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By Patrick Lockerby | March 23rd 2009 08:04 AM | 78 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Patrick Lockerby

Retired engineer, 60+ years young.
Computer builder and programmer.
Linguist specialising in language acquisition and computational linguistics.
Interested in every human endeavour except the... Full Bio

A Theory of Time - Part One

The problem of time is recognised as
a problem in physics.

What is Time?

I submit that the notion of time that is used in modern science is rooted in the notion of time used by scientists such as Galileo and Newton. Although the mathematical notion of time as a dimension of multi-dimensional spacetime has led to great advances, I have noticed that there are discrepancies in the model that can only be addressed by postulating ever more dimensions. I believe that the problem lies in the meld of epistemological and heuristic knowledge that is mathematics. Just because we know how to build a model, we must not assume that we know that the model represents any kind of reality. We must never forget the historic lesson of epicyclic modification of mathematical models of space which came to be used as astronomical theories of reality


 Our models may be fascinating, but reality has a habit of not playing nice with them.

... three ideas that we now know to be completely wrong, but that were so ingrained in the astronomers of an earlier age that they were essentially never questioned:
1  All motion in the heavens is uniform circular motion.
2  The objects in the heavens are made from perfect material, and cannot change their intrinsic properties (e.g., their brightness).
3  The Earth is at the center of the Universe.

(My emphasis, please see link, above, for source.)

"Of the more theoretical papers, Godfray's stands out as an example of caution in relating the ideas to the data. I would have liked to see this caution applied more widely; the development of hypotheses is essential for progress, but one should not confuse them with reality."

Brian Charlesworth, in his book review: Levels of Selection in Evolution. Laurent Keller (ed.)
(My emphasis)


Historical Ideas of Time

Many historical figures have puzzled over 'this thing called time' and have concluded either that it is rooted in our notion of space and sequence, or that it doesn't exist.
"none of the parts of time has an abiding existence, and that which does not abide can hardly have position. It would be better to say that such parts had a relative order, in virtue of one being prior to another."

Aristotle, in Categories.

St. Augustine is often quoted as having said:
"Si non rogas intelligo" (If I don't question it, I understand it.)

The actual quote is:
 "quid est ergo tempus? si nemo ex me quaerat, scio; si quaerenti explicare velim, nescio"
"What, then, is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks me, I do not know."

St. Augustine, Confessions, book 11:14:17  Latin version English version

St. Augustine's aphorism is widely know.  Less widely know is that some thirteen centuries before Kant, he suggested that time is 'all in the mind'.
" impressions, which things as they pass by cause in you, remain even when they are gone; this it is which, still present, I measure, not the things which pass by to make this impression. This I measure when I measure times. Either, then, this is time or I do not measure times"


From the Wikipaedia article on Henri Bergson:
"Our ordinary conception of Time, that which comes to us from the physical sciences, is, Bergson maintains, a false one. It is false because so far from being temporal in character, it is spatial.
... our common view of Time is a false one, being really a hybrid conception, a spurious concept due to the illicit introduction of the idea of space"


The investigations of Jean Piaget suggest that children's grasp of the concept 'time' is strongly founded in concepts which (I would say) are entirely independent of the need for a notion of time. In short, a child must develop through a phase of using the concept of time as a tool before the child can become capable of grasping the notion of time as a thing.

"But once time has been made an object, the idea of time, like concepts of other objects, will eventually be elaborated upon and perfected in the manifold of concepts"

The Child’s Conception of Time [PIAG6]

(Some related ideas following from Piaget's work, which may be of interest to my readers:
Conceptual networks based on pupils' conception of time free pdf download )

" ... some researchers increasingly suspect that time is not a fundamental feature of nature, but rather an artefact of our perception."

Is time an illusion?
"According to Carlo Rovelli, professor of physics at the Universite de la Mediterrannee in Marseille, France, what we perceive as time could be nothing more than our way of simplifying the universe."


Is Time Just A Trick Of The Mind?
"The past, present and future are only illusions, even if stubborn ones."

Albert Einstein


Time is as Time Does
"Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once".


This quote is attributed variously to Einstein, John Archibald Wheeler, and Woody Allen.

If time has no real existence, what keeps everything from happening all at once?

This blog and the discussion is  continued in Part 2.

Comments

Stellare's picture
Interesting time(s)! Time is just another variable in mathematics and in theoretical physics. Well, in physics it is representing a physical phenomena rather than just an abstraction though. Still I'm not sure I follow your arguments excluding mathematics from describing time. Real time.

It is definitely not the same as with neuroscience.

I've seen so many scannings of brain activities and what I call 'jumping to conclusions' and I think you formulate a similar problem here. I mean, just because we observe some (we don't know if we see all) physical or chemical activity we do not have sufficient information to interpret those signals. Not yet at least.

Just because we know how to build a model, we must not assume that we know that the model represents any kind of reality.

logicman's picture
Bente:   Thanks for your comments. 

 The problem with our concept of time is exactly that it 'feels'  intuitive, we think we understand a thing which we may call real time.  It isn't real and it isn't intuitive in the sense of not needing to be taught.  Time is not an a priori of the intellect or an instinct.  We don't need to be taught space and gravity.  We rapidly intuit that leaping into space will give us a well-earned feel for gravity.  Time's acquisition as a linguistic concept  is a part of the language instinct.  (Acknowledgements to Steven Pinker for the term 'language instinct'.)

Before math can use the concept of real time, the scientific method requires a strong definition.  All current definitions refer to measurable mass lengths, wave lengths or energy states.  None of these things measures time.  If you place a rule against wood, you measure wood, not some abstract inch or centimeter that has a real cosmic existence somewhere.  Inches are not real  Centimeters are not real.  Seconds, minutes, hours - none of these is real.

It's something like numerical abstraction. 2 + 2 = 4 only because an ancestor observed that you don't have to keep saying 'things'.  When saying "Any two things plus any two things adds up to four things.", it obeys the parsimony rule of language to delete the irrelevant words.  Mathematics trains us to ignore data!  But our own nervous systems do that all the time.  We see the car consciously only when we ignore the road.  Intelligent self-awareness is simply blind ignorance trying to look at itself in a mirror, but that will be a whole new blog!

But please do beg to differ.  How may I teach, if I refuse to learn?

Hfarmer's picture
The problem you have noted with using mass length's, waven length's etc. to define time is that we almost always use arbitrary man made units for such things.  i.e. the meter and the second relate to the human length scale, and the rotation of earth.  There is nothing fundamental about either of those things. 

As I myself have written about, along with many others, Planck units are the answer to that kind of problem. They are based on fundamental universal constants.  Thus the smallest indivisible bit of time/length is also such a universal constant. 

The time we feel and observe is just the motion from one point to another measured in Planck units, along a geodetic path through space-time.  That's it that's all.   It is important to note the difference between the time we feel (observer time, the time we feel as we ride our particular geodetic path's through the cosmos) and coordinate time (a complete abstraction).

logicman's picture
Hontas:  I just caught your comment.  It's past 3 am UK time.  I may not be as alert as usual, which is not very alert either.

Very briefly.  It doesn't matter if you measure X in u units or q quantities, all you are doing is tallying one thing against another, based on the intuitive notion that it is possible to assign number to dimension.

It really doesn't matter if I measure distance in miles or kilometers.  In a universe with no intelligence to observe, there are no miles, there are no kilometers.  Place ten pebbles in a row and you can measure out an arrow shaft ten pebbles long for any customer who wants one.  Then you can sell ten pebbles worth of grain.
You can even lay out some pebbles on the ground and push in a stick.  If anyone wants to know the time, just tell them its 3 pebbles past pebble-gap or whatever.  Calculus = small stone.

Once you start to abstract mental constructs from the world of things and their inherent properties, it is all too easy to assume the reality of those abstract ideas.  Personally, I blame evolution for getting us into such a mess.  Why on Earth did we get brains that invent things and then convince us that they are real?

But that, as they say, is another story.

Goodnight, and many thanks for your input - much appreciated.

Hfarmer's picture
You say X in units of q  and dismiss because most units are just one thing tally'd against another. 

Planck units are fundamentally different. It's almost a total misnomer to call them units in the truest sense.  They are fundamental constants of nature.

Furthermore as I said talking about what is time in a way that is totally divorced from geometry is empty.  I mentioned geodetic path's....  I am sure you are familliar with special relativity.

Consider the light cone.  The actual cone is a hyper surface composed of null or light like geodetic path's.  The progress of that light heads into the future faster than anything else can.  The light as it follows it's path experiences it's time. 

You as you follow your path experience your time, as measured in your local reference frame.  This is not about clocks and measurement.  You experience time, as you walk you know you were over there, and that you will be some where else soon, or you see the world go by....

This connects to light in the following way.  Suppose you are an astronomer and measure the distance to a star by one means (say parallax) then measure the Doppler shift in it's spectrum.  You then know that the light which followed the shortest possible path to you, did not come to you instantly.  You are aware of the reality of time.

The Planck units come in because in time and space they are the smallest that have any physical meaning, all other lengths all other times, should be measured in their terms.

As for talking about time as a pure and separate abstraction... . Time divorced from everything else, has no more meaning than a straight line on a sheet of paper.  The only pure abstraction related to this that has any physical meaning is space-time. 

logicman's picture
Once again, I just caught your comment, this time as I was about to go out.

So again, a brief comment, but I will come back.

Is a Planck unit really* the smallest quantity that has physical meaning?  If a
quantum may correctly be thought of as a wave packet, then it has wave
- length.  Antenna designers, cable designers, all such engineers
intuit fractions of waves.  Depending only on the sphere of application, you can subdivide ad infinitum.

Planck's constant relates (describes) the energy - frequency relationships in quanta.  Now, it is entirely possible to describe frequency without any use of the concept 'time'.  In dealing with waves of any kind, it is a convenience to talk about, e.g. how many peaks pass a reference point in a given time, but that is just an intuitive convenience.  Time is not necessary.

Einstein's genius lay in showing us just how much of what we think we
know about the world we inhabit is just an intuitive convenience.  I do
not have the source, but I am confident that it was Einstein who
said:
"Common sense is something that we were spoon-fed on our mother's knee."

* Footnote:
 'really' in the absolute abstract.  e.g. An atom 'really' exists, and may form the sharpest point of a very sharp object, but the point in and of itself has absolutely no reality anywhere in the cosmos.  It is a convenient and pragmatic abstraction - nothing more. Such also is pragmatic time - yes, and even space itself may turn out to be pragmatic space.

Hfarmer's picture
You ask if a Planck unit really is the smallest unit that has physical meaning.   Consider the following. 

Before Einstein told us E=Mc^2 he told us that in the case of light E=hc/wavelength.   

Now consider the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole.  Rs=2GM/(c^2).

lp=√(ħG)   is the Planck lenght, and  mp=√( ħc/G ) is the planck mass.

What happens if we set the Planck length equal to the wavelength of the light (or the de Broglie wavelength of the particle)?   Lets see.  First it is standard practice in particle physics and relativity to set ħ=c=1.  Then the energy of a particle with a wavelength equal to one Planck length is...

E=1/√G
Use this as the mass in the Schwarzchild radius formula.

Rs=2G/√G=2√G
So you see a particle with a wavelength of one planck length or less, will collapse and form a tiny, black hole!  If you try to go any smaller the same will happen.  Since the only way we can probe and define length's or equivalently times is with high energy particles with ever smaller wavelength's this means there is a limit to the smallest unit of space-time that can be physically measured with any resolution.  Effectively no shorter lenght or time exist.

logicman's picture
there is a limit to the smallest unit of space-time that can be
physically measured with any resolution.  Effectively no shorter lenght
or time exist.

Key word: effectively.  Our ability to measure things with accuracy has always depended on the resolution of our instruments.  But Heisenberg showed that there are limits to measureabilty.  If the Planck unit is truly the smallest unit of measure, we can never know that, because we can never measure it directly.  We can only infer it.  Even if there is a smallest possible thing, SPT, our language still permits philosophical speculation about half of an SPT.

Coincidentally, just before I spotted your comment, I had been reading your theory.  I am by no means a mathematician, but I did gain something from skimming through.

I know that talking of gravity enabled space travel is the stuff of science fiction and cranks but the temptation is to hard to resist.   So I will only suggest the possibility for further future study.


I love those tractor beams in sci-fi movies.  With one of those, who needs rockets?  Just point that beam at the nearest planet and hey presto!  Thanks to Newtons' laws, off you go, accelerating towards the planet.

Hfarmer's picture
True but this resolution is not just an artifact of our instruments, it is a fundamental physical limit, similar and related to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.   :-)  This has been an interesting talk.  I never really thought about time alone and just what it was. 
I love those gadgets in sci fi to.   Let's just hope that we have discovered alien life forms to use them against lest we use them to destroy our own planet. (i.e. Hbomb  bad weapon on earth's surface,  not really so bad in deep space.  It's already radioactive and deadly there.)


logicman's picture
not really so bad in deep space.  It's already radioactive and deadly there.

I'll have to take your word for that.  I haven't been out that way lately.  My UFO is in the shop for a new artificial-gravity beam-generator  module.  That's the third one this year.  The first one failed the day after the warranty expired - could that be a universal law at work?  Its a good job I'm with the AAA - the  Astronaut Assistance Association, or I'd have had a long space-walk home.  :)

Gerhard Adam's picture
...which is why you need an Inifinite Improbability Drive ....

logicman's picture
Gerhard: it is finitely probable that you are correct.  :-)


The Planck units come in because in time and space they are the smallest that have any physical meaning, all other lengths all other times, should be measured in their terms.


If we were weightless and floating in "flat" space, then we could set up two (locally) Cartesian frames of reference, offset by half a Planck space unit (which I'll call δ) with respect to one another along an axis: specifically, we could put the second reference frame's origin at [ ½ δ, 0, 0] in the first frame's coordinate system. However, now position measurements that have "physical meaning" in the second frame will not have a "physical meaning" in the first reference frame!

Or consider a quantity like momentum, which is defined in terms of the time derivative of position. Since derivatives are (usually) defined in terms of mathematical limits, momentum would seem to result from calculations that have no physical counterparts or 'meaning.' Worse, there is nothing in maths to guarantee that such momentum values would be 'physically meaningful,' integral multiples of the Planck momentum unit.

Clearly, any theory that implies that 'only integral multiples of Planck units have physical meaning' would generate a massive maze of very serious problems as a by-product. Such a theory may be right, but bear in mind that (strictly speaking) it implies that general relativity and quantum mechanics are wrong.

logicman's picture
Thanks for the comment.  I'll take on board what you say.  I'll be discussing momentum in due course.  Part 3 is in production.

Stellare's picture
I certainly beg to differ! :-) When you say mathematics trains us to ignore data, that is. Mathematics is a tool for abstraction. And I believe the key to our understanding lies in that - abstraction. Abstraction does not mean that what ever it describes can be ignored or does not exist.

A typical example is the fourth dimension thinking. Our understanding of more than three dimensions requires a capability of abstract thinking. After a certain amount of mathematical training you are able and feel comfortable thinking about or in as many dimensions you like, like n dimensions. And so on.

As a joke we say; what's the big deal with black holes? - it is just a singularity! Referring of course to the mathematics of it. With training in abstraction we acquire a certain understanding - or feel for - what a singularity is.

I do agree that time is an extremely interesting physical (in whatever abstraction level we have to think of it) variable. :-)


logicman's picture
Abstraction does not mean that what ever it describes can be ignored or does not exist.


Let me try again.
To 'abstract' means 'to take out from', from the Latin word meaning 'to drag away.
What we abstract, we keep, we notice, we study. What remains is irrelevant, we are indifferent to it, we ignore it.

Precis, condensation, gisting, review: all are means of taking and showing the important bits to someone.  If I read a condensed book, I almost never feel the need to find out what words were left out.  I am happy to forever remain ignorant of it, and to joyfully continue breaking the pedagogic rules of grammar.

So with mathematics.  Imagine a professor trying to teach somebody who keeps writing, e.g. -0.75 evey time the professor asks them to write down 0.25 - my point being that every concept has been 'dragged away' from a real thing or another concept.  In my example, a quarter can only be understood by its implicature - the other three quarters that came with it from the original conceptual whole.

Try to imagine this with the eyes of a child.  A parent is trying to teach numbers.  There are four toys in the box, the parent takes out one and asks "How many toys in the box?"  In order to answer the question with accuracy, the child must completely ignore the toy that is not in the box.

It is this that I mean when I talk about ignoring things.  It's flip side is focus.  If I say that mathematicians ignore a lot of things, then I am only saying that they are highly focused people.  But we all are.  It's in our neural mechanisms - but I shall deal with that in another part of this saga. 

Our notion of time is abstracted from our ideas of space - itself a dubious abstraction from other notions - in the linguistic-cognitive sense.  People who think about time note that we can only go forwards, never backwards or sideways, upwards or downwards.  In exactly the same way that we can never truly grasp the concept of a four-legged tripod, we can never truly grasp the idea of these motions in time.  Our grasp of the tripod concept, being well ingrained, prevents us from even truly thinking about a four-legged variety.  In exactly the same way, we cannot grasp the possibility of going backwards in time.

Forget about the laws of thermodynamics, for now, I'm talking about the way our brain censors its own thoughts.  Just as it is unthinkable to go sideways or vertically in time, so it is unthinkable for so many people that time has no real existence.  The model-in-the-brain works perhaps too well.  Try to imagine building a humanoid robot.  You could implant any reality you wish.  Stick in Isaac Asimovs three laws of robotics and, for the robot, it will be quite literally unthinkable that arobot might harm a human.  On being told that it had, in fact, harmed a human, it could only refuse to accept that as a meaningful statement.  A bit like a biologist arguing with a creationist?

Hmm. This reply is growing into an essay.  Best stop there.

Your turn at bat.

Gerhard Adam's picture
"People who think about time note that we can only go forwards, never backwards or sideways, upwards or downwards."

I'm not sure that's entirely true.   A fundamental issue regarding time is whether it is cyclical or linear.  The concept of future and past is deeply rooted in the notion of a linear time scale where things only progress in one direction.  However, a cyclical view would entail a repetitious perspective whereby the linear aspects are ignored and yet a recognition of change occurs that would be a view of time.  I would argue that the time perspective (such as it is) in most living things would follow a cyclical view, rather than the linear historical view that humans have adopted.

Another question to consider is the degree to which non-humans experience time.  It seems clear to me that animals have memory, which suggests that they recollect information from the past.  However, it is even more telling that negative experiences can be recalled and projected to the future, which indicates that an animal can relate past events to future consequences.  While this may only be over a relatively short span, it does suggest that there is a definite past/future perspective to events which extends beyond human abstraction. 

logicman's picture
It seems clear to me that animals have memory, which suggests that they
recollect information from the past.  However, it is even more telling
that negative experiences can be recalled and projected to the future,
which indicates that an animal can relate past events to future
consequences.

Agreed.  But almost all neural events follow this pattern.  It is purely mechanistic - a stored value is compared with an input.  The fact of storing a value for purposes of comparison cannot be taken as any proof of time as a reality.  Computers can compare stored values with fresh input.  Computers also have clocks, but that is an anthropocentric word for a particular type of 'gadget'. 

At a guess, about half of all words are anthropocentric.  Describe a fire as cosy or fierce and you are ascribing anthropic properties to fire.  We ascribe anthropic properties to time and space all the time.  Time passes us by.  Us - anthropic through and through.  We waste time.  Nature has no waste, the notion is as anthropic as 'suvival of the fittest'.  Everything we think we 'know' about time can be analysed down to anthropic principles.

The fact that the Earth rotates affects all of life, and even the geology of the planet.  Other life-forms are affected by this rotation, but it takes human insight to invent a concept, apply a label and call it a cyclical phenomenon.  Ice formation, CO2 formation, these too are cyclical.

Suppose an alien intelligence to have formed in an environment where everything is more truly cyclical than on Earth - a place where there is quite literally a time for every purpose under the alien's sun.  Such an intelligence might be cognitively incapable of even thinking about our linear time concept.  Time is an idealisation, a cognitive construct.  It has only as much physical reality about it as does a thought.

Your turn.  :)

Gerhard Adam's picture
I guess I'm not quite sure where you're going with this.  It's obvious that we don't experience a complete picture of reality, since our senses filter out irrelevant pieces of information, so we only have to deal with those items of pertinence to us. 

Similarly I don't have any argument as to why time to should be a separate reality versus a human abstraction any more than number theory is an abstraction.  However part of my fascination with mathematics is when we can discover an underlying reality by the use of an abstraction or how reality can be reflected in an abstraction.  There are certainly problems that are created because the abstraction of mathematics doesn't fully conform to reality, but the overlap is close enough so that the distinction can be easily overlooked.

As you indicated, there is a certain mechanistic linearity to our nervous systems, but just like your computer systems analogy, there is an order to which processing occurs and while clocking helps synchronize operations, the linearity of the operations is a function of how events unfold.  A occurs before B and as a consequence it results in a particular outcome. 

However, mathematics has the commutative property which indicates that for certain operations, order doesn't matter.  Similarly physics has many equations where there is no clear cut direction of time. 

I would suspect that the issue of time relates to a how we receive and process information.  This is at the heart of "spooky action at a distance", because we deal with all events as having a particular time direction and requiring an interval for information transfer. 

In the end, whether time is an abstraction of human thought or not, the problem is that we would have to invent it anyway to deal with some means of articulating a change from one event interval to another.  It's precisely how many differential equations work by examining the incremental change over time, so real or not, it becomes a necessary device to quantify those changes between intervals.

logicman's picture
A occurs before B and as a consequence it results in a particular outcome.

Before is a spatial notion. It means 'in front of', and was formerly used in that sense frequently in common speech.  In modern English we still use phrases such as, when driving: "It's just before the post offics."  But the sense of time that we were taught as children grabs hold of 'before' and stuffs it into our time paradigm.  Look at a map.  Where did the 'before' vanish to when translated from a 3-dimensional world onto a 2-dimensional map?  When using a map, we tend to refer to the 'sides' of things.  Time doesn't have sides.  How come, in going from a 3-d model to a 2-d model we actually gained an extra dimension that allows e.g. sides of town?

mathematics has the commutative property which indicates that for certain operations, order doesn't matter.

Agreed.  An example where it does matter is cryptology.  In a conventional process on a data stream all encryptions must be used in a last-on first-off sequence.  But commutative encryption is possible if you apply a different paradigm.

requiring an interval for information transfer.

That lies at the heart of my theory - what is the cause of the thing we call 'delay' which goes right to the heart of our intuitions about time?  I will cover that as the core material.

differential equations work by examining the incremental change over time, so real or not, it becomes a necessary device to quantify those changes between intervals.

I would say sufficient, but not necessary.  Other methods are possible. Any one of them might prove sufficient.  Solving the n-body problem requires sufficient and necessary components in a function such that any computational errors are trivial in cosmic timescales. Instead of time-slicing you can space-slice.  Instead of plotting planetary motions at incremental times, you could, perhaps, plot velocities at incremental locations, based on dealing with the objects in a logical sequence, as arrays of data (mass, vectors) in a computer program.  Although it is possible to think of such a program as time-slicing the problem, that's just an emergent property of a system controlled by an oscillator.  With the right hardware you could parallel-process the whole n-body problem with n processing cores in parallel, using Boolean logic.

Stellare's picture
On linguistics and physics.

To 'abstract' means 'to take out from', from the Latin word meaning 'to drag away.
What we abstract, we keep, we notice, we study. What remains is irrelevant, we are indifferent to it, we ignore it.

Even though I appreciate linguistics, it is not the same at mathematics and theoretical physics. The latter has evolved tremendously after the development of language. So abstraction means something else in mathematics and physics. Gerhard points to it when he talks about interpretation of mathematics. This is what we basically do in theoretical physics - do some math crunch and then try to understand what the results means in our physical world. Some of which is really hard to understand as they may appear counter intuitive. All the same they represent physical reality - if we get it right, that is.


Before is a spatial notion. It means 'in front of', and was
formerly used in that sense frequently in common speech.  In modern
English we still use phrases such as, when driving: "It's just before
the post offics."

I'm learning mandarin these days, and mandarin also use over and under almost equivalent with expressions of time as I understand it. It seem to be the same phenomena, only it is more in the vertical direction than the horizontal. But, I'm about to learn, so by all means correct me, if there are Chinese readers here :-)

However, these linguistics doesn't have any bearings in physics. There are certain things people cannot 'understand' in a physical way. We only have a notion of three spatial dimensions and we cannot think 'nothing'. All the same, those are real abstractions. We do have a notion of time, but it might be incomplete. We definitely do not understand it fully.

Time is cool! :-)

logicman's picture
I'm learning mandarin these days, and mandarin also use over and under
almost equivalent with expressions of time as I understand it. It seem
to be the same phenomena, only it is more in the vertical direction
than the horizontal

Bente:  I checked, and you are quite right.  In English, by way of contrast, I have found only two application of the vertical dimension: one 'up' metaphor and one down.  The metaphor is very much stretched, though.

Down: Second-user goods can be, e.g. great-grandma's hand-me-downs.
We also have ideas 'handed down' across the  years. (This one from Steven Pinker.)

Up:  We bring children up.  We want them to catch up with our level of development.


I have yet to find a left or right time metaphor.  I am inclined to believe there are none.

Stellare's picture
Lovely research, Patrick! I get a kick out of these silly things. The culture is very much embedded in the language, culture here including science of course. :-)

My son has set his mind on learning bad language Russian. That's right, he can swear like a maniac in Russian all learned from the generous source of information: the internets. What he has noticed are the references to situations that we by no means are able to understand unless you're a native of the culture. I will refrain from giving examples...:-)

Now I only beg he doesn't swear so well he gets himself killed over it. It is seriously bad language in both time and space, directions or no directions included. :-)

Becky Jungbauer's picture
To skew the metaphor even more: how can sit up and sit down? Stand up and stand down? Walk up the street and walk down the street?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Hmmm ... what about doing something "right now", or having things "left to do"?

logicman's picture
Bente:  1st rule of 2nd language acquisition: learn the 'naughty' words.  Then, when you travel, you can say things like "Oh &%$% I forget the word for such and such."

Becky&Gerhard:  Human languages have oddities in them because language is a human invention.

The acknowledged expert on these oddities is Richard Lederer.


Footnote:   can you all please put any fresh comments either at the end here, or in part 2.

Interesting! Doing something "right now" refers to the presence and having thing "left to do" refers to the future, so "right" comes before "left"; whereas time scales usually go from left to right (at least in western cultures). ;-)

But this is just a play on words whose meaning is overloaded ("left" being the past participle of "to leave", used in passive voice here; no idea about "right" though).

logicman's picture
theoretical physics. The latter has evolved tremendously after the
development of language. So abstraction means something else in
mathematics and physics.

Language is an example of evolution in progress.  It is developing even as I write this.  Democratically, even.  In an evolutionary parallel, language has its deleterious components.  For example, use of the phrase 'the exception that proves the rule' is not conducive to the understanding of science.  It used to be, when 'prove' meant 'test rigourously'.  But the best evolutionary parallel is when two vocabularies merge without their grammars.  The result is a 'creole'.

Linguistics, in the wide sense in which I use it here, encompasses observations in information theory, communications theory, cognitive theories and, yes, physics.  In fact, since all disciplines must use language, the investigation of the grammar and vocabulary of a discipline is most insightful.  Some of the useages are quite elegant, in the mathematical sense of that term.

Every discipline tries hard to compartmentalise words in order to use them as precision tools.  But the public carries on regardless.  The current problem with the theory-as-meticulously-crafted model vs theory-as-a-top-of-the-head-idea model is an example.  Perhaps we should start saying 'theorem' again?

All languages have terms for the vectors of locations in space, and motions in space, in both cases observer-relative and reference object-relative.  Even third-party-relative is possible. In many languages, such as English, we also have a pretty good range of reference-object viewpoint-relative terms.  'In front of' the book is not the same as 'the front' of the book, and can mean a location in the space outside of the book, or inside the book.
We only have a notion of three spatial dimensions and we cannot think 'nothing'.

I have no problem in imagining a tesseract.  Similarly, most people have no problem imagining 'nothing'.  The arabs even invented a symbol for it.  Zero is a universal symbol for 2 - 2 or whatever.  It can be explained.  It is a bucketful of something when you take that something away, but without the bucket.  It is an infinite cosmos sans matter sans energy, sans everything. 

My problem with the space-time hypothesis is this:  our notions of space and time can be shown to derive within our brains  directly from highly filtered information about matter and energy and nothing else.  It's not linguistics, its physics.

Math is a wonderful tool.  Without math we could never know about the massive electromagnetic spectrum that lies entirely outside of the miniscule portion that affects us directly.  Math predicted Neptune, Pluto, Helium, nuclear fission and fusion and the very binary computer that I am using to write this.

Pragmatic philosophy defines truth as whatever works for us, or 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.  Math works for us.  It is the most powerful tool we have.  My argument is merely that math can make a plethora of different models.  We can choose to think of space in the Euclidian abstraction of three dimension.  Or less.  Or more - four is nothing, why not a busy-beaver-number of higher dimensions?

A model is only as good as the productive answers it provides.  In everyday life, 3-d space + time ain't broke, so I'm not aiming to fix it.  What I am aiming for, what I am aiming to prove is the grand illusion of time.  I am going to show, in part two, how all clocks, without exception have just one common, non-trivial factor, and it isn't the counting of seconds, or any other unit.

I hope to have part two polished up for publication very soon.  Thank you again for your input - it really is most helpful in showing me the points I need to clarify in the next parts.  I love scientific debate.  It's like a friendly discussion in a bar, but without the bruises.  :)

Stellare's picture
English is not my mother tongue so I lack somewhat in expressing myself clearly. I give this another try. As a response to my
We only have a notion of three spatial dimensions and we cannot think 'nothing'.

you said:
I have no problem in imagining a tesseract.  Similarly, most people
have no problem imagining 'nothing'.  The arabs even invented a symbol
for it.  Zero is a universal symbol for 2 - 2 or whatever.  It can be
explained.  It is a bucketful of something when you take that something
away, but without the bucket.  It is an infinite cosmos sans matter
sans energy, sans everything.

My new attempt: We cannot have a non-abstract notion of 4+ dimensions and 'nothing'.

Even if we had no means of communicating (linguistics), the physical universe do exist - I have the impression that you link linguistics and physics at least partially wrong. :-)

Looking forward to your next piece of thoughts -  some 'time' in the future - what ever that is. :-)


logicman's picture
English is not my mother tongue so I lack somewhat in expressing myself clearly

I had a strong impression that English was your first language - your command of English is a lot better than many English-born people I have met.  I am absolutely serious.

Let me try the 'abstract' thing again.  Please treat it as a special use of the term in philosophy.

An example.  It is a demonstrable fact that you have to teach people the concepts of left and right by some sort of physical demonstration.  That observation was first made, if memory serves, by Carl Sagan.  If ever we made contact by radio or whatever with aliens, we could never express to them exactly how to differentiate left and right.  The assignment of these two words is completely arbitrary and mutually dependent.  Left and right have no demonstrable, universal  real existence.

All relative terms which derive from, or point to, 'leftness' or 'rightness' are likewise arbitrary and not physically or mathematically derivable from real entities.  So:  left, right, clockwise, anticlockwise, north south, east, west; all are arbitrary abstractions from our prior ( not a priori) notions of space.  Where, then is the north pole?  The real one?  The north pole doesn't have any real existence, but despite that, people find nothing strange in going there.

How can anyone possibly go to a place that has no real existence?  The answer to this paradox is the same as the answer to Zeno of Alea's paradox regarding the tortoise and Achilles.  We are natural born pragmatists.  We deal with Achilles and the tortoise as if Zeno's math is all wrong, without needing to know why it's all wrong.  Logic, i.e. our human, in-the-brain pragmatic logic says: "That is too silly to even think about."  And so, explorers and scientists will continue to visit the north pole, even if they agree with my formal logic.  Their pragmatic logic says to travel in a certain manner and to reach a certain goal "as if" there really is a north, and yes, a north pole.

Fridtjof Nansen  had a way with words.  I would have loved to read his description in scientific poetry of what it is like to stand on a mathematical abstraction where east and west vanish as if they never existed  (which they didn't) and where all paths lead only south.

By similar reasoning, much of what we strongly feel to be 'just common sense' can be shown to be built on mental abstractions dating back perhaps before language itself.  Take any of our current notions about the cosmos.  If it can be directly weighed, measured or felt through the senses or instruments* then it might be said to be real.  Gravity, for example.   Oh yes, Volts.  I can refuse to believe in electrons if I wish, but that will never prevent them killing me if I'm careless.  Not so with time. 

If an idea can only be traced back to such primitive mental constructs as the core abstractions of the mind, then we have no proof of its reality.  Our neural system of sensors and brain is a proven liar.  What it can't see doesn't exist.  So, that would be infra-red radiation then - and a whole lot of other demonstrables.  * A clock doesn't count, we cannot show the thing that it is believed to be measuring - why does science  give the  time belief system house room?  Clocks measure time, and time is what clocks measure.  Well, most clocks that we are familiar with do tend to be somewhat circular.

We know about the cosmos we inhabit by comparing like with like.  We can measure one wavelength, or frequency, against another, so the whole electromagnetic frequency is real.  We can measure microscopic fluctuations in pressure waves, so sound is real.  Mass? No problem.  Energy? No problem.  Time? 
Yes
problem.  It is what physics continues to call 'the problem of time'.  Does it even exist, or are we using it in an abstract as if  sense, just like those polar explorers?

And that is what I seek to address - as a scientific theory for discussion, debate, demolition even.  Just so long as human knowledge advances one iota I will be happy to have contributed to that.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I think you're really talking about two different things.  One is the notion of "time" itself and the other relates to how we measure such a thing.

It seems clear that events change in the universe, whether it be cyclical patterns, or some linear view of change, but there is always a difference between something we consider "before" and something we consider "after".  I am not suggesting what that difference might be, but only that something has changed.

Even primitive humans would've noted repetitive patterns such as the rising/setting of the sun, and seasons, constellations, etc.  In short, there would've have been an indication that some sort of repetitive pattern was occurring that marked cyclical changes (which also conveyed a sense of linear progression).

So, it seems that it is a safe bet to make the statement that in the absence of any detectable changes, then there is no time. 

When it comes to the abstraction that we use for time, is really not "time" itself, but rather to measure a repetitive pattern to determine how often that pattern recurs between changes.  In the case of the atomic clock we have formalized the definition to define a second based on the oscillations of cesium or hydrogen.  In all these cases, we are simply defining a consistently repetitive pattern to mark intervals so that they can be used to measure the difference (or elapsed separation) bet changes or events.

By analogy, an interesting perspective is that the concept or abstraction of time is much like the counting that occurs in music.  In many instances, passages in music may be marked by silence (which is counted to ensure that entry occurs at the proper interval).  In effect, it suggests that the measurement of time is actually nothing more than counting some agreed upon set of repetitive "beats" to have a consistent means of evaluating differences between events of interest. 

Since the counting of these "beats" is used to mark differences, it is easy to see how standardizing a particular metric for general usage would follow (i.e. seconds, minutes, etc.). 

This would lead me to conclude that time is meaningful only when detectable changes occur in the universe and that it represents a means of consistently marking out the frequency of those changes. 

Gerhard Adam's picture

The issue of Achilles and the tortoise was dealt with by indicating that the infinities involved are simply abstractions of the mind (stated by Aristotle).  This is a well-known outcome of the seeming paradox.   Similarly concepts like "left" and "right" are easily demonstrable by they exist by convention and not as independent facts (being a result of bilateral symmetry).


I would also suggest that you may think you can imagine nothing, but your use of the word infinite already introduces a problem, since, the universe is no such thing.  It is already an abstraction to refer to something as infinite (since it only exists in the mind).  In other words there is no "real world" manifestation of anything that could be called infinite.


In mathematics the objective is to be logically consistent and independent of linguistic idiosyncracies.  The concept of 2 + 2, isn't simply dropping an object's name, but it is contingent on developing a theory of counting, the legitimacy of adding 1 to derive the next number in a sequence, and ultimately the validity of adding two such values together to predict a third.  In short 2 + 2 is a complete abstraction and relates to nothing until we choose it to represent a particular set of objects.  Then we have ported the abstraction of mathematics into the real world and find that it is useful and works for us.

In fact, quantum physics specifically ignores the interpretation of language in evaluating the physical phenomenon that represents reality.  In this case, the mathematics is the only way to demonstrate what is "real" and language is limited precisely because of its origins in our experience only.



logicman's picture
I just caught your second post before shutting down the computer.
Then we have ported the abstraction of mathematics into the real world and find that it is useful and works for us.

This is the as if aspect of modelling that I refer to.  If it produces results then it is pragmatic to accept the validity of the math as applied math.

But one of the tasks of philosophy, some would say its metatask, is to separate what we really know from what we think we know. I am saying that we act in our daily lives and in our inquiries into the physical world as if we know what time is.  Now, that may be pragmatic, but it doesn't explain where this notion called time springs from.  Most of what we know is traceable back in the history of knowledge to what anyone can personally experience or observe, with or without tools.  If someone jumped off a cliff, he or she would intuit a substantial force of nature - briefly -  which the onlookers' descendants would later come to know as 'gravity'.

In fact, quantum physics specifically ignores the interpretation of language in evaluating the physical phenomenon that represents reality.  In this case, the mathematics is the only way to demonstrate what is "real" and language is limited precisely because of its origins in our experience only.

 But all of human language has its origins in our experience only - and after inventing language, our ancestors went on to use it as a tool to invent math.  Now that is most definitely a one-way function.  You cannot use math to invent a human-useable language - it's been tried. 

It is possible to use math to further abstract itself - as e.g. Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory.  You can then use that to furnish some elegant theories that are true for all of math, being a meta-language for math.  But true theories about e.g. undecidability apply to the mathematical theory and meta-theory only.  Never forget that human language is the meta-language which describes all of math including the meta-theories of math.  By analogy, I can use a hand tool to build a more powerful tool, e.g. a machine tool.  But what I add in power, I take away in versatility. 

Math is a powerful tool, but its true power lies in its user.  For that reason, I have the greatest admiration for mathematicians in general.  Not being myself a mathematician, I bow to their skills and knowledge.  But if any mathematician wants to convince me that her or his ink marks on paper demonstrate that time really exists as an energy or substance - or that space exists, or spacetime for that matter, in the absence of any experimental real-world proof, I will happily debate the matter until the proverbial cows come home.

Which they did hours ago in the UK, so once again, I bid you a very good night.

logicman's picture
This would lead me to conclude that time is meaningful only when
detectable changes occur in the universe and that it represents a means
of consistently marking out the frequency of those changes.

You have a solid core of observable data there:  detectable changes.   And a clock is but a means to correlate those changes according to the known laws of physics as if time really existed.  But the as if is just a useful pragmatic tool, in my submission.

Yes, there are virtually infinite changes going on in the cosmos.  We have no law of physics to say why these changes aren't going on in the reverse sense.  What essential component of the cosmos prevents all possible changes from being reversible?  Why is it that the proverbial 'all the king's horses and all the king's men' -  a metaphor for powerful forces  - can't cause an egg to be 'unsmashed'.

I won't be long, I hope, with part 2.  That will be a short history of clocks - horology if you like. 
I suggest that the first hint of a sense of time predates language.  There are many natural phenomena that rather neatly slice up the day/night cycle.  From an anthropocentric viewpoint there are more for the day than the night.  A single example: the dawn chorus.  (I think most city dwellers will never have heard this.)

Our 'biological clock' doesn't give us an intuitive sense of time, and wasn't discovered until long after the invention of clocks.  It is called a clock only by simple analogy.  It's a rhythm controller -  like the 'clock' in a digital device like the computer, or like the conductor of an orchestra.

The notion of time as something 'real', and the notion of time as something we measure, are two sides of the same coin.  It is impossible to measure 'nothing', so what is it that clocks measure if not time?  I'll make a suggestion in part 2 and elaborate in part 3. 

Meanwhile, it is way past my bed 'time', so I'll bid you a very good night.

to be continued ...

Gerhard Adam's picture
"And a clock is but a means to correlate those changes according to the known laws of physics as if time really existed."

Does it matter?  As I indicated, it's simply a way to consistently measure the interval between events.  It effect, it's like asking does a "rest" in music exist?  Since it is the absence of sound, it becomes a weird definition to talk about something as real when it only represents the absence of something else.  Similarly what is a "quarter note" or a "half note" except to define the duration of the note before silence separates it from the next note.  No matter how short the silence, it is this separation that actually defines what we call music and creates the illusion of "smoothness" or "speed" in the way the notes are presented.

"What essential component of the cosmos prevents all possible changes from being reversible?"

This appears to be a consequence of quantum physics, since the universe will always progress from an ordered state to a disordered state which represents the "arrow of time".    This occurs because we can never return anything to its previous state, because it is ultimately unknowable.  This phenomenon exists because the universe is assymetrical and because of this "imbalance", the direction of time occurs.

As mentioned previously, the concept of a clock is only to mark the intervals between events of interest.  This is precisely why we recognize the need to adjust clocks to "resynchronize them" because we "lose" seconds (or time) when the clock no longer accurately reflects the ordering of events as we observe them.
In fact, it is precisely this discrepancy of clocks that needs to be accommodated in relativity since our "models" of the universe would be in error if we didn't take into account the variations of time perspective when assessing simultaneity.

Once again, it doesn't particularly matter whether time is an abstraction or not, because it works (even if alternatives might also work).  Just as it doesn't matter what the full infinite value of PI is to make it useful.  We already recognize that these are simply the result of our idealized mathematical views and don't actually have much of an effect on the reality they are measuring. 

Gerhard Adam's picture
I also think that in some ways we're agreeing that time does not actually have a separate physical existence beyond the word that we use to describe the interval between events.  This is why I'm indicating that it is useful, since I'm not suggesting that that is a sufficient reason to declare it a "real" phenomenon.

While time may not be intuitive, it is clear that the human brain is quite adept at recognizing patterns, so it isn't much to imagine that when humans experienced cyclical events (i.e. day/night, seasons, etc.) they realized that it might be handy to be able to predict when such events would recur.  This undoubtedly lead to the astronomical observations that helped them to recognize that events would occur when a particular constellation was seen in the sky (indicating seasonal changes).  After a time, this would have become formalized to be more independent of external events and lead to the creation of a calendar. 

I would agree that the sense of time is learned, just as our concept of counting.  These are learned elements that are not intuitive but reflect our use of abstractions to make sense of the world.  In effect, it could be argued that these abstractions are simply our mental models of the universe and can't accurately reflect reality, but nevertheless give us the necessary parameters to formalize our understanding of the universe's operation.

To return to my example of music, the concept of timing in music is a similar abstraction to simply provide a structure against which notes are played.  In fact, there are some songs that stretch the boundaries of our "tolerance" to manipulating timings, but they never become chaotic which would render them unstructured and not in line with our view of what music should be.  In no way am I suggesting that this makes time a real independent entity, but rather that it, once again, simply marks our progress from one event to another.

Just like in mathematics, we can almost consider our "sense of time" to be axiomatic and not derivable from simpler principles.

logicman's picture
Gerhard:  Firstly, and most importantly, thank you for taking the time and trouble to go into this much depth with your arguments.  It is very helpful to me in making sure that I cover as many bases as possible.

Books about time, blogs, and even many writings by scientists treat the design of clocks, universal time and synchronisation problems as if that is all.  I once read a book (unfortunately I can't recall the title or author to give credit where due) which treated the argument that, since hearing is, in the author's view, a purely linear process then our sense of time must have developed form that source.

Unfortunately, simply because we live 'in' time it is exceedingly hard to mentally 'jump outside'.  But various tools, not least of which is the linguistics component of cognitive science, help in getting a 'feel' for how we understand time, and how we use the concept.  We have two basic pragmatic models of time: objective and subjective.  It is for that very reason, I submit, that it is so very hard to avoid  anthropocentricicity in scientific   modelling of time.

In passing, and illustrative of the way we can readily deform our time model to fit any circumstance, what aspect of time makes it appear to be a container?
If you can fill the unforgiving minute

  With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

  And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

If Rudyard Kipling.

Just like in mathematics, we can almost consider our "sense of time" to be axiomatic and not derivable from simpler principles.

- and most of the time we do.

But when we look at the former axioms of chemistry and physics we are amused, because we have dug down beneath the noachian flood and found another flood, and another, and yet another.  We still use the term affinity, but let us never forget that it was derived from a theory that said the chemical materials were somehow drawn or attracted to each other.  When that idea  kicked off, the terms as then commonly used meant that perhaps somehow, atoms liked each other.

My point here, I suppose, is that in all other areas, science has swept the board so magificently that our ancestors would think we were magicians.  We would appear to them to be in control of matter and energy.  But not time.  If time is something that can't be controlled, I want to know the why of it.  Don't you?

to be continued ?

Footnote:  an experiment in linguistics.  Did you spot the deliberate typo?

Gerhard Adam's picture
I'm assuming that you didn't mean "magificently", however your use of "form" instead of "from" looks like it could be deliberate.

"what aspect of time makes it appear to be a container?"

If time is simply a "counter" of intervals between events, then we perceive an opportunity to "fill" each interval with more events (and therefore maximize our use of time).  Similarly when we don't do anything, we view it was "wasting" time.  We can't control it, because it is the basic "heartbeat" of the universe itself.   Therefore as the universe continues it's entropic march, time continues unimpeded.

It is interesting to note that the one point where we experience no time is when we sleep or dream.  In that case we are operating in a completely self-contained mental state and not taking account of external events in the way we normally would when conscious. 

I also think that one of the reasons why time has become so important to us is that it is the basis by which predictions are made.  Science unequivocally requires the concept of time to make predictions of how phenomenon are expected to behave in the "future".  Similarly since our brains provide a vehicle for operating in a completely internal fashion (i.e. ability to construct stories and fantasies).  The concept of time becomes an important ingredient for our ability to plan a "future" action and anticipate how events will unfold in some future time.

I suspect that animals similarly have a rudmentary sense of time, just like they do with counting, but it is simplistic and not refined to serve except in the short term (I know, small time interval).  In the end it comes down to the fact that events occur in a certain order and (by inductive reasoning), they have never been observed to occur otherwise.  Therefore by marking the beats, we have a means by which we can assess changes and predict future outcomes.

I don't think it's fair to say it is anthropocentric because the concept of change is intrinsic in the universe itself, although it is uniquely human to have a means by which we mark such change.  I think that this mechanism is also closely tied to our mathematical views in suggesting the concepts of "first" and "last".  Since we can perform such operations on any numbered set, it is a logical extension to include events as another set that can be counted and measured.

logicman's picture
I think that this mechanism is also closely tied to our mathematical
views in suggesting the concepts of "first" and "last".  Since we can
perform such operations on any numbered set, it is a logical extension
to include events as another set that can be counted and measured.

I can go with that.  Many of our notions about time can be shown to be derived from, or that they imply the existence of, ordered series.


The term 'anthropocentric' is often used as a broad-brush term for modern, thinking, speech-using human's view of the universe.  Try to imagine a pre-language human.  Something more than animal, something less than us.  Quite apart from the morphological factors in the body that allowed speech, there must have been neuromorphological changes prior to that.  But already perceptions are being formed that make the cosmos fit the human, rather than the human fitting the cosmos.  I think it is what I would call a pragmatic cognitive function of the brain.

An enhanced ability to categorise and memorise would surely have massive survival value, in the evolutionary sense.  Take the ability to make noises of specific types. Add a means by which some neurons trigger specific noises.  Now the big leap forward in brain evolution:  add mirror neurons.  You now have a brain segment that can recognise sound patterns in terms of being able to produce them.  Computer models of grammar fall down here.  They tend to be models of input or models of output.  But why have one model for input and one for output when a single mechanism can handle both?

Apply this model to the notion of time, space, the universe and everything.  Evolution need add only one more component to the mix:  the acquisition instinct, as one might call it.  Now, if you accept the mirror-neuron model and add an acquisitive drive, it seems to apply to every category that the brain can invent.  Here we have a developing human brain, filled with categories drawn from experience, and a tool called language that just wants to label everything it can.

Hey!  There's a category with an empty slot here.  Let's invent a label and ...  Suddenly, our ancestor is able to communicate with a neighbour about this strange new abstract concept 'frozen water', or 'fire' or, yes, 'time'.  And yes, it would be a component of our predictive powers.

The deliberate error:  'form' was not deliberate, so well spotted.
The typos and spelling errors most likely to be skipped by the brain are the ones in long words.
Our built-in error checker is usually opaque, and so doesn't  force itself into our awareness.  When a very common word is encountered and is obviously wrong, we usually spot it.
anthropocentricicity  - the error is hard to spot even when you are told it's there.  The human parser is easily fooled.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Interesting point.  I suspect it involves the fact that there is almost too much information available in the word, so we already recognize what's meant, and therefore gloss over the rest of it.  The less likely that a word may be construed as ambiguous, the greater the likelihood that we don't scrutinize it as closely and tend to skip spelling errors.

logicman's picture
The less likely that a word may be construed as ambiguous, the greater
the likelihood that we don't scrutinize it as closely and tend to skip
spelling errors.


Very well phrased!  
Feed that idea with some numbers and you get to have a whole new law of language named after you!

Gerhard Adam's picture
Thank you, but I suspect I might be more aptly accused of breaking such laws as creating them.

But within the context of what I was trying to say, I think (linguistically speaking) we are talking about individuals that have a good phoneme awareness, so that when they decode a word, it is already being anticipated (especially in context).  Therefore we would tend to not process the specific details of the word and as long as the spelling isn't completely butchered it may escape detection as an error.  I think that you could probably conduct a linguistic experiment that would show that spelling errors within a well-understood context are more difficult to see than those that would occur from a context-free situation (such as a list).

Gerhard Adam's picture
"An enhanced ability to categorise and memorise would surely have massive survival value, in the evolutionary sense."

I still maintain that the first element is the ability to abstract (or one view might be to consider taking our "dream state" into a conscious one).  At this point humans have the ability to recognize events or objects that aren't physically present. 

From this perspective your idea of using sounds to create a relationship between the abstraction and the recognition of the sound representing the object or event.  From this point, it seems that a workable language could've evolved rather quickly.

It is interesting to note that language doesn't actually do much good during an actual hunt, so it's primary value would come from being able to plan or anticipate an action in the future.  This is where I can see the need for language to express the abstractions as well as how time would've become more intuitive since all such "conversations" would have invariably involved future events.

logicman's picture
From this perspective your idea of using sounds to create a relationship between the abstraction and the recognition of the sound representing the object or event.  From this point, it seems that a
workable language could've evolved rather quickly.


It is interesting to note that language doesn't actually do much good during an actual hunt, so it's primary value would come from being able to plan or anticipate an action in the future.  This is where I can see the need for language to express the abstractions as well as how time would've become more intuitive since all such "conversations" would have invariably involved future events.

Here, you are not just echoing my own thoughts but adding an underscore and a harmony.
You could have a whole new career in linguistics.  :)
a workable language could've evolved rather quickly.

The 'language spurt' is observable as part of a child's language acquisition:article
The 'language spurt' in evolution is a current topic of debate:free pdf

all such "conversations" would have invariably involved future events.

And that, my friend, addresses the correct question, to paraphrase a character in the movie 'I,Robot."
Planning a strategy implies a pragmatic acceptance of the general predictability of nature.

engaging conversation everyone.

Sometimes there's a tendency to think that if something's just a fiction (or abstraction) of the mind, then it isn't true at all. But unfortunately that sort of dichotomous thinking - also a fiction of the mind - can do just as much injustice. It's one thing to accept that that time might not be as absolutely absolute as one might think at first; it's another to then conclude that it's entirely artificial. In all likelihood, it's more of a question of degree, (as I think the theory of relativity attests to).

Take religion for example, just b/c it's so often placed of science. Similar versions of It exist across all cultures, going back for most or all of recorded history. That religion developed in man is no accident. Even if you disagree w/religious beliefs, you must admit that it fits so uniquely into the human mind that there's *something* true about it even if it's not true in the absolute sense. Time is embedded in us in a deeper level than religion, & correspondingly it might be that much more "true" than religion.

Looking over evolutionary history - the generations upon generations of survival pressures that have formed the human mind - I have difficulty minimizing things as "just" fictions or abstractions of the mind, as being an abstraction of the mind is pretty significant in & of itself. Of course this can lead to misconceptions when misapplied - like, "I'm going to the outer space honey, I'll be back when I'm 50" - but that doesn't make it altogether useless.

Gerhard Adam's picture

 "That religion developed in man is no accident."

I think it may well have been an accident (or sorts anyway).  A fundamental problem to all humans is how knowledge is conveyed to future generations.  If we go back to more primitive times, we can eliminate all the current methods of recording knowledge and get back to first principles.

To improve the chances of survival it becomes critical to convey as much information as possible to offspring that may be too young to have the necessary analytical capability to process it.  Therefore, it is easiest to convey complex ideas in the form of a story, as a sort of mnemonic device. 

This is why one of the common themes that we see in all religious systems is the wide range of stories that are all intended to convey some lesson or idea.   A story is often more effective to get the point across because the nature of the process precludes analysis and tends to operate at an almost emotional level.

Using this vehicle it isn't hard to see that the more important the story is, the more "authority" it needs to possess if it is to have any long-term power.  Embellishing stories to go beyond teaching lessons to explaining origins and the role of people would serve as a cohesive bond for any group.  This common mythology would be the unifying force that blends the stories and the history of a people together.  From here, it is virtually guaranteed that it becomes religion whether or not a divine being is introduced.  This would also be the basis for the oral traditions we normally associate with any society.


It is also important to consider that in times of stress we are unusually prone to looking for help or seeking assistance for any quarter.  Coincidences or anything that makes us feel better (or better able to cope with circumstances) would be a powerful force in our existence.  I don't think it's any coincidence that the modern day equivalent is the individual that "finds" Jesus after a term in prison.



Yeah but religion forms a large pool of evidence for deriving those ideas or truths or perspective about humans. & insofar as it's so essential & revelatory to human nature, there's something "true" about it, albeit not in an absolute sense. & furthermore had some other edifice formed in order to better meet all of those ends (eg, comforting in times of stress, passing on morals) it most likely would have. In that sense, religion is no mistake.

The obvious discrepancy is that what is true for humans, or for our minds, doesn't automatically apply to the whole universe; but my point is that that criticism can only go so far. Even if religion can be dumbed down to a combination of the qualities you point out, then it still leaves one in awe as such a powerful & widespread means to that end. Likewise with time.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I think you give it too much credit.  A human being kept in total isolation would still develop a belief system based on their own experiences.  If after some period of time they were to suddenly encounter others, they may well share some of those views and may even conclude that there is some "higher" meaning to their common shared experiences.  This is all a natural flow in the way humans structure their belief systems and the significance that they assign to them.

This is so fundamental to human existence, we even think it worthy of consideration in our romantic encounters when we are surprised at "how much we have in common".  

I think you're using the word "truth" in a somewhat inappropriate way, although I could see where you might argue that it represents a common worldview or "reality" to the believers.  Whether they be religious, UFO believers, psychic phenomenon, cultists, etc.  The point is that these various groups all share a common belief that represents reality to them and it is the way they will filter all the data from the world.

"I think you're using the word "truth" in a somewhat inappropriate way"

Truth is a relative term, & it has to be applied to a somewhat self-contained system that appears to use logic. There's the notion of internal consistency, & a more general sort of external applicability or salience about the world - the 2 sometimes appear to tradeoff. It's hard to conceive of an absolute truth, aside from the internally consistent ones (eg, 2+2=4); & furthermore internal consistency alone is inadequate for constructing models or "abstracting".

"I think you give it too much credit."

That's not to become a moral relativist or whatever & say that you can't say anything about the world. But there is a basic truth in patterns. If you see things emerging throughout nature over & over & over again, particularly in places where you might not expect, or perhaps laterally, then you're onto something hot, as you're combining multiple seemingly unrelated phenomena under fewer & relatively simpler phenomena or models.

Too often science outwardly appears to be concerned w/yes or no questions: Is a theory supported or isn't it? The yes-or-no answers maybe important in some absolute sense - for instance, is there a god or isn't there? - but even if you could answer such a question, you can't overlook the salience that religion has for mankind. To bring us back down to reality, this mirrors the autism-vaccine debate: Scientists seem to have answered "no", but somehow cries from the public have only become stronger.

The other day I was listening to a moving account from a cancer survivor who had found refuge in God during her chemo, embraced Jesus thru months of physical toil & mental doubt, & came out of it cured w/a renewed vigor to embrace life. I was quite touched, tho I'm an athiest. Even if you answer "no" to the religion question, you have to admit that there's a truth - a salience - in how religion sits in the heart of men. Robert Pirsig saw it (call it truth, salience, quality) as that point where objective & subjective realities meet.

Gerhard Adam's picture

While there might not be an "absolute truth", that doesn't mean that "truth" can't be derived from a comparison between two pieces of information.  The majority of people may believe in angels, or Elvis sightings, but regardless of how internally consistent their viewpoint may be, in the absence of supporting data, we can only conclude that that is their belief.  Their sense or perspective of "truth" doesn't make it so. 


This is no different than the legal criteria of telling the truth, since if an individual truly believes what they are saying, they may consider it to be true, but in the absence of corroborating evidence, it's still just hearsay and unreliable (note I didn't say inadmissable).


Even in the autism-vaccine debate, there are still studies being conducted to see if there are any relationships, but some of the suspected relationships don't exist, and it is unequivocal.  People that are insisting otherwise are simply wrong (the mercury debate, when mercury isn't in the vaccines).


I have no quarrel with people using any psychological device that helps them through a crisis, be it their religious views, doing crossword puzzles, or solving differential equations.  They are all just devices, and whatever works is good.  I have been equally intrigued by many discussions surrounding philosophical perspectives of life, other culture's perspectives, etc. but it doesn't render them true.  Each serves a purpose in allowing us to focus our minds on what makes the most sense to us, so that we can cope with our situation.  This is no different than the psychology employed in the military to build unit cohesion, and the stories we tell ourselves about our role or how important we see it.  In many ways, this becomes even more important when we have to rationalize the sacrifices that are made for vague ideas or objectives. 


My point is that all of these things may serve a legitimate purpose to an individual, but their pervasiveness doesn't grant them any special status as "truth".  Throughout history people have believed all manner of nonsense and its widespread acceptance still made it just as wrong.



logicman's picture
Now just watch for someone who reads this the wrong way and calls you a cynic.

But I agree with you.  Are these ideas that you are yourself working on?  I see a strong tie-in here between theories of the aspects of biological evolution and of language evolution.

A story is often more effective to get the point across because the nature of the process precludes analysis and tends to operate at an almost emotional level.

Which is a favourite trick of the lawyer and the politician.  Perhaps that is a little too cynical, but there is truth in it.  Successful public speakers have an anecdotal style.  It is a heck of a lot more effective at getting a point across than the dry assertion of facts.

Which is it better to say:
"We few are here with our little ships and they are over there with a lot more and bigger ships, but hey! Let's just all try our best and we may just win."
or
"England expects that every man will do his duty."

Gerhard Adam's picture
Actually it's something I've encountered in business, technology, and in simply trying to teach my kids.  Often when explaining something we get so bogged down in the details that we forget that we are actually telling a story.  Part of the purpose in a story is to engage the listener so that they "care" about the outcome or the characters in it.  So when explaining something scientific or technical, while we don't have to resort to Mr. Electron, we certainly need to consider if what we're explaining is coherent (in the sense of beginning, middle, and end), and are we explaining why this is something the listener should care about?

logicman's picture
Although I am somewhat religious, I never felt comfortable with theological explanations of ethical considerations.  I have little regard for the utilitarian theories of 'good deeds'.  Perhaps I never stopped using what I have come to describe as the quistic mode of language: language can operate as a means of command and control, the imperatic mode, and as a means of inquiry into our environment, the quistic mode.   The quistic mode has a much greater diversity of expression.   I much prefer the quistic mode.
explaining why this is something the listener should care about

I call this the  "Who gives a &$%" problem.
The above is imperitic.  It isn't a question. It isn't even a rhetorical question. It isn't a social request, like "please do such and such."  It is a rude imperative with a social-norm meaning of "I'm not interested so go away and stop annoying me."  Or a condensed and pithy version thereof.

This may relate to your ideas about belief systems. It is a philosophical 'what if' model.

If my imperitic/quistic dichotomy has any underlying reality in the mind - brain if you like - then how might that impact on our belief systems?  If one had a stronger imperitic grasp of language, would one fit in better in a military dictatorship?  At any level?  Would one tend to be compliant, or dominant?

Now take the quistic side, that is, a person who tends to seek answers or one who seeks to be able to provide answers.  What sort of society would that person fit?  A democracy perhaps?

How might two people at the extremes of an imperitic/quistic social amalgam interact?  Could they  communicate anything substantial of their ideas to each other?  Or would each be inherently incapable of grasping the other's viewpoint?

All of which has little to do with the concept of time, except that time is, I am confident, inextricably bound up with both imperatic and quistic uses of language.   Compare Now! with Now?

Gerhard Adam's picture
You mean right NOW?!?!

logicman's picture
Thanks for your input Kerrjac.

In saying that time is not real, I am not saying that our notion of time has absolutely no physical foundation whatsoever.   Well, perhaps it may seem that way.  As soon as I get part 2 tidied up, I'll show what is is that all clocks have in common apart from counting.  It is an aspect of physics that is commonly glossed over, as being not very exciting.

My intention is, so to speak, to publicly take time to bits to show what it isn't, and then show the underlying common element of all the bits.  It's like taking a car battery to bits to show that it seems to be, to first approximation,   just plastic, lead and water.  It is not so long since there were some odd ideas about how chemicals made electricity.  Now that we know about electrochemistry, we can show a diagram with +ions and -ions.  In the case of time, we can't go that far.  Yet.

Remember the planetary model of the atom?  It was wrong, but it pointed the way.  So, what I am trying to acheive here is, by comparison, a rough sketch - look at time 'this way' not 'that way' and you may get a fresh insight.  I am confident that we intuitively can only grasp time to a first approximation.  Fortunately, the scientific method can take us far beyond intuition.

Tomorrow I plan to have a polishing session, so that I can post up part 2 of this.

Looking forward to it, especially to the clock part.

logicman's picture
Gerhard:
I have no quarrel with people using any psychological device that helps them through a crisis, be it their religious views, doing crossword puzzles, or solving differential equations.

Or politicians giving security blanket a whole new meaning?  Cordon sanitaire isn't about kitchen hygeine.

we would tend to not process the specific details of the word and as long as the spelling isn't completely butchered it may escape detection as an error.  I think that you could probably conduct a linguistic experiment that would show that spelling errors within a well-understood context are more difficult to see than those that would occur from a context-free situation (such as a list).

It's been done.

In any text, the initial and final letters of words are much more significant than the medials.  Word length is also a major clue in recoding, but if a word is of length > 5 then medials become more important.

T**t  *s  w*y  y*u  a*d  I  h**e  l*t**e  t***b*e  r**d**g  t**s.

In the case of the typo which I insist on calling a transpotision, reading is a doddle, as also omissions.

As yuo cna see evne a very long wrod like rdundnt is autmaticly crected by the brian.

Language is massivly redundant, i.e. contains error-correcting components, most particularly speech.

In an environment filled with noise, sound shadows and echoes, redundancy has survival value.
The question about how the brain 'predicted' writing in order to create a redundancy mechanism is easily answered.  Our visual mechanisms are also massively redundant, perhaps more so than our hearing mechanisms.

Final thought for now:
Given the unconscious error-correcting capacities of the ear, why do we miss so many errors in speech, and yet consciously notice the tiniest error in music?

That is a whole new blog topic for somewhen.

Stellare's picture
The error-correcting components in our brains are why I always try to 'sleep on' my writings. We go 'blind' and either need to sleep on it, get some distance, or have somebody else take a look at the gold coming out of our brains. :-)

logicman's picture
have somebody else take a look at the gold coming out of our brains.


Er, that would be peer review, then?

That is a wonderful turn of phrase, Bente.  Sheer poetry!

General Relativity proposes that we cannot ascertain whether two events in spacetime happen at the same time. That has to do with Einsteins model of a 4D continuum rather than with reality. Don't forget that it is the model assumption that makes us measure or calculate in a certain way. The two-slit experiment already shows the weakness of that model and the photon/wave duality is a stopgap solution for that, as is its quantum mechanical equivalent the probability wave collapse. All mathematical abstraction is exactly the same, a language model that ONLY CAN find answers that fit the initial assumptions. And that is fine if such abstraction fits the purpose. It has however no relevance to other models and their assumptions and possibly very different conclusions. Tricks such as renormalization and presumed symmetry or hypersymmetry are also such stopgap solutions to ignore and avoid the weaknesses of our models.

I think that one of the most ignored models for a long time is the question of space topology. Simple geometry will most probably be the answer to some of the most intriguing questions. Building on a simple model will provide mostly simple answers and be most probably approximately correct according to Ockham. I propose that there will be no mathematical proof possible from within this universe as all mathematical models are also part of this system. It will be an intuitive flash of acceptance at best.

On the subject of time, I propose that it is no more than an energetic concept. It has no independent existence but is most likely an integral cause/effect of an (resonant) energy exchange. We see the trouble with causality in quantum mechanics when we try to observe/measure without influencing the measurement. That is true for any energy exchange. The receiver is as relevant as the sender. Thus there is no causality and there is no independent time, meaning before and after the event. Energetic exchanges are only causally relevant in terms of entangled items and the only common entity we can assume is that all energy of this universe is entangled to the Big Bang. Even if we measure the Higgs Boson it only means that the model required it. It is no different to drowning a presumed witch to proof innonence.

it seems likely that the universe is timeless and non-local, which somehow even moots the question of a quantum field lattice. Time and thus causality cannot exist from a philosophical perspective as there could be no free will. There are no light waves or photons that float through empty space unentangled. They would not exist. Spontaneous photon emission is mathematically possible but not plausible as where would the energy of photons/waves go in the vastness of empty space without a receiver. I propose that each photon interacts with a well defined receiver that goes into resonance now and not millions of light years apart. Time and distance are just energy shaping attributes of the entanglement complex. Just read your quantum mechanics formulas again and drop the speed of light assumption of Einstein. Bells Theorem proposes that we cannot attribute reality as a presumed situation, but only as a measure of now.

Yes, time is an abstract concept and no more. You can throw a lot of widely accepted theories at me, but that's all they are and scientists would do well to accept that and be a bit more humble in their ignorance.

Gerhard Adam's picture
CURSE YOU PATRICK LOCKERBY!!!!!!  :)

This whole discussion has started to make me wonder about the role of time in quantum entanglement and the "action at a distance" problems.  It also made me think about whether classical physics could be re-expressed in terms that might be independent of time (and special relativity as well).

Since I'm no Isaac Newton or Einstein, needless to see this is definitely causing some serious nerve cell damage in my own brain, as I try to come to terms with these concepts.  The upside may well be, that I can find out what the limits for my own brain processing capabilities actually are :))))


Becky Jungbauer's picture
Remind me never to write about quantum entanglement. I do not think I would like being cursed by Gerhard, someone far more insightful and intelligent than I am.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Becky ... you are far too kind. 

Gerhard Adam's picture
This has given rise to Adam's Uncertainty Principle which states simply:

"I am uncertain about virtually everything I thought I knew"

Becky Jungbauer's picture
I have been trying to follow the conversation; this isn't my specialty and while I think I grasp the overall picture I know I'm missing nuances. Regardless, you always have thoughtful and intelligent contributions to discussions, and I appreciate that. And I agree - the older I get and the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. How ironic.

Anyway, as a clarification for my own understanding, you mentioned above that time is a way to consistently measure the interval between events, and also that the notion of time is separate (?) from how to measure it. First, did I misunderstand? Second, can time be both the notion and the measure?

Also, in several places children have come up, and I notice that a child's sense of "time" is totally different from an adult's. Waiting for a birthday party, or dinner time, or for summer vacation to start, seemed like forever. Now I can't believe that it's already the end of March - time flew by. The intervals are the same - one day is now as it was when I was a child, but my perception of that interval has changed. (I'm speaking in the linear sense of time, not cyclical.) Is one more correct than the other?

Gerhard Adam's picture

Regarding the child's perception of time, my own personal "theory" is that it may be linked to one's longevity.  In other words a month to a 5 year old represents 1/60 of their life, while to a 50 year old, it would represent 1/600th of their life. 

In other words, as we live longer, each unit of time becomes a smaller and smaller part of our total "time experience" that it appears to move faster since we have a longer sense of time with which to compare it.

I've also found a curious correlation to the idea that the more events we engage in, the slower time seems to go, whereas when we have little to distinguish an interval, it seems to go faster.  Once again, I suspect that the more we have happening during any given interval, the more it seems we've accomplished so it satisfies our sense that "time was not wasted".  Therefore it seems that it moved "slower".

Bear in mind that the last example, specifically relates to our interpretation in hindsight, so it doesn't necessary reflect our perspective when it's happening.

Regarding the first part of your question:


If time is simply a "notion" of how we experience changes in events, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has an actual existence (i.e. a property of reality or the universe).  It simply means that from our brain's perspective we are seeing a cause-effect relationship that seems to be consistence in how we experience the world.  Therefore since this is simply our own internal perception, we can derive any means by which we can create "change" and use that as a measure against other events. 


When I say "create change", I mean that it is our invention of clocks which by a system of oscillations or gears (or whatever) provides a consistently rhythmic set of changes which we use to represent our view of how time flows.  So even when we perceive nothing changing, the clock itself is to let us see how an interval as elapsed.


You can see the problem here, is that the only units of measure we have are those that WE have specifically derived, so it is hard to disassociate time as a unit of measure and as a "notion".


When we get into something like relativity where we can experience "time dilation" (time slowing down), we have to answer the question of is time actually different or is it simply our measurement of it?  The point is that our reference frame determines how we interpret clocks in another reference frame, so the implication is that time itself is unaffected, but only our measurement of it between different reference frames is involved.


Once again, we haven't actually established a separate existence for time as an actual property of the universe, but only of our ideas of simultaneity and measurement.


In a nutshell, consider how time could be measured without a clock?  What if there were no time signatures in music?  What would the concept of time mean if there were no changes (and no clocks)? 


Note that in the last question, this would have to be independent of an observer, since the observer's body itself would contain rhythms that promote measurement.



Becky Jungbauer's picture
Interesting thoughts...per Patrick's request, I'll respond in part 2.

logicman's picture
Gerhard:  The curse worked.  :)


I am sitting here at the tail end of my third migraine this week, with a high temperature.

Everybody:  thank you all for your inputs.  I've read the comments posted since my last login.  I'll respond later, over in  part 2.

Bla .. bla ... bla ... why do you post this nonsense on a blog that titles itself scientific blogging?

Signing off ...

logicman's picture
Max:  If you believe that I am writing nonsense,
why do you agree with my core idea on your own blog site?
I am saying that just because we have a mathematical model,
that is no proof of the reality of what is being modelled.

You phrase this as:
Mathematics are not the cause of certain effects in nature but they are models that describe certain levels of natural activity.

You are not being consistent with yourself.

Please accept my condolences on your recent sad loss.

I think that your skeptical approach to what is currently accepted is a healthy one. We must never, as scientists, assume that we have a correct understanding, just because we have a valid model. That is why time remains such a fascinating dimension to experiment with. It is one of those physics questions that is interesting to everyone who likes sci-fi, or just day dreaming. Experimental data however does exist, and more experiments are being done. In a world of satellite tracking, (GPS etc), the importance of time measurement is all the more crucial, and the time constants which are used, very well verify general relativity. Let’s find more data though, and more experiments, and as if all science not be married to our old ideas.

logicman's picture
Let’s find more data though, and more experiments, and as if all science not be married to our old ideas.

Matthew: thank you for your comment.  I am grateful for all feedback.

Much of science is, in a non-obvious way, married to old ideas.

In my approach I am trying to re-evaluate these old assumptions.  Our current cosmological theories can be traced back to a foundation in Newtonian-Euclidian mechanics.  If that foundation is, or can be, or needs to be re-evaluated, then our current building will be on a more sure and lasting foundation.

rholley's picture
A poem written by Mrs Edmund Craster (USA) in 1871 sums up nicely how I feel about all these time discussions.  The version I learned goes as follows:
The Centipede was happy quite,
Until the Toad in fun
Said, ‘Pray, which leg comes after which?’
This raised her doubts to such a pitch,
She fell exhausted in a ditch
Not knowing how to run.

Perhaps the original is here: http://news.illinois.edu/news/09/0211insectfear.html but it has gone into folklore and so gets transmitted with variations.

logicman's picture
Not knowing how to run.

Heck, the centipede had it easy, we humans don't even know how to walk!

Just try walking whilst focusing intensely on your own act of walking. 
Now, doesn't it feel all strange and wobbly?

Thinking about walking, during the act of walking, makes walking difficult.
I conclude, therefore, that some thoughts are best left unthunk.


Hi Patrick

It seems to me that time is simply an abstract concept which has developed in more detail and apparent meaning as we have as a species. The concept of time is a measurement based on our physical perception of the world around us. My personal opinion is that we measure time the way we do because we all know at some level that our time here is limited. (hence the measurement known as the birthday!)

Consider this at a primitive level. When we are born, our parents begin the process of teaching us what we need to do to survive. But from seeing others around them die, they would know at some level that they only have a limited amount of time to teach it to us.

All measurements of time for a human come back to mortality in one way or another. In a primitive world, we would have learned that we have only so long to spend in one place before the seasons change and the herds migrate and food won't grow. Subsequently, we started measuring how many moons it would be before the cold weather comes back and so on. As our civilization evolved, time simply became a way of determining how long something should take to do (hence the term "waste of time"). I think it was Jack Nicholson in the movie Batman that summed it up best "so much to do and so little time". Time is all about efficiency for humans. We in turn have simply applied something we perceive as real to the rest of the universe.

I think Astronomers and Physics scholars should probably consult with Anthropoligists to get a more human understanding of time and its basis in human evolution before they start calling it "real".

However given everything we know about the universe, everything seems to have a beginning and end. So maybe time is real even for planets, stars and galaxies?

logicman's picture
Mark: thank you for your comment.

My point in writing this intermittent, and still ongoing, series about time is to try to show that time has no reality greater then our abstractions from memory and goal-seeking.

I particularly  like your observations about our knowledge of death.  It may well be that our perception of a pressing need to 'get things done' before we inevitably 'move on' has led us to grant a greater 'realism' to time than it warrants.

Time is one of the two biggest unknowns in our understanding of the cosmos - the other being gravity.  I am convinced that we will never understand gravity until we accept that time has no real physical basis.  On the other hand, time's counterpart, inertia, has I believe a very real physical existence and is an area of study much neglected in physics.

Gerhard Adam's picture
It seems that considering "our knowledge of death", is nothing more than recognizing that there is a past and a future.  However, it is worth noting that animals also have comparable experiences, since they are capable of remembering a past and anticipating a future (even if it may be shorter term).

This suggests that for all living things there is a sense of the past and a future (which as you know from my other posts), which I attribute to the collection of information which gives us a positive arrow of time.

In any biological system, each breath or heartbeat represents one more than previous and consequently, there is an accumulation of information (or a rhythmic sense) of events unfolding which somewhat analogous to our concept of counting where any number can be generated by adding to the previous one.  Just as we can recognize a number smaller than the current and anticipate one greater than where we are, so can we perceive the flow of time.

logicman's picture
Gerhard: when I finish my short series on the history of English, I'm planning to tie up some loose ends and continue this theory of time discussion.  The Allais effect was giving me problems, but I now think it is a purely gravitational non-anomalous effect explainable within Newtonian mechanics.  It's nothing to do with time, but is of relevance to the concepts of constancy and information.

Human perception of time is mainly a problem in linguistics.  We grasp all other concepts by direct experience or by example.  In the case of time, the only 'direct experience' isn't direct and it isn't experience.  Memory and prediction, or interpolation and extrapolation?  Either way, the only thing which we can grasp and attribute to a flow of time is an imperfect model of a flow of information, but it is not direct experience.

Human experience, whether as memory or writings, is like tree rings and rock layers.  It is just another means whereby observers can match data points so as to agree on a more extended history than can be recorded by any one person.  By treating history as a line, we feel that it has a reality and a dimension.  But a physics without time is a physics that makes a lot more sense.

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