is described by Dawkins as a summarised version of TEP.) "It's not entirely clear what it's Darwinian purpose is, but it must have one, for the beavers spend so much time and energy in building it. The lake it creates probably helps to protect the beavers from predators...It is a phenotype, no less than a beavers teeth and tail, and it has evolved under the influence of Darwinian selection. Darwinian selection has to have genetic variation to work on...Selection favoured beaver genes that made good lakes for transporting trees, just as it favoured good teeth for felling them. Beaver lakes are extended phenotypic effects of beaver genes, and they can extend over several hundred yards. A long reach indeed!"

Science for scientists?

I'll start with "Darwinian purpose." There's no such thing. Natural selection has no purpose. Next, "It is a phenotype..." It is not a phenotype. A phenotype has a clear meaning as shown above. Next, "are extended phenotypic effects..." A beaver dam might be a phenotypic effect, except no evidence is given for a genetic origin, and it could well be that dam building is a learned behaviour, given that young beavers stay home working until the next litter is due to arrive. Sloppy presentation and assumptions such as these are a regular feature of Dawkins' work.

The stated purpose of The Extended Phenotype and hence the beaver dam, was to persuade readers that the gene is the unit of selection, an entity possessing individual power and purpose, exactly the same purpose as was put for The Selfish Gene with the added feature of external influence. (The original sub-title of TEP was The Gene As The Unit of Selection.) He employs a tool to convince us of this important idea. Dawkins constantly reminds the reader to ask of adaptations; who or what benefits from the adaptation? It is that very question that destroys his mission. He believes that the gene causing the adaptation is the only entity that should be considered as the beneficiary. This is the heart and soul of selfish gene theory, but he inadvertantly gives us in TEP page 92 the evidence that destroys the fallacy.
Dawkins;

“Let me show how easy it is to use the gene as a conceptual unit of selection, while admitting that it is only defined by comparison with its alleles. It is now accepted that a particular major gene for dark coloration in the peppered moth has increased in frequency in industrial areas because it produces phenotypes that are superior in industrial areas. At the same time, we have to admit that this gene is only one of thousands that are necessary for the dark coloration to show itself. A moth cannot have dark wings unless it has wings, and it cannot have wings unless it has hundreds of genes and hundreds of equally necessary environmental factors. But this is all irrelevant. The difference between the light and dark phenotype can still be due to a difference at one locus, even though the phenotypes themselves could not exist without the participation of thousands of genes. And it is the same difference that is the basis of natural selection…However complex the genetic basis of features that all members of a species have in common, natural selection is concerned with differences. Evolutionary change is a limited set of substitutions at identifiable loci.” <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


There is a devastating problem for Dawkins in that passage. He conveniently forgot to ask the question he lectures the reader to always have at the forefront of these discussions; who or what benefits from the adaptation? In this case, as in all cases, it is not only the gene for the variation that benefits. An adaptation can only be successful when it ensures the survival of the organism. All the genes of the organism benefit. No matter what issue is considered in natural selection and evolution, the group in some form is ever present and must be included. The concept of the all-powerful gene as the basis of the extended phenotype is a fable. Genes do not “play out tournaments of manipulative skill”, they merely contribute, with all the other genes in an organism, to the survival or failure of the organism. The level at which selection occurs is just as important as the unit of selection, perhaps more so.


Now every fable has an element of truth, and so it is for selfish gene theory. There does exist, in every organism, a form of selfishness. It’s that variety of selfishness necessary for individuals to survive, the same selfishness that Dawkins analysed incorrectly in his treatment of selfish genes. This variety of selfishness was addressed by Konrad Lorenz and Robert Ardrey, but they referred to it as aggressiveness. Ardrey saw the shortcomings of the word for its potential to be confused with violence. As he saw it, aggressiveness is common to all creatures but does not in all cases progress to violence. I think a more suitable term is assertiveness. Assertiveness in this sense is the tendency of even a single-celled animal to remove itself from potentially harmful environmental factors, and to move towards comfort zones or food sources. When we head for the fridge we are displaying the assertiveness necessary for survival. Assertiveness appears similar but is subtly different to individual selfishness, and they have vastly different origins. Assertiveness may well have a genetic component, but selfishness is learned, for it is a feature of those organisms that are nurtured by parents. We learn it in the nest or on the breast. For example, a new born infant is helpless. It’s so dependent on its kinfolk and their attention is so focused on its needs that it spends its first few months of life understandably believing that it is the centre of the universe. As the child matures intellectually it slowly casts off this learned behaviour. (Excessive selfishness in an adult is a sure sign of intellectual immaturity.)

But there is such a thing as a selfish gene. It’s called a segregation distorter, and it’s selfish because it doesn’t cooperate with the other genes in the organism, it acts to increase its representation in the gamete. But far from increasing its representation in the population as selfish gene doctrine should predict, it usually results in sterility of the organism. So much for selfishness as the dominant feature in evolution.


The Extended Phenotype was written to reinforce the view that the gene is the most important element in evolution. Dawkins believes it is important because, of all the factors and influences involved, the gene is the only one that persists, that survives the death of the organism. This view of the gene has an interesting analogy in archaeology. (Dawkins has a fondness for overly simplistic analogies, so I’m vindicated in advance!) We are told that in certain places civilisations have built cities on the ruins of former cities, using the rubble of the fore-runner as building material. This can happen several times with successive civilisations. But although the same bricks are used, exact copies of former buildings do not appear because different forces contribute to their arrangement, just as genes in general do not produce copies of organisms. Individual bricks can have their own characteristics just as genes do, but a certain feature of a brick in one construction can have an entirely different effect when used in the next. A brick with a hole in it could be used to channel air in one building, water in the next, a reinforcing rod in the next. The same for genes. And as with genes, the survival chances of the building do not rest on one particular trait of the building, but on the building when considered as a unit. It’s no good having the smartest looking roof in town if termites are eating the floorboards. Does this make the brick the most important feature in a building? I think not. Important though bricks are, and despite the fact that bricks can survive several reconstructions, they are just one of countless factors that need to be considered. (I warned you it was simplistic, but then, so is selfish gene theory.)



It’s very difficult to argue that black is white, and although Dawkins tries several tactics to achieve just that, slip-ups are inevitable. One such slip-up can be found in “A Devil’s Chaplain” (2003). On page 260 the following appears. “If a genetic change has no causal influence on bodies, or at least on something that natural selection can ‘see’, natural selection cannot favour or disfavour it. No evolutionary change will result.” Why is this a slip-up? Because it contradicts two basic assertions of selfish gene theory. It shows that the organism is the level at which selection occurs, not the gene. This is surely of crucial importance. (So important that selection levels are an infrequent topic for Dawkins.) And it shows that presenting the gene as the unit of selection, as though this is all that is important in evolution is just plain foolish. If a change in something as fundamental as a gene can have no influence on the phenotype then clearly the gene is no more than a cog in a machine. It is the combined characteristics of the phenotype that result in survival and hence evolutionary change. And if the effect of a gene on the phenotype is limited, or heavily dependent on other factors, then its influence on the world at large, the extended phenotype concept that Dawkins hopes will “illuminate whole areas of biology in new ways”, is sure to be diminished as it will be dependent on other factors to a far greater extent.


 It’s significant that the only convincing examples Dawkins gave of the extended phenotype concept involved parasites, organisms that we’ve always known as master manipulators. To conclude from this that genes in general are master manipulators, or that the extended phenotype is a general rule of nature is delusional. 


All that we can take from The Extended Phenotype is that genes are a factor in natural selection, and even in ecology. But then, we already knew that.



I have a confession to make. I wrote the above as I progressed through the book, but prior to reading the final two chapters. You can imagine my surprise when I found in them a de facto scuttling of selfish gene theory. Not that Dawkins would admit that, what he did was capitulate to his academic opponents by conceding that selection takes place at the level of organisms, then he attempted to reconcile the basis of his two principal books with his newly acquired view of evolutionary biology. Rather a difficult task you might think. Dawkins must have thought so too, because in the second edition of TEP a remarkable situation arose. The second edition gives the preface to the first, followed by a preface for the second. The two are worlds apart in difference of tone. In the first, written in 1981, Dawkins is apologetic, with just a hint of despair, as in “She has kept me going by believing in the project even through the times when I lost my own confidence.” That doesn’t sound like the Dawkins we know at all. In the second, written in 1989, the tone is upbeat and confident, as in a reference to “the now widely accepted selfish gene view of evolution.” That’s the Dawkins of old. My guess is that he was not confident prior to publication that selfish gene theory would survive his capitulation. It should not have survived. Dawkins engaged in some fancy footwork and more smoke and mirrors in an attempt to show that “the version of genic selectionism that can be attacked as naively atomistic and reductionist…is not the view that I am advocating.” But he’s loose with the truth, for in the preface to the second edition the gene is referred to as “the centre of a web of radiating power.” That definitely is naively atomistic and reductionist. Fancy footwork is not quite the right image; he prostrated himself at the feet of Ernst Mayr in an effort to be onside with “the grand old man of evolution”, then had the effrontery to claim that his reformulated interpretation of gene selection would be acceptable to Mayr. Not according to Mayr, who repudiated the gene’s eye view of evolution repeatedly throughout his career. Keep in mind that Dawkins rolled over, accepted organism selection, but still chose The Gene as The Unit of Selection as the sub-title of the first edition. It is true that unit and level are different concepts, but as Mayr said in 1997, “The term (gene as replicator) is, of course, in complete conflict with basic Darwinian thought…Since the gene is not an object of selection (there are no naked genes) any emphasis on precise replication is irrelevant. Evolution is not a change in gene frequencies as is claimed so often, but the maintenance or improvement of adaptedness and the origin of diversity. Changes in gene frequency are a result of evolution, not its cause. (Emphasis added) The claim of gene selection is a typical case of reduction beyond the level where analysis is useful.” Mayr has, in that single highlighted sentence, exposed the fallacy on which Richard Dawkins built a career. Now, Dawkins has a fondness for putting the knife into his opponents then giving it a little twist by using their names as labels for their alleged misunderstandings, as in “Washburn’s Fallacy”. It only seems fair therefore, that “The Dawkins Fallacy” should be added to the list. It goes as follows; “Evolution is the external and visible manifestation of the differential survival of alternative replicators.” (TEP p82) 




Comments

BRAVO!
I've spent years telling people that the Selfish Gene hypothesis is the worst kind of nonsensical pseudo-science, nothing more than a bunch of Just So Stories, but never had the energy to actually go through one of the wretched man's books again after reading one of them years ago and enumerate the fallacies. This will save me the bother...

May Dawkins learn more by reading this very simple review of basic genetic concepts, including the concept of phenotype (question number 7): http://www.biology-questions-and-answers.com/gene.html .

There is no shortage of egos in the world of science.

It looks like more than half the posting was written by Dawkins (often referring to himself in the third person). Could you fix the quote formatting that causes that?

Steve Davis's picture
Sorry, my best efforts have failed. Hank is our only hope!

Steve Davis's picture
Now this is adjustment is not perfect, but it's better.

rholley's picture
Steve,

I still find <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> in your text, which suggests to me that you wrote the article in Word and pasted it into the SciBlog editor.  I was getting fed up to the back teeth with things like that happening, so if I use Word I always copy into WordPad first, then from there into the editor.


Hank's picture
Right, both Microsoft and Google have popular rich text editors (Word and Blogger) that don't play well with anyone else.    Our text editor is used to taking typed in text, like Word does, and making it do whatever you want, so if it's already done that can get strange.

The solution, if you prefer to format in Word or anything else first, is to make them speak the same language. Below the text entry box is a "Switch to Plain Editor button."  If you press that, it disables our text editor so if you copy HTML from Word, for example, and then paste that HTML into the plain text editor, everything will work fine.

Or, as Robert does, you can use something neutral (Wordpad) in between and then it works fine.

Steve Davis's picture
Thanks Robert, Hank.

Steve Davis's picture
The richarddawkins.net site accessed this article within 24hours of publication, yet failed to respond to the serious matters it contains. I would have thought that those organising a self-styled "clear thinking oasis" would feel some sense of obligation to explain their position on these matters. Is it really a clear thinking oasis, or are they running a personality cult? It's their choice.

Please explain why the dam-building by beavers is not testable? ( I am not a biologist, but I image that I - cold hearted as I am - could remove a beaver pup (or kitten or whatever it is called in English) from the beaver family - and rear it out of reach of any dam-building beavers.)

regards

Claus

Steve Davis's picture
It was Dawkins, not me, who declared that The Extended Phenotype contained nothing that is testable. I think your idea is a good one, as long as the experiment could be guaranteed to involve no stress to the pup, (kitten? cub?) which might be difficult to determine. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that it would be stress free, so it seems ethically invalid just to satisfy "idle" curiousity.

I think we can avoid the ethical dilemma, by doing some bird-watching. I am pretty sure that many birds never see their parents build a nest ( for socio-economic reasons only known to birds, they leave their parents before the parents start a new nest). I conclude that nest-building for birds has a large genetic component (but I do not rule out some 'learning-by-doing' and imitation either, birds are not that stupid).
I don't see much difference between nest-building by birds and dam-building by beavers (just one bunch of twigs or another).

Did you notice that the Selfish Gene theory mirrors Adam Smiths 'Invisible Hand' metaphore ?
RD has the 'selfish gene'-effect producing the (real) organism, AS has the (real) free market agents producing the 'invisible hand'- effect

How do you propose to explain, say, the social behaviour of ants? A lot of ants (pretty similar genetically) cooperate to allow one or a few individuals reproduce. In a sense you can consider the ant-hill 'The Organism' and not the individual ants. They are, in this view, just subassemblies, like fingers ( with slightly more freedom of movement).

Steve Davis's picture
I don't see much difference between nest-building by birds and dam-building by beavers (just one bunch of twigs or another). And not much difference to home buiding by humans or burrows by rabbits. Except that this is one occasion where Dawkins understates a position, his usual practice being overstatement. Its understated on this occasion because a beaver dam is much more than a phenotypic effect. A beaver dam is an ecological marvel that provides habitat for countless forms of plant and animal life. (Nests, burrows and houses do so also, but to a lesser extent.) But Dawkins does not want us to focus on an ecological marvel because that might distract us from the sterility of his gene-centric view of biology. Let's face it, it's natural wonders such as beaver dams that gets us interested in biology in the first place. There will be no Darwin, Margulis or Mayr of the future who is tempted into a career in biology by contemplating the emptiness of selfish gene theory. 
I (and many others) have noticed the connection between Dawkins and Smith, it's a subject I hope to treat in more detail in the future.
And if you are from Europe Claus, you might be able to do some beaver watching. I understand some beavers were recently relocated to a site in Nth Europe that was formerly a beaver habitat.  


Steve Davis's picture
I'm sorry Claus, I overlooked your question regarding ant behaviour. You're quite right, the anthill can be regarded as "The Organism" as you out it, in fact DS Wilson has (from memory) argued that all social groups can in certain circumstances be referred to as a "super-organism." I think E O Wilson has done the most notable work on the social insects, that would be the area to look for more info.

I don't recognise the effect of the Selfish Gene Theory on the young minds you suggest.

I still marvel at the wonders of nature, and the SGT is just one angle. I read the Selfish Gene close to 30 years ago, and I was almost tempted to switch from Electronic Engineering ( I have a M.Sc) to biology by that book. (I don't think a Scientific Theory should be evalutaed by its how it influences young people - or its moral value - just how True (in Karl Poppers sense) it is).

Did you ever read 'Unweaving the Rainbow' ? I think Dawkins addresses some of your concerns in that book.
And I think Dawkins get just as much pleasure from watching nature that I do, I haven't met him, but I glean that from reading his books.

You are correct, beavers has been introduced at a place in Jutland (in Denmark, I am Danish) and seem to thrive, and Sweden have a native population, too.

We have several butterfly-species close to eradication, but furry, cuddly creatures are much easier to sell to the public, I am afraid. Nice to see, anyway - and they do create some public interest in biology.

Steve Davis's picture
I don't recognise the effect of the Selfish Gene Theory on the young minds you suggest.  The reason I brought it up was not only my personal feelings on the matter, but also that Dawkins himself referred to a reader who read the first edition and became quite depressed. I think you are one of the lucky ones! I also think that many people would have been attracted to it because it relieved them of a sense of guilt for their occasional selfish desires. (If selfishness is genetic then there's no need for guilt.) But if Dawkins gave that impression then it was flawed, and their guilt was baseless, for reasons that I gave in the article.
Thanks for the info on the relocated beavers. Are the Swedish beavers relocated or native survivors?

Many thanks for the reference to E.O.Wilson. I have 'Nature Revealed' lying on my desk, but have to finish "The Voyage of the Beagle" first.

My point about the ants is that an evolutionary theory somehow should explain this - and Dawkins (building on W.D.Hamilton, J.Maynard Smith an others) could have a point. As a model organism it almost seems possible to test some of coupling between genes and social behaviour.

Sometime I sense a chasm between biologists, who do mathematics, and biologists, who don't. The last group seem to be put very much off by Dawkins.

The Swedish beavers, I believe, are mostly native . Some may have been relocated in connection with the creation of wildlife sanctuaries, though (Sweden is 8 times bigger than Denmark, and with a very different geography and history. Most earth in Denmark has been tilled or grazed for more than 1000 years, not so in Sweden).

I was wrong: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n15_v144/ai_14489012

Hunters killed off Sweden's beavers during the 1800s. Then, during the 1920s and 1930s, conservationists reintroduced a small number of Norwegian animals, of which 46 survived in 11 locations in Sweden. The Swedish beaver population now numbers 100,000, says Ellegren. In Sweden, he and his colleagues obtained DNA from 31 beavers, 25 that lived in the same river system and six from varying distances away. They also examined genetic material from 15 Norwegian beavers and six Russian ones.

Steve Davis's picture
Sometime I sense a chasm between biologists, who do mathematics, and biologists, who don't. The last group seem to be put very much off by Dawkins. There's a good reason for that. The predecessors of Dawkins had the strange view that they could explain many biological phenomena by mathematics. You only have to consider this for about 30 seconds to see the flaws. Even Haldane, for whom I have great respect, tended to this view, although I still think his famous remark about saving two brothers or eight cousins (or whatever the numbers were) was given in jest, after all he was in a pub at the time.
That's interesting about the Swedish beavers, until recently I thought they were only native to Nth America. Now I'll have to tell the missus that I don't know everything.

I beg to disagree on the role of mathematics. Mathematics is as much a 'thinking tool' as an 'explanation tool'.

Trying to create even a very simplified mathematical model, e.g. in the ilk of John Maynard Smiths models, will help to clarify thoughts and ideas. For one self and for others.

I have seen people going off in the other direction and ending up with a biology, which is wordy, imprecise and tedious (like reading Marx or Hegel). But then, I like mathematics.

We also have a European Bison, the Wisent ( with small reintroduced populations in Poland, Russia and Belarus, none in Denmark, no space) At one time less than 50 was alive in Zoo and parks. Actually I am off to the Zoo myself, it is 10:20AM here in Copenhagen and I will try to take some pictures. Have a nice day - and thanks for the dialogue.

Steve Davis's picture
It's time for my evening meal here in Nth Oz, and thank you.

I've read your post a few times, & I'm really not sure where you're sticking the fork into Dawkins. While you're right that a phenotype is the combination of genotype & environment, doesn't the gene determine the degree to which the environment is to play a role? Some kinds of phenotypes are more influenced by environment than others. And the degree to which the environment is even allowed to play a role, I'd think, would relate back to the survival of the organism, and consequently to the passing on of genes. That is, some phenotypes are highly influenced by the environment specifically b/c that degree of flexibility gives genes an advantage; others are less tied to the environment b/c that degree of flexibility would harm them.

It's the same with law-enforcement. Some laws are very context-specific, while others are more general. The degree to which a law is context-specific is determined in order to best suit law's purpose (just as the degree to which a phenotype is influenced by environment is meant to benefit the gene). So while the manifestation in which any particular law (or phenotype) is enforced may be context-specific, that doesn't mean that the context (or environment) is given carte-blanche in the law's formation.

Individual bricks can have their own characteristics just as genes do

I'm not sure what to make of the analogy between genes & bricks. The analogy that's given in every high school biology class between blueprints & buildings. So if an element of a blueprint has not effect on the building, then what's is its point? The analogy breaks down when you consider that these "blueprints" are passed on from one building to the next.

On page 260 the following appears. “If a genetic change has no causal influence on bodies, or at least on something that natural selection can ‘see’, natural selection cannot favour or disfavour it. No evolutionary change will result.” Why is this a slip-up? ...It shows that the organism is the level at which selection occurs, not the gene.

I'm not sure how this is a contradiction. Oversimplified, Dawkins' model is that genes play out in the organism, which play out in natural selection; and conversely, natural selection affects the organism, which affects the genes. The survival of the organism is integral for the survival of the genes.

And lastly, what of sexual selection? I haven't read The Extended Phenotype, & I've a hazy recollection of The Selfish Gene, but I've always thought that Dawkins provided a sound explanation for why sexual selection is an integral part of evolution.

Steve Davis's picture
Thanks for the questions. "I'm really not sure where you're sticking the fork into Dawkins." I think the last two lines satisfy that metaphor. And it really is a serious fallacy that he is promoting. I see on his web-site that the Dawkins acolytes are repeating the mantra, so what he's doing is spreading misunderstanding and ignorance.
"doesn't the gene determine the degree to which the environment is to play a role?" Not at all. As Dawkins says himself, genes just are. Each gene carries out its own little role. The genes as a group interact with the environment to produce the phenotype, but Dawkins does not like to talk of group activity. "the degree to which a phenotype is influenced by environment is meant to benefit the gene". There is no meaning. You've unconsciously taken in Dawkins' flawed concept of "Darwinian purpose." "natural selection affects the organism, which affects the genes. The survival of the organism is integral for the survival of the genes." Exactly so. You've put the elements of the process in their correct order, which means that you understand natural selection better than Dawkins. Its not that he is not aware of these obvious truths, as the quote you highlighted shows, the problem is that he has an agenda that forces him to conclude from the process you outlined that the genes are organising the process.

The genes as a group interact with the environment to produce the phenotype, but Dawkins does not like to talk of group activity.

So the focus should be on groups of genes? If so, what different conclusions would you draw from that?

Dawkins says himself, genes just are. Each gene carries out its own little role.

I still don't see the problem here. Imagine a model similar to Adam Smith's - eg, it is not from the benevolence of the gene that we derive life, but from its regard to its own self-interest. Which is to say that a gene doesn't have to comprehend the whole of the organism in order to do its part, it just has to do whatever facilitates its survival. And when its actions or qualities don't facilitate its survival, it doesn't survive.

From what I remember, he embraced group activity in order to further his point. This was the purpose of his discussion on ants & bees as discussed above, along with his discussion of seemingly selfless behavior in relation to one's immediate family. The main perceived contradiction, as he often repeated, was between our conceptions of selfishness & the sort he was discussing. Adam Smith's ideas encounter the same knee-jerk reaction when people ask how anyone would get along if citizens all just worked in their own self-interest. The response is that often its in our own self-interest to cooperate. Not to get into a long-winded political debate, but you don't have to be a capitalist, or even agree with Adam Smith, to see that self-interest on one level can cause cooperation on another, and to see why the individual unit - be it the gene or the worker - doesn't require knowledge of the whole - eg, the organism, or the economic sector - in order to do its part.

The real question, which applies to both of these authors, is *when* it's in our own self-interest to cooperate, and when it isn't. If I'm interpreting Dawkins correctly, the answer roughly corresponds to whether an organism's genes are at stake.

the problem is that he has an agenda that forces him to conclude from the process you outlined that the genes are organising the process.

What's his agenda? I always thought his Selfish Gene argument was more along the lines of assuming that the gene is the individual "selfish" unit, and then seeing whether the implications of such an assumption match the real world.

Steve Davis's picture

So the focus should be on groups of genes? If so, what different conclusions would you draw from that? The conclusion we draw from that is that the obsession Dawkins has for gene selection is just that, a mere obsession. It is the group that is selected.
Imagine a model similar to Adam Smith's. The problem with selfish gene theory is exactly the same as for Smith's economic view. You can make all the comparisons you like but they are meaningless. Genes do not act alone. The lone gene is an irrelevant entity. Individuals do not act alone economocally. The lone individual is an irrelevant economic entity. While it can be useful to look at the world that way, it is utter foolishness to conclude that this is the way the world works. What's his agenda? I hope to deal with that in more detail in the near future. I'll just have to keep you dangling.



What's his agenda? I hope to deal with that in more detail in the near future. I'll just have to keep you dangling.

I'll be looking forward to it.

As I side-note, I think that a sad side-effect of modern science's zeal for empiricism is that some scientists hide behind the numbers instead of putting their foot out & really saying something. I've been to so many conferences where I'll go up to, say, a poster-presenter and say something like, "Wow, that's a really interesting study. What do you think is going on?" Then they'll point me to a chart and give a little explanation. And I'll say something similar like, "Hmm, that's also really interesting. What do *you* think is *really* going on here?" And they'll point to the same chart, or to another one, & give a little explanation. And I'll be like, "Yes, I see that. It's really interesting. But what do you think is going on here? What's your theory?" & we'll go in lots of little circles. & I'm always kind about it - not like I want to poke holes in their study - but I just want to learn about the world.

Anyway, one of things I've always admired about Dawkins is that he's not afraid to say what he really thinks is going on. I think he gets a lot of flack for this, b/c many scientists really just would rather hide behind their data. But there's always something going on, which - if the study was well-crafted - *should* be controversial insofar as it's in line w/some theories & not others. & you do your study injustice if you don't at least sketch the underlying theory, or if you aren't willing to speculate here & there about it. Maybe it's just a pet-peeve of mine, but science doesn't speak for itself, & if you're unwilling to risk saying something wrong, you shouldn't say anything at all.

Ultimately of course the object of science isn't theory or opinion, it's learning about nature. As slanted or opinionated as Dawkins seems, he explicitly recognizes this in this short video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA86N8K4VBI). Maybe I'm just too quick to buy the rhetoric, but it's refreshing to read the work of an active scientist who is not afraid to say something that maybe wrong; that's kind of what's so fun about Scientific Blogging as well. & I think science would be improved & more engaging if more people were willing to take such risks.

Steve Davis's picture
I'm glad you mentioned your questioning of alleged authority figures because I was beginning to get the impression that it was only bloggers for whom you have a healthy dose of scepticism! Ultimately there is no such thing as an authority. Each time we pick up a book, no matter who wrote it, we should have two questions in mind. What can I learn from this, and what can I criticise? With regard to the last of those, for me Dawkins has been the gift that keeps on giving.

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