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By Becky Jungbauer | September 16th 2009 09:00 AM | 23 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Becky Jungbauer

A scientist and journalist by training, I enjoy all things science, especially science-related humor. My column title is a throwback to Jane Austen's famous first line in Pride and Prejudice


... Full Bio

Where does evolution leave God? This question has been debated for over a century, and it likely isn't going anywhere any time soon. Some may feel, myself included, that the glut of fighting among the camps should just be put to rest, like the new song on the radio that is played every five minutes. One is about science, one is about religion. Over and done.

Occasionally I'll come across an article that still sparks my interest (like the many on Scientific Blogging, of course). One such article was an essay featured in the Wall Street Journal, in the vein of point/counter-point, but neither writer knew what the other was going to say.1

WSJ asked Karen Armstrong and Richard Dawkins to independently respond to the question, "Where does evolution leave God?"

Ms. Armstrong is a prolific author on comparative religion (you may have read or heard of A History of God) who emphasizes that faith traditions actually have a lot in common, particularly compassion for others (distilled into the Golden Rule). I like that she talks about faith as a verb, not as a static belief.

I assume everyone knows or has heard of Dawkins, but just in case, he's an author and outspoken critic of creationism and intelligent design.

"We need God to grasp the wonder of our existence."

Armstrong starts off with a nod to Dawkins, saying he has been right all along, of course - at least in one important respect.
Evolution has indeed dealt a blow to the idea of a benign creator, literally conceived. It tells us that there is no Intelligence controlling the cosmos, and that life itself is the result of a blind process of natural selection, in which innumerable species failed to survive. The fossil record reveals a natural history of pain, death and racial extinction, so if there was a divine plan, it was cruel, callously prodigal and wasteful. Human beings were not the pinnacle of a purposeful creation; like everything else, they evolved by trial and error and God had no direct hand in their making. No wonder so many fundamentalist Christians find their faith shaken to the core.

But, she says, Darwin "may have done religion—and God—a favor by revealing a flaw in modern Western faith. Despite our scientific and technological brilliance, our understanding of God is often remarkably undeveloped." Certain scientists (the likes of Newton, for one) felt that the scientific discoveries they were making showed only a creator who was "very well skilled in mechanics and geometry" could have come up with our universe. A scientific-based theology was born and pervaded every aspect of society.

Yet when Darwin came along and suggested otherwise - there isn't any proof of God's existence - the populace was so entrenched in science-based theology that it was difficult to let go. (Some still haven't.)
Religion was not supposed to provide explanations that lay within the competence of reason but to help us live creatively with realities for which there are no easy solutions and find an interior haven of peace; today, however, many have opted for unsustainable certainty instead. But can we respond religiously to evolutionary theory? Can we use it to recover a more authentic notion of God?

Darwin made it clear once again that—as Maimonides, Avicenna, Aquinas and Eckhart had already pointed out—we cannot regard God simply as a divine personality, who single-handedly created the world. This could direct our attention away from the idols of certainty and back to the "God beyond God." The best theology is a spiritual exercise, akin to poetry. Religion is not an exact science but a kind of art form that, like music or painting, introduces us to a mode of knowledge that is different from the purely rational and which cannot easily be put into words. At its best, it holds us in an attitude of wonder, which is, perhaps, not unlike the awe that Mr. Dawkins experiences—and has helped me to appreciate —when he contemplates the marvels of natural selection.

Armstrong ends with the idea that pain and suffering is part of life, but also part of faith.
But what of the pain and waste that Darwin unveiled? All the major traditions insist that the faithful meditate on the ubiquitous suffering that is an inescapable part of life; because, if we do not acknowledge this uncomfortable fact, the compassion that lies at the heart of faith is impossible. The almost unbearable spectacle of the myriad species passing painfully into oblivion is not unlike some classic Buddhist meditations on the First Noble Truth ("Existence is suffering"), the indispensable prerequisite for the transcendent enlightenment that some call Nirvana—and others call God.

"Evolution leaves God with nothing to do."

Dawkins begins by saying that we should no longer think creation of life was God's greatest work, but that evolution is the universe's greatest work (and the greatest show in the universe).

Evolution is the creator of life, he says. Well, what is so special about life? "It never violates the laws of physics.Nothing does (if anything did, physicists would just have to formulate new laws—it's happened often enough in the history of science). But although life never violates the laws of physics, it pushes them into unexpected avenues that stagger the imagination."

Look, Dawkins says, "through the eyes of a physicist, at a bounding kangaroo, a swooping bat, a leaping dolphin, a soaring Coast Redwood."
There never was a rock that bounded like a kangaroo, never a pebble that crawled like a beetle seeking a mate, never a sand grain that swam like a water flea. Not once do any of these creatures disobey one jot or tittle of the laws of physics.

Never once are the laws of physics violated, yet life emerges into uncharted territory. And how is the trick done? The answer is a process that, although variable in its wondrous detail, is sufficiently uniform to deserve one single name: Darwinian evolution, the nonrandom survival of randomly varying coded information. We know, as certainly as we know anything in science, that this is the process that has generated life on our own planet.

So, what about life on other planets? Assuming they follow Darwinian evolution, what if they are actually more evolved than us? Would we be tempted to worship them as gods? (Think how an early human would react to electricity or an airplane, things we take for granted.) Dawkins says we should not worship them because they cannot be gods for one simple reason - they were created by the universe, the universe did not create them.

In a tip of the hat to Nietzsche, he notes: "The kindest thing to say is that it leaves him with nothing to do, and no achievements that might attract our praise, our worship or our fear. Evolution is God's redundancy notice, his pink slip. But we have to go further. A complex creative intelligence with nothing to do is not just redundant. A divine designer is all but ruled out by the consideration that he must at least as complex as the entities he was wheeled out to explain. God is not dead. He was never alive in the first place."

He ends by saying that people believe God "exists in objective reality, just as surely as the Rock of Gibraltar exists," and theologians trying to downplay the existence of God in favor of a personal belief (if I believe, who cares if science makes God redundant) should think again.

What do you think?

Were their arguments convincing? Full of holes? What do you think?

1 While they may not have known the exact wording used in each other's essays, I have a feeling Armstrong and Dawkins knew essentially where the other stood.

Comments

Gerhard Adam's picture
The whole concept of creation as presented by religion is flawed, especially when it comes to the notion of good and evil in the world.  This is the subject of Fred Pauser's latest post.

It doesn't really matter whether one believes in a god or not, but the issue of creation has one major problem;  if you created it, then you are responsible for what occurs in it.  There can be no successful dodge around suffering, if you created the conditions that allow it to occur.

Similarly arguments that suggest that Satan or some devil is responsible simply makes a creator look impotent.

Therefore if religion is going to be of use to anything, it needs to focus on the philosophical and spiritual elements of its message and stop trying to play science.  By focusing on scientific or historical accuracy they minimize the message and trivialize any belief they may have.

The religious argument in general has no basis in external reality, only in feelings. That makes it false, no matter how much the feelings mean to people, nor how many people share similar feelings, nor how delightful, benign or generally positive those feelings are. And that ultimately is where the debate always flounders. Religious people don't like that people say their beliefs are false. They like their religion, they like how it makes them feel, whether they made it up in their head themselves, or read it in a book, or a combination of the two. Good luck to them. It doesn't make for an interesting debate however when one side is determined to deny reality no matter how beautifully. As the lady herself put it:

"Religion is not an exact science but a kind of art form that, like music or painting, introduces us to a mode of knowledge that is different from the purely rational and which cannot easily be put into words"

Gerhard Adam's picture
That may be true, but it doesn't work psychologically.  We all have our mental crutches that we use to cope with the world and circumstances and there are far too many instances where science isn't appropriate.

When considering issues of beauty or love, there is no scientific basis except feelings.  When one is in danger, then we have certain viewpoints we have to contend with just to cope.  An example, is the view that "when it's your time to die then you will".  This certainly isn't scientific but it can be an important aid in psychologically dealing with an untenable situation (even concepts like good or bad luck would fall into this category).

So, even though I am not religious, I wouldn't deny the importance of feelings in holding a variety of beliefs (not necessarily religious) that wouldn't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

rholley's picture
Becky,


For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

And come to think of it, faith and the Wall Street Journal ?

Believe it or not, if you really look back far enough you will see, religion was created by man. Predominantly by the powerful, as a way of bringing together and ruling the masses in a way that was unattainable otherwise - mentally vs physically. Religion as the belief in god/gods came about in conjunction with organized society. The idea of GOD is a crutch for the weak minded - those who need some higher being to be ultimatley responsible for their own achievments or shortcomings, successes or failures, unexplainable observations or occurances. The belief in an existance of god/gods originated in the unexplainable and was co-opted and corrupted by those in power as a means of staying in power.

Becky Jungbauer's picture
The opium of the people, perhaps?

I'm not going to get into the creation vs evolution argument except to say that as long as you look at the debate only from one paradigm you will never be able to properly understand both sides. The same evidence viewed from two different paradigms will lead to vastly different conclusions. Most of what I've seen of this argument has amounted to name calling, and deprecation of opponents.

I mainly wanted to take exception to the statement that if God created then He is responsible for the problems. To begin with this is an argument based in dualism which Christianity is not. Evil is like cold or darkness they do not exist and are only the the exclusion of God, heat, and light respectively. Secondly if God loves us enough to give us a free will and we choose to reject him should we blame Him for our actions??

If we really want to find the truth such oversimplifications and unwillingness to get into the other guys shoes negate all efforts to that end.

Gerhard Adam's picture
That's simply a cop-out argument.  If a human being treated others (especially those they were responsible for) by simply shrugging shoulders and using the excuse that they didn't follow your advice, they would be uniformly criticized for failing to take the initiative to help.

If there is an omnipotent all-knowing god, then there can be no excuse to creating the world, all the circumstances the hapless creation is subjected to, and  then blaming THEM because they don't fall to their knees in submission.   That's worse than blaming the victims.
Secondly if God loves us enough to give us a free will and we choose to reject him should we blame Him for our actions??

This particular description is particular despicable.  God didn't "give" us anything.  If he created everything then he created us whole (problems and all).  He also created the ability to be rejected.  To punish someone after you created the duality, is truly a low blow.  It's like offering a recovering alcoholic a drink and then blithely shrugging off your responsibility for their problems by saying they should have been stronger in resisting you.

It's no different than the claim that people should pray when they are in a crisis.  Why?  Doesn't an all-knowing god already know what our problem and difficulty is?  Is he that insecure that he needs our verbal begging and pleading before he'll correct something he created?

Sorry, but I don't buy the arguments and I don't like the overall subservient tone that people find so easy to accept when it comes to their divinities.  There are many powerful things in the universe, so I certainly don't consider myself invincible, but be assured that I would never accept anything as being "superior" if the only way I can be recognized is by groveling


rholley's picture
Becky,

You should have known better. "Let a hundred Stapelias bloom, let a thousand schools of fart contend", as Mao Zedong didn't say. There's nowt like t'subject of God to bring out t'devil in folks!

I'm not going to take issue with Dawkins here. One knows where he's coming from, even though he may have had a bad trip (aka miserific vision) following the religious education he received at school. But Karen Armstrong! I only knew of her through conservative news channels, chiding her for telling us all to Talk Nicely to the Taleban (now wouldn't that make a wonderful first line for a poetry competition!) But I have since looked her up on the web, and it turns out that she is a fellow of the Jesus Seminar. This appears to be made up of people who have had a faith crash and now want the rest of the world to join in their mutual wound-licking session.

Just a couple of thoughts. Gerhard says


be assured that I would never accept anything as being "superior" if the only way I can be recognized is by groveling.

If only we had a Tardis perhaps we could go back and suggest to Milton that he put that one in Paradise Lost, but rather more poetically.

As for your own "opium of the people", didn't "Lennon read a book on Marx", as it says in Miss American Pie. That was the start of his undoing.

Thanks Gerhard,
You certainly aren't talking about the Christian God as He revealed Himself to us. There have been a lot of changes in a fundamental understanding of God in the Latin Church and then the Protestant melee has taken it to new heights. Even how we relate to him has drastically changed.

You are definitely still using a dualistic paradigm to view reality.

This forum is way to limited in scope to get into this but may I respectfully suggest you have a look at this article to get a glimpse of the original Christian view of God.

There are a lot of things in Darwinism that don't make sense, there is a lot of evidence that has to be ignored because it doesn't fit, Heck you have to use two competing and mutually exclusive theories to account for everything. It is not a scientific theory but a religious theory as it is neither observable or repeatable. ( gee you'd think that with all the effort that has been expended and with knowledge we have we could at least reproduce the genesis of the first cell that is such a simple accomplishment that it happened by accident)

Gerhard Adam's picture



There are a lot of things in Darwinism that don't make sense, there is a lot of evidence that has to be ignored because it doesn't fit...



I don't care what people choose to believe, so I don't want to insult anyone for their spiritual perspective.  However, when it comes to science the convoluted rationalization is unbelievable.


Intelligent Design argues that evolution couldn't possibly happen because it is so unlikely that probability argues against it.  So, the solution apparently is to START with an axiom that intelligence exists to "jump-start" evolution towards intelligence.  So instead of probability we simply invoke magic, or the favorite "infinity" argument by avoiding the explanation by simply declaring that it always existed.

You cannot explain complexity by declaring that the complexity always existed and that IT was responsible for creating the complexity.

What makes the creationist and ID arguments so disingenous is that they know that if there really is a god, they wouldn't be so presumptious as to suggest that they know how he set about creating the world.  On the other hand, if the Bible is to be taken literally then there's a whole set of other problems that don't make any sense.



HedgehogFive's picture
Paulu (vocative case):

I sense your frustration at the way the Name of God is being treated here.  But though you may feel like a football supporter of the home team, who are being blasphemed by the away supporters on your own hallowed turf, may I urge a little caution.

The idea that the theory of evolution is incompatible with the existence of God was widely trumpeted in the latter half of the 19th century by T.H.Huxley and J.W.Draper, among others.  But would you believe anything those two said on matters theological?  Huxley could never even get his Bible quotes right.

However, in the 1920s, some hyper-zealous Americans (among whom I include the Candian George McCready Price) fell for it hook, line and sinker, and assumed that in order to believe in God one had to discredit the theory of evolution and acceptance of a long age for the Earth.

Many of the things the infidels here are saying about God are indeed an abomination.  But coming out with stuff perhaps fed to you by the Creation Research Society or maybe Answers in Genesis only exacerbates the situation.  Those two organizations appear to have subjected many professing Christians to a sort of Pavlovian conditioning to come out with the unsound arguments they themselves propagate.

I recommend that whenever the unbelievers blaspheme, and you feel the urge to discredit Darwin's science, please to consider what is written on Becky's banner at the top of this article.

. There's nowt like t'subject of God to bring out t'devil in folks
good quote Becky....

yeah I've read the Creation science stuff and it's got some points that need to be answered but at the same time their theology is rather subjective that in turn leads to a distorted perspective. Darwinism is not a good theory but it's all the scientific community has.

Good points Erinaceus Europaeus Huxley had no clue to matters theological. It's pretty hard in a forum like this to make any real headway as the issues behind the simplest statement require volumes to express them adequately and who has time. I think I'm going to give up trying as unless two people have a good understanding of both sides of the issue then they are talking past each other unbeknown to either.

Gerhard just a parting tidbit to consider.
"You cannot explain complexity by declaring that the complexity always existed and that IT was responsible for creating the complexity."

The early church considered that our temporal framework has been temporarily distorted by a selfless God who exists in kairos (Gk) time in order that we can be healed from our current condition in time. Our current perspective is called chronos(Gk) or fallen time which is expressed admirably by the second law of thermodynamics. This rift was created to make it possible to be reconnected to the source of Life who counteracts said law. ie He brings order from chaos. Even the early worship is called the liturgy of time and is understood to help restore a proper perspective on reality. (Interestingly from this perspective Hawkins equations for the big bang (when reworked for this paradigm) work.

In other words time is seen as a rift in eternity beginning with Christ and extending both ways through history. At the end of this rift or at the time we exit the rift (death) all things become immutable and we come face to face with God. To those who have been transformed in time and become selfless and reestablished communion with God it will be life giving and heaven. To those who love themselves and only care about those who will give back to them(ie I love my family because they love and care for me) the pervasive presence of the God who is love will be hated by them and become pure hell.

Meanwhile God allows a lot of pain and discomfort and usually reduced consequences for our thoughts and actions to hopefully shake us to our senses and begin the process of becoming as selfless as he is which in turn requires a fair bit of discomfort. The choice is ours.
been a slice thanks for the responses but I gotta go. Paul

Comments on the post by Becky Jungbauer |

Ringside Seats For Man Versus God by Becky Jungbauer |

Your post is one of the best I’ve seen on the topic of Evolution.

I don’t believe Darwin intended for his work to become a battle ground. He was not the first British naturalist to write on the subject, and we seldom remember who the others were or what they said.

Darwin made a highly publicized statement about data he collected over seas. It was the over seas travel that gave credibility to his work, a situation that still occurs in England, where I often travel.

After 150 years of debate we don’t have a Darwin law. We still have a Darwin theory. That’s the way it was taught in the schools I attended, and there were very few objections. The science teacher in my small town high school was also an elder in a very conservative religious group, and still managed to teach evolution in scientific terms that would pass a peer review today. The same thing occurred during many semesters of biology in the big city universities. So a fight on the subject is really not necessary.

There might have been the grounds for an argument about time before Einstein’s general relativity, but since then any educated person could easily play the relativity card. An argument still continue. Some people are trying to prove the earth is only 10,000 years old, with out saying which clocks and calendars were used or who did the measuring. It‘s a totally meaningless concept, not even defined in the physical sciences.

Now we are on the verge of having an Einstein law of relativity, either the original field equations or a small variation of them. To make a physical law of Darwin’s work would be a monumental undertaking. For one thing it would have to be precisely stated, statistically tested, and peer reviewed. I’m not aware of anyone who is able or willing to attempt that.

Once a theory becomes a hundred years old it becomes an antique and the realm of antique dealers. So your ring side seat looks like an antique auction. How much is it worth to the bidders.

Not long ago I posted a blog on statistics of evolution under the name of my avatar. At the same time I posted some fairly simple things on relativity, which is my major interest. Some readers noticed how old the image was by style of hair and clothes. Not many guessed my age or education, or the stacks of diplomas and hundreds of credits in science and math.

For evolution theory, I played the duce of clubs, a 12 year old reference to an unpublished opinion by an unnamed person. Does that sound like the duce of clubs? Several people caught on right away and tool a ring side seat. Others wanted to make a fight of it. They put up a pretty good fight too.

The obvious answer to a statistical challenge is the concept of many worlds, but we didn’t get that far. Some bloggers wanted to defend the one world theory, another antique for your auction.

Given the proven fact that there is one universe, there is no statistical way to prove that there isn’t two, three, or many universes. The many world concept develops in the same way.. So the statistics of evolution is just argued for fun. No matter what the odds are, or which mechanisms prevail, if you get enough chances, then you get the world exactly as it is. The arguments move on to the ones I like better. With many universes and many worlds, is ours the most advanced? If not is there advanced communication between universes and worlds? If so, then you might get some understanding of the opponent in your ring.

You can still can get a ring side seat if you want one in the evolution match.. I prefer to play in the cosmology game where science is on the verge of a major break through that might answer some of the evolution questions. Now I’ve taken my bogs and moved on to a less popular site that is better equipped with high level math and science, not because of evolution, but because this site didn’t get comments on the astrophysical topics.

Amateur Astronomer ( a long time ago )

Becky Jungbauer's picture
You make an interesting point:
I don’t believe Darwin intended for his work to become a battle ground. He was not the first British naturalist to write on the subject, and we seldom remember who the others were or what they said.

Darwin made a highly publicized statement about data he collected over seas. It was the over seas travel that gave credibility to his work, a situation that still occurs in England, where I often travel.

This puts Darwin in a much less contentious light than he's seen lately, and I think, like many issues that are a flashpoint for debate, this one started out as simply a book about some neat findings that supported a revolution in science.

Thanks for the comments!

I tip my hat to you Becky,

Indeed exciting things are happening on the cosmological front so may you truly experience the wonder of discovering the Mysteries of the universe.

I was leaving this forum but I forgot to turn off the email notifications so one more parting word.

"So the statistics of evolution is just argued for fun. No matter what the odds are, or which mechanisms prevail, if you get enough chances, then you get the world exactly as it is."

The statistical argument is overly simplistic as if there is no mechanism that can satisfactorily overcome the 2nd law of thermodynamics then it is the 2nd law that will prevail. I have heard an apt analogy from the Creationist camp that likens the evolution of the first cell to putting all the building supplies for your new house on the lot and having a bulldozer push them around for an eternity. Even if the building should ever appear from the splinters who stops the bulldozer. Invoking eons of time for the process does nothing to guarantee success.

Darwins theory was siezed upon because a) He had travelled. You do know an expert: is a person who speaks officially, more than 100 miles from his home with a briefcase. b) There was a great hunger in the intelligencia of the day to indulge themselves in whatever they wanted and the existence of a God hampered that. They seized upon Darwin's theory to be rid of God. It fundamentally allowed them to dehumanize individuals and treat the whole of creation as common and even profane, to be used any way one saw fit.

The unfortunate thing is, over centuries the Western Church had morphed God into the big guy in the sky who was going to send you to hell to satisfy his eternal indignation unless you "joined his club" so to speak. In short God had become our enemy. Who wouldn't want to escape him. The protestant church tried to right many of the distortions and practices that had grown in the Latin Church but never really got back past these fundamental theological distortions.

So long again folks, been a slice. When you can actually bring this whole debate out of the realm of faith and into observable and repeatable science please do let it be known. Remember being able to out argue your opponent does not make you right. A search for truth requires first and foremost a lot of humility and a great hunger for the truth no matter what it may look like.

Becky Jungbauer's picture
Hi Paul - thanks for your comments. You touch on a point made above by Amateur Astronomer: "You do know an expert is a person who speaks officially, more than 100 miles from his home with a briefcase." I like that - the unknown is a bit more exciting, no? Nothing good can come from Galilee, after all.

I think you make a valid point about the Church as well:
The unfortunate thing is, over centuries the Western Church had morphed God into the big guy in the sky who was going to send you to hell to satisfy his eternal indignation unless you "joined his club" so to speak. In short God had become our enemy. Who wouldn't want to escape him.

As opposed to science leading us down the path of agnosticism and atheism, this gives another perspective: the Church did this unto itself (albeit unintentionally, I suspect). I think this is a problem now, with post-Vatican II adults who grew up with the Baltimore Catechism, learning fire and brimstone in their formative years but then experiencing a radical shift in the way they view God, the Church, and themselves in those relationships. Who wouldn't want to escape the early years, indeed?

rholley's picture
Paul's point reminds me of the following:
It is even arguable that the moment “Heaven” ceases to mean union with God and “Hell” to mean separation from Him, the belief in either is a mischievous superstition; for then we have, on the one hand, a merely “compensatory” belief (a “sequel” to life’s sad story, in which everything will “come all right”) and, on the other, a nightmare which drives men into asylums or makes them persecutors.

Fortunately, by God’s good providence, a strong and steady belief of that self-seeking and sub-religious kind is extremely difficult to maintain, and is perhaps possible only to those who are slightly neurotic.

This is from Reflections on the Psalms by C.S. Lewis ISBN 015676248X.  As one who has been, at times, more than slightly neurotic, I find this passage (in fact the whole chapter) very cogent.

I accept your opinion that the statistical argument is over simplified. Every piece of scientific work that has ever been examined closely was found to be over simplified. The scientific community is always struggling to gain a greater understanding of the complexities. Some of my best college instructors were highly advanced in their scientific accomplishments, but still managed to simplify the lectures to the level of the class, without compromising the science.

From the faith based community people are also struggling for a greater understanding, especially the younger people. Those are the ones who are trying to make sense out of the world that is offered to them. For them the clues from cosmology can help to make a rational choice, even if the scientific parameters are not all measurable at this time. There is a general acceptance that much remains to be discovered, and it gives some hope that the stalemate between faith and knowledge will eventual be resolved by methods that are acceptable to both groups.

The second law of thermodynamics is an interesting example, but beyond the level of some readers. The unanswered question from cosmology is how the Entropy (a measure of how orderly a system is) became more orderly in the past than it is now. It can’t be achieved by random processes unless there were many failed attempts that we don’t know about. The best answer I’ve seen was offered by Boltzmann and Schrödinger in their discussions of the third law of thermodynamics. Now the third law is not usually taught in undergraduate classes, and only taught in abbreviated form at the graduate level. If the view of Schrödinger is taken, then there is a scientific theory to describe how order can come from disorder by non random mechanisms.

Anyone who ever focused a beam of reflected light to a hot spot with a magnifying glass has violated the second law of thermodynamics as it is taught in text books. That is energy moving from a lower temperature to a higher temperature with no work being done on it.

If you want to base you opinions on things that can be inspected and measured in the present time and space, then you need some better text books that don’t leave out the most important points.

The other choice would be to read Schrödinger. Then we can argue about what it means.

I forgot to respond to the bulldozer example, and don’t know if any one is still interested.

The bulldozer is not a random system. It is a highly structured system designed to fail.

There are many examples of this type.

If it was truly random at one time, there is no way to say what state it would be in at another time. The control system would change unpredictably, as would the size and capability of the machine.

The outstanding feature of a random system is that it transfers no information.

In that regard it is very difficult to conceive of a totally random state that does not transform into some other state. Then the concept of evolution is not too hard to grasp.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about how many worlds and universes, who, what, when, and where. Those answers will come in time.

For the faith based people there is a chance to move on to better understanding of what they have and don’t have.

About the statistics, I have enough data to prove either side of the argument.

In conclusion of the bulldozer example, it might build a house for you, but I doubt it.

More likely it will build a garage for it’s self, maybe a double wide garage.

You might get a ring side seat for that.

In answer to your question.

I would not expect to ever get an agreement about God and evolution, not even inside the scientific community.

People such as Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman made statements about God that can be argued by either camp.

Between the time of Darwin and Einstein the scientific community thought it would eventually win.

After Heisenberg, they weren’t sure. ( uncertainty, the humor universally accepted )

After Feynman we can be fairly confident that the debate will never end.

You might notice that the debate is not between science and religion. That is just an argument about the facts. The real debate is inside the scientific community.

In the scientific community a lot of the major advancements were made by people who expressed some type of a concept of God, maybe not the one you were referring to in your question. On the other hand many scientist who are well know for presenting science to the public have strongly denounced the concept all together. So you get a choice.

From Darwin to Feynman the leading scientists gave us both the question and the answer.

Part of the science that tells us there is no God, also tells us our universe will die and there is nothing we can do about it. Some of the same people tell us there are no other living worlds, and we can never travel in time, or go to other stars. What it really means is that some of us can and some of us can’t, or some of us will and some of us won’t.

Einstein taught us about relativity of time, and that the argument about creation will never be won.

Bergmann gave us the equations for design of a engine that can take us to the stars, move planets, and change the passage of time. It is the technology of 1920. So where are the machines today?

Schrödinger taught us that our universe can be regenerated if we get some better science teachers. He also taught us how to harvest energy from the vacuum to power our engines, if we dare. It is the technology of 1935.

The vacuum regulates natural processes and controls how the laws of science function. When that energy is taken to be used for other things, then a lot of big surprises will occur in space and time.

Feynman taught us that antimatter goes backward in time, removing the last hope that the debate would ever end. It just keeps going around.

The answer to your question is that God doesn’t get left behind by evolution and the advancement of science. The debate will go with us to other worlds, stars, and universes.

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From the faith based community we have the report of Ezekiel nearly 2600 years ago, a displaced person and under aged priest in a remote low tech community of people who couldn’t read or write. Ezekiel could read and write but not very well. Still he left for us one of the best UFO reports ever given. It is a story of two bright shiny metal flying machines. One of them went down in flames with a cloud of smoke and an electrical fire in the high voltage engines. The other flying machine came to the rescue commanded by someone who said he was God.

That might answer the question about where the machines are today. When you take the vacuum energy to run your engines, you get dislocated in space and time.

There were 4 sightings reported by Ezekiel. He gave the location and the exact date and hour for each sighting., as if we were going to check on it.

Maybe we will.

Why can't the two coexist hand in hand?

It is not contrary to the faith to believe that God created a species of creatures resembling humans through a series of evolutionary actions and then chose Adam and Eve into which to impart human souls, making them the only humans. What makes a human is the combination of a human body and a human soul. Animals do not sin. So even if there were a bunch of other creatures resembling humans running around, they would not be human unless God gave them souls, which would have only been given to two humans, Adam and Eve.

Taken from davidmacd.com

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