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By Becky Jungbauer | December 24th 2008 10:03 PM | 18 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Becky Jungbauer

A scientist and journalist by training, I enjoy all things science, especially science-related humor. My column title is a throwback to Jane Austen's famous first line in Pride and Prejudice


... Full Bio

The Vatican is recasting the most famous victim of its Inquisition as a man of faith, just in time for the 400th anniversary of Galileo's telescope and the U.N.-designated International Year of Astronomy next year, according to the AP story.

And people say the Roman Catholic Church is adverse to change. It just needs 400 years to think about it first.


Pope Benedict XVI paid tribute to the Italian astronomer and physicist Sunday, saying he and other scientists had helped the faithful better understand and "contemplate with gratitude the Lord's works."

In May, several Vatican officials will participate in an international conference to re-examine the Galileo affair, and top Vatican officials are now saying Galileo should be named the "patron" of the dialogue between faith and reason.

The story further reports that the Church has "for years been striving to shed its reputation for being hostile to science, in part by producing top-notch research out of its own telescope."

My three favorite quotes: one, the 1992 Pope JPII reference to the ruling against Galileo back in 1633, saying it resulted from "tragic mutual incomprehension." Nice - put part of the blame on a dead guy that can't defend himself, while also asserting that you were partially correct. Two, that Galileo was "a man of faith who saw nature as a book authored by God." Very poetic. Three, that Galileo should be the patron of dialogue between faith and reason. I wonder what PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins would think of that.



Comments

rholley's picture
Ms Jungbauer,

I suggest you do a little serious reading.  And I mean a little.

First, “What is This Thing Called Science?” by A.F.Chalmers, which in the first chapter or two gives a good account of the scientific difficulties surrounding Galileo’s discoveries.

Second: “Great Feuds in Science: Ten of the Liveliest Disputes Ever” by Hal Hellman.  Having been exposed to the “political” Galileo of Bertolt Brecht in my younger days, this was only the second of three books which much later opened my mind to Galileo’s great achievements.  Nevertheless, I also learnt that in this that in The Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems (Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo) the argument for the traditional view was put forward by one Simplicio.  As Wikipedia politely says:
The character’s name is that of sixth-century (Aristotelian) philosopher Simplicius, but the Inquisition would object to its resemblance to “simpleton.”

That’s a bit gentle, perhaps.  It looks to my own overgrown schoolboy mind as if Galileo is obliquely calling the Pope a cloth-head.  But maybe like in Judges 14:4,
[Samson’s] parents did not know that this was from the LORD, who was seeking an occasion to confront the Philistines;

so in the Galileo affair God was using the occasion to weaken the Roman Church’s intellectual street-cred.

You finish by invoking the names of Richard Dawkins and P.Z.Myers.  Are you trying to spoil my Christmas?  The former seems to have a “wurm” inside him, destroying the scientist he was and hurling him against religion the way toxoplasmosis sends mice out in the face of a cat.  I am not criticizing him over this: in the kind of semi-posh English education he received, the eggs of this parasite are easily picked up in religious studies.

The latter, however, I find so offensive that, for a very short period, I even wondered whether evolution should be taught at school level.

jtwitten's picture
Perhaps I am a Simplicio (I've been called worse), but your point is?  Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church has not been backpedaling like a cheese eating surrender monkey (singes mangeurs de fromage) in a Tampa 2 Zone?

Hopefully, you don't evaluate all theories by the personal offensiveness of the individuals promoting them.  That being said, I do not aways enjoy PZ's tactics, nor the zealousness of his acolytes, and may be the only member of the Scientific Blogging team that does not subscribe to his blog.


rholley's picture
Perhaps I am a Simplicio (I’ve been called worse),

No way, José.

but your point is? Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church has not been backpedaling like a cheese eating surrender monkey (singes mangeurs de fromage) in a Tampa 2 Zone?

I don’t get the reference – perhaps it only makes sense west of the Atlantic. They do seem to be in a fix over that one. But I do get tired of physicists basking in Galileo’s reflected glory and developing a wire about themselves.

Hopefully, you don’t evaluate all theories by the personal offensiveness of the individuals promoting them.

I hope I don’t evaluate any scientific theories that way. If there is anything to the bit about “teaching evolution at school level”, apart from being a temporary glitch, it is that young people can get too big-headed when exposed to big ideas. After all, we now know that teenagers have not developed a full emotional toolkit.

That being said, I do not always enjoy PZ’s tactics, nor the zealousness of his acolytes, and may be the only member of the Scientific Blogging team that does not subscribe to his blog.

I only became aware of his blog when an academic acquaintance of mine was subjected to an attack by webgoblins which was ORC(h)estrated by PZ.

Hank's picture
I don't think there is much overlap between the scienceblogs writers/audience and ours.   In v1 of this site I had a few writers over there on my blogroll but they mostly seem to have stopped writing.    The original people there seem to do quite well in traffic but more recent people not so much.

Their method - recruiting bloggers rather than researchers or science writers, and finding ones that are already popular - is very smart.  It makes sure they have the biggest audience.  But they have 70 writers and we have nowhere near that and if you take out PZ, we're bigger than they are.  If you take out their top 5, they're not even close to us.    

So people like to read stuff from scientists on culture wars (hey, Huffington Post is popular too, and that is left wing actors writing on politics and culture) but people like to read more serious things too.

Becky Jungbauer's picture
Hi Josh and Robert - thanks for the comments. I was not advocating Myers' and Dawkins' views by including them in my blog - I was simply wondering out loud (on screen?) what their rants about the idea of using Galileo as a spokesperson for faith/science dialogue would be. I don't subscribe to PZ's blog; I am aware of it and have perused it occasionally when it comes up as a link in another story. Didn't mean to set off a firestorm; I just blogged about the Galileo story because I read it in the local daily paper over my morning coffee and thought it was interesting! While I may have leanings one way or another, I do like to consider all "sides" and try to remain open to all points of view, however wrong they may be (since of course, I am always right).

rholley's picture
Becky,

There's so much more to be said about Galileo, and what he achieved.  But instead I'll refer to another hero of science:

    "Doctor, Doctor!  You must help me, it's my son!"

    "What's the problem, Mrs Copernicus?"

    "He's gone off his food, won't speak to anyone, and has started sleeping by day and shuffling around by night!"

    "You needn't worry about that, Mrs Copernicus.  This often happens to young men when they learn that the rest of  the world doesn't revolve around themselves."

Becky Jungbauer's picture

Ha ha! Now that is a good joke - I'll have to add it to my repertoire of amazing science jokes. I feel so sorry for whoever goes to the next party I attend. By the way, I really like your image - it looks like the fossil of a crustacean of some sort but I'm guessing I'm way off the mark.



rholley's picture
Becky,

The image comes from my picture gallery, with explanation on this page.

I must add the attribution after we return to work.  The micrograph is by the same lady who produced this picture - what do you think they resemble? But at the moment we're stuck in the five-day "winterval" between Boxing Day and New Year.  Both the Ancient Egyptians and the Pre-Columbian Mayas thought 360 made a decent calendar, so the five days were left over in a buffer zone.  The Ancient Egyptians seem to have decided that these were a time to party, but the Mayas regarded them with dread.


Becky Jungbauer's picture
I had guessed it was some sort of polymer, given your background, but I still like my crab fossil idea. :) The other pic looks a bit like my sleeping sickness giant plush microbe! I would love to have five days as a buffer zone between this year and the next.

Becky Jungbauer's picture
Which reminds me - I found this little slide show of nano-scale materials - you might like it.

rholley's picture
I particularly liked image  #2 - though it does look as if some piano-wrecking had taken place.

jtwitten's picture
Actually, I was just trying to figure out what the point of your critique was. 

Explaining the Tampa 2 Zone in detail would require about 30 minutes and a chalkboard.  Suffice it to say that a lot of backpedaling is involved.

Becky, it does not take a special situation to get Dawkins or PZ to rant about the Catholic Church.

Robert, I think you have minion-envy.  I know Hank wishes he had as many minions as PZ.

Hank's picture
Guilty!   Sure, this site gets a lot of readers, but I personally get jack compared to him - or at least the numbers he states, which is about 60% of their total over there.    We don't have anyone yet pulling down that kind of  readership or the big money that he gets for doing it.

Someone will eventually but we're more content driven than personality driven right now.   How dare people show up just expecting to read science??

HedgehogFive's picture
You should try getting the BBC to admit it's wrong!

I guess the biggest surprise from first reading of Galileo’s Two New Sciences (mechanics and strength of materials) during my early years overseas was how little (if any) objection it would receive in modern times, even from the more extreme fringes. His other books are not opposed much either. So I hope it means that some progress has been made since his time.

It is hard to imagine that so much fuss would be made over such small things, and Galileo would be forced by his friend to swear a lie, and live under house to save his life.

At first the Two New Sciences was printed secretly in a protestant country by a publishing company that is still in business. So it looks like they made a lot of right choices over the years.

Then we remember that Newton’s work was not printed in English during his life time, and Copernicus issued his work with an apology written in the front.

I wonder how the future centuries will look back at the unfinished debates of our times.

In the 20th century we received the big bang theory of creation from a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, and it was tested with scientific methods instead of church authority. So it does look like progress.

I guess the biggest surprise from first reading of Galileo’s Two New Sciences (mechanics and strength of materials) during my early years overseas was how little (if any) objection it would receive in modern times, even from the more extreme fringes. His other books are not opposed much either. So I hope it means that some progress has been made since his time.

It is hard to imagine that so much fuss would be made over such small things, and Galileo would be forced by his friend to swear a lie, and live under house to save his life.

At first the Two New Sciences was printed secretly in a protestant country by a publishing company that is still in business. So it looks like they made a lot of right choices over the years.

Then we remember that Newton’s work was not printed in English during his life time, and Copernicus issued his work with an apology written in the front.

I wonder how the future centuries will look back at the unfinished debates of our times.

In the 20th century we received the big bang theory of creation from a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, and it was tested with scientific methods instead of church authority. So it does look like progress.

**************************

Galileo started one of the greatest scientific debates of all times that is still being argued by the best scientific minds. It doesn’t get a lot of attention in public.

Before Galileo the physical world was described in geometrical terms with few exceptions. People tried to say what they saw with little regard to what caused it to be that way.

Copernicus didn’t challenge the geometrical methods but Galileo did.

The problem with mathematics of that time was it was built upon a geometry that contained assumptions that couldn’t be proven logically.

Galileo defined a cause of the actions he wrote about. That’s what nearly got him killed. It’s still a bit dangerous.

Between the time of Galileo and Einstein everything was believed to have a cause, even if people didn’t know what the cause was. Then Einstein started a revolution.

General relativity describes the physical world in terms of a geometry that is altered by physical causes that can be identified.

The early pioneers of quantum mechanics went further and removed the identifiable causes for very small actions, even for cases when many small actions add up to a big result that has an identifiable cause. The small actions were given random variables inside a frame work an orderly world. Then the fight began.

Einstein argued with Bohr and never resolved the issue. Einstein argued for hidden causes, but that became a very unpopular opinion. A lot of scientists thought the theories should be made from things that can be measured. It makes sense.

The opinion of Bohr prevailed, because predictions made from quantum mechanics has passed a great many physical tests, and failed none. Even then the quantum mechanics was not complete, because there were physical things like gravity that it couldn’t predict.

Galileo’s idea of there being causes for actions fell out of favor for small things, but continued to be accepted for large actions that are collections of small things. It sounds irrational.

Eventually quantum mechanics added string theory, because string theory does appear to predict gravity.

Now for the humor.

String theory doesn’t make sense unless it has extra dimensions, most of them rolled up in tiny packages, or traveling at light speed, and hidden from view, considerably more dimensions than the 4 of space and time that Einstein used. There are choices between 10 dimensions for special cases or 26 dimensions for general cases.

It’s very hard to think in 26 dimensions.

In recent times the argument of Galileo and Einstein was taken up by Roger Penrose, while Stephen Hawking played the part of Bohr in their book “The Nature Of Space And Time.”

The basic argument is that if there are hidden dimensions, then there might be hidden variables in them.

Eventually there is a hope of resolving the issue when we learn how to travel near light speed. Then the theories say that hidden dimensions will open up and become visible to us. Its like the Lorentz contraction in reverse.

Galileo might get the last laugh.

I’m guessing there is a cause for everything, even if it is the uncertainty principle, but can’t prove it.

In reading the source documents I came to a somewhat different opinion about Galileo than is often given in reference works.

Galileo differed from Copernicus in three major ways.

Copernicus avoided conflicts as often as possible and asked advice from everyone, building a consensus, before issuing his book On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres. He clearly stated at the beginning of the book that his intent was to provide a more accurate calendar with mathematical models, that were not intended to describe a physical system. Then he issued an apology for not doing a better job.

Copernicus continued the long tradition with geometrical presentation, in the passive voice. His work was well received during his life time if not universally accepted.

Galileo on the other hand taught the Copernican system as a proven fact of a physical system, with a ponder motive cause in the active voice. He seldom asked for advice or accepted it when offered. The Copernican system came to him early in his teaching career, and he took every occasion to contend with the senior professors who disapproved of the new system after a life time teaching about Ptolemy.

With considerable skill Galileo converted disapproval into outrage and hostile opposition. It was the academic opposition that first brought Galileo unto trouble with the church.

The inquisition found him not guilty, but the Copernican system was banned, conditionally, and temporarily until it could be edited to contain the dispute that Galileo created. Later when Galileo’s work was denounced, the ban was permanent and absolute.

Eventually Galileo was charged with violating a commission for impartiality in the comparison of the two systems in his book Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, a charge that was true.

His enemies in the academic community did not bring him into the inquisition the second time, they were more inclined to lynch him. Galileo’s friends brought him into the inquisition, negotiated a plea bargain, and got him off very lightly on a sentence that appeared to be extremely harsh, but in fact was nothing more than early retirement, surrounded by friends, with a book deal in a foreign country to support him in old age.

So the church has issued an apology to Galileo. It looks like another plea bargain.

I really wonder how Galileo would be received today by the academic community, if he came to teach in the local university.

Now the academic community is about to receive another revolution of the Copernican type, started by cautious old scholars. The next steps will be taken by a group of young Galileos who come to teach.

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