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By Michael White | August 17th 2008 10:11 PM | 51 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Michael White

Welcome to Adaptive Complexity, where I write about genomics, systems biology, evolution, and the connection between science and literature, government, and society.

I'm a biochemist


... Full Bio

Part 2 on The Plausibility of Life

How does evolution shape living things? The fact that evolutionary forces, such as natural selection, can shape living creatures is well-established, but how malleable those creatures are, and what the increments of change are is less well established. We have a fairly good idea of how genes can change, but how does that genetic change translate into physical changes in the shape and functioning of the organism itself - that is, how does genetic change translate into changes in the organism's phenotype?

The authors of The Plausibility of Life, Marc Kirschner and John Gerhart, argue that this issue has been ignored in evolutionary theory (although they go on to say that it was justifiably ignored for a long time - before modern molecular and cell biology, there was no way to effectively address this question):

What if evolutionary biologists were wrong to think of phenotypic variation as random and unconstrained? How much would it matter if we really understood how genetic variation leads to phenotypic variation, and in particular, how facile or difficult is it to achieve a specific phenotype?

These questions get to the heart of the evolution of complexity. For example, is the mollusc lineage infinitely malleable? If webbed feet were to provide molluscs with an adaptive advantage, would natural selection be able to, after many generations, produce them? (Keep in mind that when talking about natural selection, the semantics get tricky - I don't mean to imply that natural selection works towards a focused goal like webbed feet. I'm not assuming that it does in these arguments, but we occasionally bump up against the limits of language, or at least my language, when trying to talk about these issues efficiently.)

Here is another way that Kirschner and Gerhart state the question. Take a line from Shakespeare, "To be or not to be", and imagine a computer randomly generating letters on a screen - how effectively would a computer generate Shakespeare's line? (Again, the analogy to evolution is imperfect - there is no pre-set goal in evolution analogous to a pre-determined sentence.)

If the computer was varying all letters randomly, and all correct 18 (including spaces) had to show up simultaneously at once to get the line, it would take some time before you would expect to see Shakespeare's line show up by sheer chance. Now if you added a little selection, your line would likely show up much sooner - if every time you got a correct letter, you kept it, only varying the other letters, you'd generate the line much faster.

But what if you didn't vary letters, what if you varied entire words? Instead of having the computer choose at random 18 different letters, what if it randomly chose six 2- or 3-letter words? If you used selection together with random word variation, you'd get Shakespeare's line very quickly. In the case of individual letters, you can get many "non-functional," gibberish combinations - that is, the first hurdle is to get a functional word, and then put those words into a sentence.

Kirschner and Gerhart argue that the variation we observe in real organisms is like variation of complete words, not individual letters. In organisms, there are functional pieces ready to go, pieces which can be varied as coherent plug-and-play modules to build new variants of complex systems.

Much of this probably sounds obvious, but its significance for evolution is often unappreciated. It is much easier for an insect or vertebrate lineage to evolve new types of limbs, for example, than it is for a mollusc to evolve webbed feet. Why? Because insects and vertebrates already have the molecular toolkit for making limbs; to make a new type of limb (such as wings on a bat or dragonfly) requires only some tweaks to that tool kit - bats and insects did not have to evolve wings from scratch.

Like I said, this all probably sounds obvious, but what is not obvious is how pervasive these ready-to-go molecular toolkits are. Almost all of the most important cellular processes evolved very early in the history of life, and much evolution since then has consisted of applying the fundamental organism-building toolboxes in new ways. A good deal of our metabolism is very similar to what exists in bacteria. Our cells divide using the same machinery employed in yeast cells. Biologists study embryological development in flies because the machinery that operates there is extremely similar to what operates in human embryos.

This similarity of basic cellular processes was a huge surprise to many prominent evolutionary biologists. Ernst Mayr, one of the most successful and influential mid-20th century evolutionary biologists (and pretty damn smart, writing sharp books at age 100) wrote that:

Much that has been learned about gene physiology makes it evident that the search for homologous genes is quite futile except in very close relatives. If there is only one efficient solution for a certain functional demand, very different gene complexes will come up with the same solution, no matter how different the pathway by which it is achieved. The saying "May roads lead to Rome" is as true in evolution as in daily affairs.

- Animal Species and Evolution (1963), p. 609, quotes in Sean Carroll's Endless Forms Most Beautiful, p. 71-72

This was how Mayr thought that new complexity evolved: evolution built new genetic tool boxes from scratch, over and over again. Today we know that this idea is wrong in most cases. It is actually much easier to evolve new complex functions than was believed at mid-century.

Thus, for a long time evolutionary theory went along without any serious account of how genetic variation produces complex phenotypic variation - how new combinations of mutations produce new complex functions.

For a long time evolutionary biologists could easily neglect molecular biology, but the phenomenon has run both ways - most molecular cell biologists have very little training or interest in hard-core evolutionary theory. They reap frequently reap its benefits, but don't spend much time thinking about how their own work fits into the larger picture of evolutionary theory. Kirschner and Gerhart argue that the way forward in evolutionary biology involves overcoming this neglect. The core cellular processes, conserved for immense stretches of evolutionary time, are the enablers of much of the complex function we see in nature today.

This is the second installment of a series of posts on an interesting recent book by the accomplished biologists Marc Kirschner and John Gerhart. In this book, the authors lay out what they see as the most important research agenda for molecular biologists in the 21st century. Part 1 is here. Part 3 is now up

Comments

This is a little "off beat" for you with this missive. While you are stretching out molding your ideas into text form using letters that communicate a thought process what good are letters that form words if there isn't an intellegent mind that can come to an understading as a result of it? I'm sure you considered the old saying of 100 monkeys pounding on a typewriter is bound to produce a few discernable words over time. Anything that they produce may end up as a "readable" word but no one would give a passing thought that "the ape is a writer". I like the "toolbox" analogy, but doesn't it in truth simply indentify something that is "already programed" into the organism? The purposeful design element particular to any given living thing simply does not imply an evolutionary pathway, neither does the survival of the fittest. While it may reduce the weak in the animal Kingdom that's where it ends. Mutations may produce new complex functions but are any of them "good"? As a rule mutations are either neutral or negative, more typical of "lost" information not "gained" information. Do you wonder why when a lizard looses a tail or a foot and can regrow another that a tail does not grow in the place where a foot should be, or a foot where a tail should be. Your toolbox is a design capability that is in place for nearly all living things. What you see as something "adaptive" is God imbuing a necessary process, a possible restoration by His mercy. I know you want it bad Michael, but Evolution remains a theory...not a fact, but hang in there something may turn up...

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Your toolbox is a design capability that is in place for nearly all living things. What you see as something "adaptive" is God imbuing a necessary process,

The evidence for the evolution of these basic processes is coming up soon in my discussion of this book - we have to hold off on that discussion until I get to the relevant portion. I use the word "toolbox," but my word choice is not itself evidence for design.

Right now, Kirschner and Gerhart are setting things up. They are arguing that there are several major conserved core cellular processes that are flexible enough to produce the diversity we see in life today. Some biologists once thought that the evolution of new complex features would require building new cellular machinery from scratch every time, but we now know that is not the case.

The molecular machinery to build insect eyes and vertebrate eyes is strongly conserved, even though the eyes themselves are very, very different. This phenomenon isn't limited to eyes; it holds true in most instances, as we'll see.

I know you want it bad Michael, but Evolution remains a theory

If it makes you feel better to pontificate without a shred of evidence or understanding of the molecular details, go for it, but don't pretend that evolution is a science without evidence. If you want more detail, stick around and keep reading.

Mike

This I like, and I will promise not to "pontificate" just as soon as you do. If you purchase these guy's book I'll go half's with you when your done and I'll have a go with it. I will also add that, as you have already "pontificated", you can go for it as well as Intellegent Design has as much "evidence" as evolution (you) possess. Do you think this is going to spill over into the Plant World?, as they can also adapt to changes in Regional placement considering where people choose to plant certain plants. I will be watching as these things do interest me...

Gerhard Adam's picture
Michael I'm currently reading the same book and its very good. Unfortunately anyone intent on seeing "design" will find it regardless of what examples are used. The formation of liquid water to ice can cause the same reaction, because in the end it works because "that's how the molecules were designed to work together". It's worse with living systems because there are so many complex issues and too many people are content to simply throw up their hands and declare a miracle.
Michael,

With this fellow's (Gerhard) comment as to "this" book being "very good" simply in no way reveals any kind of bias. This I'm absolutely sure this is a very open minded individual (Gerhard), and there is no way that this person (Gerhard), who is totally uninfluenced by evolution, can look at any examples and not be "intent" on seeing evolution no matter what!..I'm sure of it! I bet this person (Gerhard) can look at liquid water as it turns into ice and say to himself (Gerhard)..."this is a complete accident that these molecules actually work together"!! As for miracles, they can only be explained by giving credit to God and not to Gerhard, as for complex issues Gerhard, tell me how a caterpillar can turn into a complete liquid within the cocoon and transform into a butterfly afterwards?? I'll wait...

Gerhard Adam's picture
That's certainly a peculiar conclusion to draw from my comments. I never claimed to be "uninfluenced" by anything. It isn't a question of "influence" at all. If I use arithmetic to add 2 + 2, am I somehow being "influenced" to conclude that the answer is 4? The point is that human beings have established a logical system that attempts to determine how the world works based on observation, experimentation, and generating hypothesis in an effort to construct a set of principles that "work" to explain the phenomenon observed. Therefore I am "influenced" based on my own understanding to reach conclusions or accept conclusions that seem plausible. If you are content to assume that the world is fundamentally unexplainable, then that's fine for you, but it doesn't mean that anyone else has to accept your general premises or conclusions.

Gerhard, tell me how a caterpillar can turn into a complete liquid within the cocoon and transform into a butterfly afterwards?? I'll wait...

What makes you think that I owe you an explanation? If you're interested, then you can bloody well look it up yourself. If you aren't interested, then don't ask the question. While you may profess to hold "true understanding" then consider the following from Matthew 7:3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" After all, "creationism" is rooted in one of the three major religions in the world, who have all reached vastly different conclusions after examining the same evidence (mostly by ignoring that claimed by the other religions). In addition, those conclusions are based completely on faith without even a pretense of proof. Compared with those credentials, evolution is practically infallable.
Thank you for clearly revealing the point of my satiric response with your own words. Your bias is showing Gerhard. You are blindingly convinced with "infallible evolution" based upon assumptions and opinions and the most obvious...interpretations. The facts in Science speak for themselves and are not changed except when viewed from a particular interpretation. If you believe that there simply isn't any bias on the part of evolutionists then you are woefully ignorant of the truth. The question of the catapillar I posed did not really require an answer, it is a mystery to 99% of the World and in regards to the scientific happening it's irrelevant. The process is manifestly far too complicated to be simply explained away as something that took "Millions of years" to happen. Just so long as it doesn't include a Creator then "ANY" explanation will do as "ANY" explanation simply can not be proven, only speculated and postulated by a biased opinion that can't be proven. Nice try Gerhard at the Bible "guilt trip" but that lame response proved pointless years ago...try this: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death"...find it yourself.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I guess the ultimate irony is the demand that scientific principles be "proven" ... that coming from a position whose worldview is based on the absence of proof for its beliefs. In the end it comes down to the point that no matter what evidence is presented, it will never constitute proof when the counter-argument can make up any entity or power to explain away the phenomenon. Essentially the challenge is being presented that science must prove its claims, while the opposing viewpoint is under no such obligation. I'm also struck by your fascination with the word "bias" as if it's some sort of black mark against people. It would be preposterous to suggest that individuals don't interpret the world based on their own worldview or beliefs. So if that's the intent of the word "bias" then clearly it would be true. You're making your argument as if you were some sort of biological attorney, whose only responsibility is to introduce "reasonable doubt" and the jury will come back with a not-guilty verdict. As I said before, biology doesn't have a requirement to convince you .... since in all likelihood you may well lack the expertise to even understand the "proof" should it be given. However, I am intrigued that a community that has such difficulty agreeing to some of the most fundamental elements of their own stated beliefs should be so adamant in demanding greater proof and consistency from others.
Gerhard Adam's picture

Nice try Gerhard at the Bible "guilt trip" but that lame response proved pointless years ago...try this: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death"...find it yourself.

The only "lameness" is your singular failure to address my point regarding the disagreement between the major religions and their various denominations. If you want to talk about "bias", then let's consider that there are going to be a number of red-faced individuals on "judgement day" when it comes time to explain why they believed as they did.
Steve Davis's picture
The most interesting part of the article, for me, was the final sentence; "The core cellular processes, conserved for immense stretches of evolutionary time,are the enablers of much of the complex function we see in nature today." As discussion of the book continues I might be proved wrong, but to me that sentence sounds the death knell for selfish gene theory. One of the unfortunate side effects of selfish gene theory was that it became for its proponents an unscientific world-view, and they felt obliged to dismiss group selection as a viable biological reality, yet clearly if cellular processes are enablers as stated, then group selection is a reality of the greatest significance. Group selection can and does occur at levels other than that of organisms, and does occur at the level of the cell.
Gerhard Adam's picture
Steve, I think part of the problem is in the terminology regarding cooperation and "group selection". It seems clear that evolutionary (selection) processes occur at the individual level, however there is also an indication that when group dynamics are involved, that part of the process promotes cooperation. I don't think the argument is that evolution occurs at the group level, but rather than evolution of individuals promotes group behaviors which certainly have evolutionary consequences. This is where I think the role of cooperation beoomes significant. I would be willing to concede that perhaps "cooperation" isn't even the proper term, but there is obviously a set of mechanisms that requires individual elements to work together to achieve their complexity. In other words, like the fact that Hydrogen and Oxygen combine to produce water, I don't think that can be rightly called "cooperation", but it certainly indicates a process whereby certain interactions produce stable predictable consequences. It seems that most phenomenon always consist of opposite forces, like the simplistic examples of day and night, or up and down. In the same way "selfish gene theory" misses the opposite force of cooperation which is every bit as significant in the role it plays. An evolutionary stable strategy requires all forces to reach an equilibrium or the strategy will collapse.
Steve Davis's picture
Nicely put once again Gerhard. When I suggested that this was the death knell for selfish gene theory, I had in mind those that push it as the full story, the only story of evolution.
Gerhard Adam's picture
I agree Steve. Interestingly enough, it seems that people tend to confuse "selfishness" with self-interest. While I suppose you could make the argument that they're the same thing, there is a attitudinal difference between the two ideas. Selfishness carries an almost aggressive type of connotation where as self-interest is a more moderate expression of the same concept. In other words, I have a self-interest to obtain food, which denotes a different attitude than if I were selfish about hoarding food. It's this distinction which tends to overplay the "selfish gene" angle. While it is clear that any action that takes place within a living organism can only occur within the context of that animal/plant and therefore is presumably acting in its "self-interest". There is also a strong group identity associated with these actions which indicate a much higher level of cooperation and organization. If you consider "cell suicide", or Programmed Cell Death (PCD), it becomes clear that one has to accept that cooperation may occur for the group rather than just individual benefit. Without even calling it cooperation, it clearly isn't selfish.
adaptivecomplexity's picture
I think the selfish-gene view sometimes gets a bad reputation because people see it as a proposal of a complete explanation, mutually exclusive of other explanations.

But it's not - the selfish gene view is a frequently useful way of thinking about some evolutionary problems.

It is easy to let the selfish-gene view become overly simplistic. Most genes have multiple functions, and most proteins act in complexes with other proteins. Obviously one 'selfish gene' can't succeed without the cooperation of other genes.

Mike

Gerhard Adam's picture
That's true. Part of what started this dialogue was in a discussion about altruism and game theory. A comment was made regarding how counter-intuitive it was that cooperation would occur despite no apparent benefit to the individuals involved. As a result, it seemed (to me) that the discussion presumed that the only evolutionary behavior would be selfishness and that cooperation was an unusual phenomenon that required significant explanation. This seemed odd since so much cooperative behavior is observed in nature, that it spawned much of this discussion. In particular, what seemed unusual was the it didn't seem to occur to the researchers that cooperation can occur for completely "selfish" or self-interested motives and didn't require an artificial construct to explain it away. It seemed that the only acknowledgement of cooperation was within the context of kin relationships which seemed unnecessarily restrictive.
Trying to catch up here...what you guys are postulating here seems all neat and tidy but there is a lot of language particular to your "club" and a nice way to cloud the water. Selfishness or self interest is a domain of the higher conscienceness crowd is it not? Below human level (apes optional) do not things become more of an instinctive operation? As for the bias dissection it never seems to come into play until something you hold sacred is affected by it no matter which side of the apple you bite from. The three competeting major Religions has been joined by another lessor Religion which in truth opposes the other three. Christianity, Judeaism, and Islam all believe in a Creator, so as far as that goes your barking up the wrong tree (excuse the pun) whereas those who hold fast to the Religion of evolution also have a concluded response without much more than perceived speculation, "anything BUT God" will do. One thing I do find more confusing than anything you have said here so far is your "faith" in a "Judgement Day"...your just funnin' me right?

Michael...can you give to me the "capsule version" of what selfish gene theory is. Do you believe that a single cell has a conscienceness and acts according to it's own will? Gerhard mentioned things performing at a cellular level, can/does a cell determine on it's own whether it should or should not contribute to the "good" of the group?...cellular suicide?

Gerhard Adam's picture

whereas those who hold fast to the Religion of evolution also have a concluded response without much more than perceived speculation, "anything BUT God" will do

I stand in awe of the ability to reduce all the study, experiments, hypothesis and theories of biology to a simple "anything BUT God". Reductio ad absurdum
Steve Davis's picture
Mike, I agree with everything you said about selfish gene theory, all we have to do now is convince Richard Dawkins! I won't hold my breath waiting. As for evolution being a religion, that's certainly not the case. Religions demand faith, evolution demands observation only.
adaptivecomplexity's picture
Hopefully some of these issues will become more clear as we move on to discuss the next parts of the book. How Kirschner and Gerhart's ideas relate to Dawkins is a fascinating one.

Kirschner and Gerhart are arguing that evolutionary theory has not been influenced enough by what we now know about molecular biology. Before the 90's, this was understandable because we really didn't know enough molecular biology to propose the kind of theory Kirschner and Gerhart are proposing.

I'll have the next installment up later today - let's see where it takes us.

Mike

Wow Gerhard...and you think "I'm" simplistic. I won't say what I'm truly thinking out of respect to Michael, but contrary to popular "belief" (sorry can't help it) there are actually legitimate, learned, and earned PhD's out there who can look at exactly the same evidence, exactly the same outcome, exactly the same Scientific "proof" and determine all the same things and or conclusions that any of you would, and yet retain full faith and credit in a Creator just as you place your full faith and credit in an evolutionary explanation. Sorry Steve but where there isn't repeatable proof there is theory and you must decide whether you "believe" in the theory or not...that takes faith pure and simple. Nice Latin Gerhard but wasted. Do you have time Michael or should I try to find answers elsewhere?

Gerhard Adam's picture

...there are actually legitimate, learned, and earned PhD's out there who can look at exactly the same evidence, exactly the same outcome, exactly the same Scientific "proof" and determine all the same things and or conclusions that any of you would, and yet retain full faith and credit in a Creator just as you place your full faith and credit in an evolutionary explanation.

That's a nice two-step there on the logic. Invoking scientists' belief in a creator (which has NEVER been a point of criticism or dispute) and deftly linking it to evolution as if the two were mutually exclusive. Having a PhD does not confer immunity from being wrong, however if you can show me one acceptable theory that has an alternate explanation of evolution by a "learned PhD", by all means .... have at it. However, I do ask that it be an actual theory and not merely a criticism of other people's work.
Ya know...I'm beginning to like you Gerhard. You have a "stick to it" drum beat, and there is that little something there you have in your brain that much reminds me of a school yard "teatherball". While reaching out a certain and safe distance you are still comfortably tied to the anchor pole. Evolution and Intellegent Design "are" mutually exclusive...is there a way to marry them together somehow? Diametrically opposed I would guess would be a better description. Were you waiting for me to suggest "Intellegent Design" as our theory so that there would be some kind of line drawn in the sand? Lets you and I approach a huge wall painted red, as we both stand there you see the wall just as I do, you see the red just as I do, I suspect that the wall had a painter responsible for it's generation...how do you understand it's coming into being?? You are absolutely correct that a PhD does not bear witness to an infallable opinion, thanks for making my case for me, and who knows, were I just a little bit closer to having mine I just might change my mind about the whole thing. Was I criticzing your work or just "others" work in general? I like this place believe it or not, and come not to poke anyone in the chest. I enjoy learning and observing, but have little tolerance for folks who like to look down long noses at those who don't buy all that they are trying to sell. I meant what I said Michael...I would go in halves on this book you are dicussing once you are complete just so I can see what the "other side" is up to .. ;-)

Gerhard Adam's picture

Evolution and Intellegent Design "are" mutually exclusive...is there a way to marry them together somehow?

Well, at least you're not using the subterfuge that Intelligent Design represents anything but a religious position. However, don't presume that all people of faith necessarily share your view that evolution and a "creator" are mutually exclusive. There are many people that might believe that a "creator" set everything in motion and used the laws of science in order to achieve that. Therefore, there is no necessary contradiction in such a view.

... but have little tolerance for folks who like to look down long noses at those who don't buy all that they are trying to sell...

Its a perfectly legitimate position to not accept another's ideas, premises, or theories. There is certainly plenty of room for disagreement. While there may be many reasons that you aren't "buying" what someone else is "selling", bear in mind that the reverse also holds.
....just as long as the playing field is level then there is opportunity to fairly exchange. The idea of a compassionate God/Creator to start a ball rolling only to turn His back on it and walk away would contradict every understanding we hold and have of Him, so your use of the word "many" would be more accurate were you to use "minority". The latter part of your missive has already happened Gerhard, it's pretty much anytime an opposer comes to light and dare step out of the shadows...Intellegent Design does not affect the result of Science anymore than Evolution does as it is an observation and an opinion. I'm still trying to observe a lizard with feathers though...seen any? ;-)

Gerhard Adam's picture

I'm still trying to observe a lizard with feathers though...seen any? ;-)

Misunderstanding biology and evolution doesn't produce results just because you think it should.
adaptivecomplexity's picture
Feathered dinosaurs: scroll down to the "List of dinosaur genera preserved with evidence of feathers."

If you want to know more about the evolution of feathers from scales, this review provides a nice overview. Amazingly enough, the same proteins involved in scale development are involved in feather development. Geneticists have found mutants producing a variety of 'primitive' or intermediate-stage feathers.

So, we have fossils of feathered dinos. We have genetic studies detailing how scales and feathers develop under the control the same basic set of genes.

And Perry, you think we should just ignore this, throw up our hands, and say God did it?

Mike

well dang fella's, inciteful responses both. Adding a "billion" more years when a "million" just won't do is not the answer either, but I don't really think I'm too far off the mark. With a change as monumental as it would take for a scale to change into a feather we should be "tripping" over the fossil remains of this particular transformation, but I will have a look anyway Michael. Besides I never took you as someone who would just throw up his hands for anything much less a being that you simply just don't believe in, Gerhard might though...I need a bit of time to check out the list.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
You apparently didn't read my reply or look at the links, otherwise it would have been clear to you that a) it doesn't take much (time or genetic change) to turn scales into feathers, and b) we do have fossils of this transformation.

This doesn't take a billion years.

Mike

Take a deep breath and relax...if you had paid a bit more attention to my last post you would have read that I clearly said at the end: "I need a bit of time to check out the list". Don't be in such a rush to prove me wrong, you have plenty of time to do that. While my comment about the Billions of years in leu of Millions was a generic insertion not specific to "scales to feathers"...so if it didn't take Billions of years about how many Millions do you think it took? I did make note of your use of the word "mutants" as the "producers" of this miraculous transformation...is it your claim that a mutant is one that "gains" information in it's genetic code or is it a "loss" of information within it genetic code?? Have a good weekend Mike.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
If you haven't looked at the list, then why did you write:

With a change as monumental as it would take for a scale to change into a feather we should be "tripping" over the fossil remains of this particular transformation

Don't speculate, go look at the actual scientific data.

Mike

Gerhard Adam's picture
Perry: So what's your explanation for what takes place? I know you mentioned a "designer", but that raises a question because when we design things it's because we're restricted by the laws of science, so we have to plan and account for any structures we put together by those constraints. We can't simply have a plane fly, it must follow the rules of aerodynamics. Does this mean your "intelligent designer" is similarly restricted or are the laws something that can be changed at will? If "intelligent design" is the vehicle that put all living things together, then we need to be able to explore the rationale for any given design. In particular, the most obvious question is ... why make everything so complicated if there are no laws to which the "designer" has to adhere?
Mike...you first. You seem to me to be a very intellegent sort of guy but I have to call you out for your comment. First, I went to the "nice" review @ the prescribed website and while this may be exciting verbiage for you and yours it is purposely worded to be as convoluted as possible mostly citing old and or older articles and positions most from the 70's. The glaring conclusion that you think is there, isn't there. While I suspect this is a website for the pointy head types that dig a 15 word assembly when a 5 word one will do, it simply doesn't appear to be something the average pin head like me can appreciate. That aside it isn't difficult reading, only difficult "interpretation". Which by the way is a word used in only the "second" sentence of the article...not a good start would you say? Secondly my friend I am beginning to think that you believe that this transformation just happened overnight...the survivability of a tranforming creature, certainly one as dramatic as this would be, would be by your own associates estimates be millions of generations which "should" have left a traceable pathway of fossil evidence. I also looked at the "list" of Feathers Dinosaurs which was about a dozen...the first 6 I looked at 4 did not have a representative fossil photo to consider, only an artist rendering. That is certainly a strong persuasion method. The theme was that these were prehistoric "birds" not lizards so I honored your request and looked and honestly I am not convinced by any of this suspect "evidence". If this is the best there is out there then somebody better keep digging.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
it is purposely worded to be as convoluted as possible mostly citing old and or older articles and positions most from the 70's.

That's right, that's what graduate school is all about: figuring out how to word things in the most convoluted way.

Come on, do you really think a technical scientific article in a professional journal is going to be easy reading? The correct answer here is not that the authors are being obscure; it's a technical field, and if you're not a trained biologist, it's going to take you more time to figure out what they are saying.

And do you really think Wikipedia is going to have pictures of all of the fossils? There is a list of names of dinosaur genera with feathers. If you are serious about understanding the real science of evolutionary biology, you have to do some digging. Wikipedia is only an entry point.

I don't understand why you repeatedly say, when things get a little technical, that people are being purposely obscure, and therefore they are hiding weak evidence.

This is science - science can be hard. You do yourself no credit by posing as a fake skeptic, pretending that you're not convinced by technical articles you don't understand.

Here's the good news: it's not secret code. Much of this you can understand without extensive training, but it takes effort. Don't expect an understanding of a modern, technical scientific field to be just handed to you in an internet forum. You have to do some work.

Mike

I've had a nice few days off and thought I should stop in and rebut the rebuttle. As I mentioned before, the article may well be a "technical scientific" article but the basis of it...no matter how much scientific jargon is used, in the end says little to nothing but you sending me there just to "test and see" if scientific "malarky" can be passed by me or I would be overwhelmed by it verbal complexity is your deal. On top of that, you were the one who gave me the list of fossil finds to "go and look at" and when I point out that the list is mostly artist interpretation you now want me to "dig deeper". Well make up your mind. Are you making your stand on the basis of a handful of localized fossils that scaled lizards transitioned into feathered birds?? As a Biologist, you must be aware of the simple fact that there is as much if not more transformation that is required internally to occur in order to realize this dream? Do lizards have hollow bones by which to breath through?? The technical wording requirement to a degree is a necessary evil but when the preponderence of it appears to be each and every word then you have to begin to wonder if all the verbiage is being used to "cover" up what is lacking at its core...much like the article you pointed me to read. I am not a "fake" skeptic, I am a "real" skeptic neither am I pretending in regards to this article, my opinion is just that...sorry you don't like it but it's a free Country. All the fossils that are currently under consideration of this hope/declaration wouldn't fill the average size coffin which is where your hopes of evolution are headed.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
As I mentioned before, the article may well be a "technical scientific" article but the basis of it...no matter how much scientific jargon is used, in the end says little to nothing but you sending me there just to "test and see" if scientific "malarky" can be passed by me or I would be overwhelmed by it verbal complexity is your deal.

I meant no such thing. If you are not a pretend skeptic - that is, if your skepticism is to be truly based on the state of the scientific evidence, then you should do some work to actually become familiar with that evidence.

That includes understanding what the relevant fossil finds are. If you had dug deeper, you would realize that real scientific analysis does not depend on an artistic rendering of what the living creature might have looked like - you will rarely if ever find such pictures in a real scientific article. The pictures are for the public.

To get youreslf up to speed on this evidence and make an intelligent criticism of it, you should dig deeper, and not expect someone in an online forum to walk you through it.

The same thing goes with the technical review article - it is technical, but you don't need a degree to get something out of it with a little work. In addition the article is filled with references to the primary research.

Thus, if you were a genuine skeptic, honestly concerned about evidence, you would make some effort to familiarize yourself with the details before coming to the conclusion that evolutionary biology is unfounded.

If you're not familiar with what scientists put forward as evidence, why should anyone care what your opinion is about evolution?

Mike

Gerhard...you have posed a credible question. I know that I have poked fun at you a little in good spirit and you have been gracious along the way. I like best your statement in regards to PhD's...they can still be wrong. That can be a hard concept to many here within this forum, I am no exception. I do not have a PhD but neither am I an unlabeled person without significant study milage behind me. I would suggest that your question is also one of timing because less than 150 years ago we had no true understanding of flying or what constraints might exist. A plane does not fly does it. It is a matter of pressure, so in truth a plane is "lifted" up. Do Hot Air Balloons "fly"? The Science that has revealed it's truth are exactly as you have discerned, they have parameters and conditions that must be met exactly. What many Scientists have learned over time is that while a considerable amount of Science has been safely proven, there are other times where things have gone deadly wrong, or dangerously wrong. Once the abiding formula has been reached then there is safety in it's execution. This is a gift of God, the restrictions or constraints as you have described them are for our own good not for God's. I am not impressed very much with all the minutia of Biology (forgive me Mike) the Science that really gets me is the Mathamatics that can send a mechanical assembly to Mars and now we have a "Mini Cooper" driving around the Planet. Hitting a distant moving Asteroid like Anne Oakley that's impressive, but it could only happen with a provable/testable formula...math is a gift from God. Intelligent Design is exactly that...nothing more. I am impressed with this question Gerhard. You are not the average person, this is clear, how do I know this? You look at something and not just see what it is, you want to know what it does..how it does it. The average person simply has no concept of what exists just below the surface, they are not interested, the "skin" is enough of a mystery...but...we both know there is so much more, but how much more? God has created this World for them and for guys like us. As deep as you want to go, as complicated as you think you can handle, this mystery no matter where you focus your study from Biology to Chemical elements there is always another level to challenge your mind...and your faith. God is not constrained by His creation, but because He knows it all he has not only created everything for us to evaluate and study He also created Science as a method of study whereby we can learn many of the mysteries that interest us. Your closing thought to your missive is also fair...the sheer magnatude of complication will generate one of two things Gerhard. Either there will be frustration or contrition because God is God and there is none other like Him so when deeper study reveal only more complex assembly sooner or later you have to come to the conclusion that none of this is an arbritary accident and there must be an activator...a cause. I like you guys, I really do, and I appreciate your willingness to engage me, though you may consider me trite, and a bit dull, but you have to admit...it's kinda fun.

Gerhard Adam's picture

As deep as you want to go, as complicated as you think you can handle, this mystery no matter where you focus your study from Biology to Chemical elements there is always another level to challenge your mind...and your faith. God is not constrained by His creation, but because He knows it all he has not only created everything for us to evaluate and study He also created Science as a method of study whereby we can learn many of the mysteries that interest us.

If this is your belief, then don't you have to acknowledge the possibility that biology and evolution are completely correct and according to your belief, represents just another one of the "challenges" presented to man? If I accept your worldview for a moment, I would have to wonder about the design of viruses and bacteria that kill people, and the design of cells that create cancers. In short, if everything is designed, then the implication is that it is done purposefully. Now one can presume that this is simply a result of God's poking fun at man, or one must lend serious credence to the possibility that everything that science has discovered is true (as far as it goes) and that these "designs" are simply more challenges. After all it would be a terrible jest to allow science to develop antibiotics and treatments for disease and then suddenly pull the rug out from under us and say ... this you can't know. It's not consistent with the experience of being in the world. In short, if there is to be a credible "intelligent designer" then one must allow for the possibility that the design follows the principles outlined by science since there isn't any particular reason why biology should have a unique starting point over any other science.
"The design of cells that cause cancer"?? You call a mutated cell a designed cell? When an Atheist looks and tries to apply a Godless explanation to why things are, or you wonder and study fruitlessly over a lifetime how will you ever understand that this is a "fallen" World. You avoid at all costs any inference that there is a Creator that in the end will force you to give an accounting of your life. You smugly ask but in truth accuse God of "designing" virus's and bacteria by which He kills people...no Gerhard, these are the result of a poor choice long ago that brought death into the World. Many posts ago Gerhard you mentioned some simple phenomenon like "day and night" or "up and down", so allow me to add one that you left out..."good and evil". Cancers aren't "created", they are a result of a mutated cell, something going wrong on the inside of a normal cell, that is a rather simplistic explanation I realize, but accurate. There are some things that are beyond explanation and will remain so, those things that you wish an answer to many never be revealed, but I will tell you this. The motivation of the heart will many times determine the success of a new discovery, if you are trying to "prove" that God is non-existant or show another means to how things come to exist, then you will be "ever learning, and never coming" to the knowledge of the way things are. As for the "starting point" for Biology, it is the claim that Biologists universally make that it all started in the primordial ooze that is unique to all the Sciences...

If your belief is that evolution is a forgone conclusion and you keep it to yourself then that's fine, it's when you desire to include the rest of us with your belief that the onus is on you to do the convincing in terms that people can clearly and plainly see and understand. A technical article where the "Preacher is convincing the Choir" is moot. You and the things you are so convinced about are the "minority" of the minority. So stating what you "know" to familial observers gains you nothing. What good towards your fellow man have you accomplished there in the Dept. of Genetics? Is your study leading you to new treatments of the Human condition? Any and all positive producing study that benefits the common good is worthy, but to promote the line in the sand that is evolution is the cause defeats the good that you are supposedly behind. As Gerhard has previously stated that a PhD does not confir the status of infallability so that places an informed person on equal ground when it comes to a valid opinion. Care to address the question I posed about the lizard to bird observation I made?

Gerhard Adam's picture

You smugly ask but in truth accuse God of "designing" virus's and bacteria by which He kills people...no Gerhard, these are the result of a poor choice long ago that brought death into the World.

My question wasn't smug but gets to the heart of the matter. If God designed a perfect world, then there must be an explanation for the existence of these things. If not, then you're suggesting that things occur that are outside God's purview. How can I "accuse" God of such choices when you have already indicated that everything occurred because of a creator. Therefore it is a legitimate question to ask, who created them? If it was God, then why? If it wasn't, then who? Now you're also alluding to the fact that these things occur in the world because of a "poor choice", but surely you can't be suggesting that these are a consequence of Eve? If so, you're suggesting that these "creations" are a sort of punishment. If not, the original question remains. In addition, the notion that such a choice brought death into the world is handily disproven in Genesis, when God clearly expels Adam and Eve from the garden precisely so that they don't acquire immortality. Therefore death was already in the world. So I don't understand what you're suggesting here.
Do you think that things are "improving" here in this World? What is rust the result of? Why do things degrade in a World that you believe is "evolving" to the betterment. Based upon your supposition Gerhard did God kill Able or did Cain? Death was not already in the Garden of Eden, and you are wrong about Eve and Adam to boot as they "already had" immortality, it was not until disobedience came to the fore, clearly a choice, that set in motion the slow spiral that you confusingly see as "progress". Michael can better explain to you why a perfect cell mutates into a imperfect one but the fact is that it is not a "good" thing, a progressive thing that is beneficial to the host. It is clearly not a "gain" in information, more likely a loss of information so while the created World began as perfect it has degraded into imperfection as a result of a "choice", just as you are making yours. Any question can be deemed legitimate just as yours is, I am not disputing that, but while you are rubbing your hands together with the feeling that you have destroyed my argument, it is you that is wrong about the crux of this missive.

Gerhard Adam's picture
From Genesis 3:21-23

And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken

Sorry, but it couldn't be any plainer. God was concerned that they would eat from the tree of life, so he made them leave. That indicates that death was very much a part of the circumstances at that point. I'm sorry, but your argument is no longer about anything except to indicate that we are being perpetually punished for something which supposedly happened in the distant past. In addition, you're simply sidestepping the issue of why things degenerate. Are you suggesting that because of this choice the world is less than perfect because it has faults? Or are you suggesting that the "creation" was corrupted by this choice and is no longer perfect? If you truly believe these things then these questions warrant some answers beyond simply suggesting that this is all circumstantial around some choice made in the Garden of Eden. Or are you suggesting that this is simply the culimination of God's curse on Adam and Eve? Michael doesn't need to explain why a cell mutates, you do, since you're the one that keeps insisting that biology is wrong. Tell me what these choices are that are responsible for this degeneration.
Gerhard Adam's picture

If your belief is that evolution is a forgone conclusion and you keep it to yourself then that's fine, it's when you desire to include the rest of us with your belief that the onus is on you to do the convincing in terms that people can clearly and plainly see and understand.

You are intentionally distorting reality now, because you know full well that a logical train of thought is not a belief. While it may be circumstantial it certainly isn't an article of faith such as is required by religion. If your viewpoint were to prevail, then we might as well begin by emptying the prisons, since the majority of people that are incarcerated are there because evidence presented created a "belief" in their guilt. Since this doesn't seem to be a valid criteria then you're saying that the world is unknowable since it would be impossible to witness all the phenomenon to which we have knowledge. Chemistry, Physics, Geology, etc. are all simply "beliefs" because since it is impossible for us to witness the components for which we have theories, they are no more substantive a belief than fairies or hobbits. However, I can't help but notice that you've generally failed to answer any of the questions I've posed, beyond suggesting that I was out of line to ask them. Am I to conclude that there is no explanation?
While I'm am blushing at the idea that little ol me can actually distort reality, you are simply displaying a flair for the dramatic. Zero reality has been distorted, only your faith has been pricked, is it not true Gerhard that there is more than a single "kind" of faith? I would suggest to you that there are 10 times the people that are "outside" of prison because evidence was presented that created a "belief" in their "innocence". You must be a very dissappointed fellow if your goal is to know all that is in the World...only Ben Stein is that smart...but I will refer you to an earlier missive in this thread, the World and all it's intricate design is for the purpose of God's pleasure and for our intrigue. You love Biology, I love Space, Michael love genes and on it goes. There is something for everyone who has an interest no matter what it is. Are you telling me that you take nothing on Faith?? Name me one provable fact of evolution that can be irrefutably proven and backed up in a labratory? I have not failed in answering any of your question as every post has been answered with a logical opposite. You set the precedence in not answering straight questions early on...remember the catapillar to butterfly question that you dodged? At which point did the human lung become viable enough to sustain the hosts life on the pathway of evolution? Why are there two? The ball is in your court?

Gerhard Adam's picture

You set the precedence in not answering straight questions early on...remember the catapillar to butterfly question that you dodged? At which point did the human lung become viable enough to sustain the hosts life on the pathway of evolution? Why are there two?

The problem is that you aren't interested in any answer that is provided. You expend all your energy either ridiculing what you're told, or responding with half-truths and misunderstood information. If you're truly interested in the answer to these questions, then as Michael suggested, you need to do a bit of research to find out what the current state of knowledge is. Some of the questions you're asking are specifically addressed in the book "The Plausibility of Life", but you've expressed no desire to investigate this. In truth, I don't believe you want to know the answers. I think you're simply looking at any explanation and using it as a springboard to ridicule our interpretations so that you can put your religious spin on it. That's why I responded as I did, so that since you seemed so set on your belief, I thought that you would at least have some explanation about why biology was so wrong. In the end, I don't believe you're interested in exploring either side of the question. I think you're quite content with whatever religious interpretation you've put on it and don't want to investigate any of it farther than that. If you are content with your belief and feel that it provides you an adequate explanation for how the world works, then that's great. However, don't expect that simply asserting such a belief suddenly elevates it to science, or that it will gain any credibility by such an assertion. Despite the fact that you keep insisting that scientific theories are simply beliefs, you know that isn't true,and that every theory can't necessarily be reduced to a laboratory experiment. However, in fairness you haven't examined any of the laboratory experiments that have taken place, so I doubt your sincerity in trying to find out. To date, modern biology has come up with the best explanation for how things work without introducing a supernatural element to things. Please don't throw out that tired old issue about the "origins of life", since that isn't the discussion here. The theory of evolution isn't about origins, but rather it describes the course of events after it has occurred. So you can claim that we're just clinging to our 'faith' and advancing our own "belief", but that twists the concept of logical thought and scientific inquiry beyond recognition. The difference is that in science, what we "believe" will be adjusted based on the evidence that is found (sometimes reluctantly), but it does change. That would never occur on the other side of the debate since the presumption is that all the truth and knowledge is already known.
Michael White starts talking about DNA in a cheetah to explain how a cheetah can run faster than other cheetahs.

And he seems to have said that all cheetahs have the same set of DNA peculiar to cheetahs, but the faster cheetah has some variant DNA that enables it to run faster than other cheetahs.

He certainly wants to assert that cheetahs with that variant DNA that is peculiar to them that enables them to run faster, that variant DNA will eventually turn these cheetahs after billions and billions and billions and billions of years and transformations to a new kind of animals that are no longer essentially cheetahs.

But I can't see how the original DNA peculiar to all cheetahs can change into a new set of DNA responsible for a new kind of animals with the passage of however many billions and billions of years.

Wait for the completion of his work.

Yrger

Gerhard Adam's picture

Actually Michael isn't saying that at all... and you're being silly with what you already know is obvious.  ... and unless you're Carl Sagan, forget about the billions and billions ... it just makes the argument seem even sillier.



Arguing from ignorance, of course, you.

But to come to the core of the theory of evolution: random mutation where there is disorder everywhere and all the time in nature, still nature being fraught with disorder can be counted on by evolutionists to not prevent the orderly rise of a new species -- only with the suspension of random mutation which is rife disorder at all time and in all place.

See? Who is being silly now, you with your recess from random mutation which is total unremitting disorder in nature, to slip in selection by nature -- unless you are calling God by another name, nature.

Hahaha!

That is scientific thinking for you.

Yrger

Gerhard Adam's picture

Where do you get this notion that everything is disorder and random processes?  Even without living things, the universe has operated on the principle of the laws of physics and chemistry.  While large portions of universal behavior may be unpredictable and even unknowable at the quantum level, they are hardly random. 

The variations in DNA are so well known, they are a staple in the media when it comes to identifying individuals for legal purposes, so to profess being startled at the idea of DNA variations is absurd.  The normal variations that occur between people is equally obvious, so it isn't a surprise to see that people respond differently to diets, exercise, stress, etc.  Obviously some will be faster, stronger, taller, etc than others, so once again to suggest that you're shocked that such variations occur is preposterous.

It is equally obvious that with these differences, that some living things will do better than others and consequently have a greater likelihood of passing their favorable traits on to their offspring. 


Even your concept of mutations is flawed, since they don't run the gamut of possibilities, but are themselves constrained by the boundary conditions over which they interact.  Muscles cells can't randomly mutate to become nerve cells. 


Looking at the selected variations that are managed by humans in promoting traits in domestic animals has been a well known practice, so to suggest that radical changes require billions of years is equally absurd. 


You can't simply argue that evolution is impossible by introducing things that don't happen and can't happen and suddenly declare it to be flawed.  The flaw comes from your own misinterpretations of what evolution and natural selection is about.



logicman's picture
"And he seems to have said that all cheetahs have the same set of DNA peculiar to cheetahs, but the faster cheetah has some variant DNA that enables it to run faster than other cheetahs."

All of which explains why cheetas dont bother entering for the olympic games?

Reductio ad absurdum:
Broadly speaking, all humans have the same dna. If minute variations of dna made no difference we would all know the same number of words. We would also have no need for books, since everyone would be equipped to invent his or her own 'Merchant of Venice', 'Oliver Twist', 'Principia Mathematiae or even 'On the Origins of Species'.

Do you see the bias in the data which I have presented?
British and proud of it :)

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