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By Dave Deamer | April 30th 2009 03:00 AM | 164 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Dave Deamer

My research focuses on a variety of topics related to membrane biophysics, including the origin of cell membranes and the use of transmembrane nanopores to analyze nucleic acids. Over the past 25... Full Bio

Many people, perhaps most, hate the idea that life might depend on chance processes. It is a human tendency to search for meaning, and what could be more meaningful than the belief that our lives have a greater purpose, that all life in fact is guided by a supreme intelligence which manifests itself even at the level of individual molecules? 

Proponents of intelligent design believe that the components of life are so complex that they could not possibly have been produced by an evolutionary process. To bolster their argument, they calculate the odds that a specific protein might assemble by chance in the prebiotic environment. The odds against such a chance assembly are so astronomically immense that a protein required for life to begin could not possibly have assembled by chance on the early Earth.  Therefore, the argument goes, life must have been designed.


 It is not my purpose to argue against this belief, but the intelligent design argument uses a statistical tool of science -- a probability calculation  -- to make a point, so I will use another tool of science, which is to propose an alternative hypothesis and test it.  In living cells, most catalysts are protein enzymes, composed of amino acids, but in the 1980s another kind of catalyst was discovered. These are RNA molecules composed of nucleotides that are now called ribozymes. Because a ribozyme can act both as a catalyst and as a carrier of genetic information in its nucleotide sequence, it has been proposed that life passed through an RNA World phase that did not require DNA and proteins. 

For the purposes of today’s column I will go through the probability  calculation that a specific ribozyme might assemble by chance. Assume that the ribozyme is 300 nucleotides long, and that at each position there could be any of four nucleotides present. The chances of that ribozyme assembling are then 4^300,  a number so large that it could not possibly happen by chance even once in 13 billion years, the age of the universe.

But life DID begin! Could we be missing something?

The answer, of course, is yes, we are. The calculation assumes that a single specific ribozyme must be synthesized for life to begin, but that’s not how it works. Instead,  let’s make the plausible assumption that an enormous number of random polymers are synthesized, which are then subject to selection and evolution. This is the alternative hypothesis, and we can test it.


Now I will recall a classic experiment by David Bartel and Jack Szostak, published in Science in 1993. Their goal was to see if a completely random system of molecules could undergo selection in such a way that defined species of molecules emerged with specific properties. They began by synthesizing many trillions of different RNA molecules about 300 nucleotides long, but the nucleotides were all random nucleotide sequences. Nucleotides, by the way, are monomers of the nucleic acids DNA and RNA, just as amino acids are the monomers, or subunits, of proteins, and making random sequences is easy to do with modern methods of molecular biology.

They reasoned that buried in those trillions were a few catalytic RNA molecules called ribozymes that happened to catalyze a ligation reaction, in which one strand of RNA is linked to a second strand. The RNA strands to be ligated were attached to small beads on a column, then were exposed to the trillions of random sequences simply by flushing them through the column. This process could fish out any RNA molecules that happened to have even a weak ability to catalyze the reaction. They then amplified those molecules and put them back in for a second round, repeating the process for 10 rounds. By the way, this is the same basic logic that breeders use when they select for a property such as coat color in dogs. 


The results were amazing. After only 4 rounds of selection and amplification they began to see an increase in catalytic activity, and after 10 rounds the rate was 7 million times faster than the uncatalyzed rate. It was even possible to watch the RNA evolve. Nucleic acids can be separated and visualized by a technique called gel electrophoresis. The mixture is put in at the top of a gel held between two glass plates and a voltage is applied. Small molecules travel fastest through the gel, and larger molecules move more slowly, so they are separated. In this case, RNA molecules having a specific length produce a visible band in a gel. At the start of the reaction, nothing could be seen, because all the molecules are different. But with each cycle new bands appeared. Some came to dominate the reaction, while others went extinct.


Bartel and Szostak’s results have been repeated and extended by other researchers, and they demonstrate a fundamental principle of evolution at the molecular level. At the start of the experiment, every molecule of RNA was different from all the rest because they were assembled by a chance process. There were no species, just a mixture of trillions of different molecules. But then a selective hurdle was imposed, a ligation reaction that allowed only certain molecules to survive and reproduce enzymatically.

In a few generations groups of molecules began to emerge that displayed ever-increasing catalytic function. In other words, species of molecules appeared out of this random mixture in an evolutionary process that closely reflects the natural selection that Darwin outlined for populations of higher animals. These RNA molecules were defined by the sequence of bases in their structures, which caused them to fold into specific conformations that had catalytic properties. The sequences were in essence analogous to genes, because the information they contained was passed between generations during the amplification process. 


The Bartel and Szostak experiment directly refutes the argument that the odds are stacked against an origin of life by natural processes. The inescapable conclusion is that genetic information can in fact emerge from random mixtures of polymers, as long as the populations contain large numbers of polymeric molecules with variable monomer sequences, and a way to select and amplify a specific property. 


I will close with a quote from Freeman Dyson, a theoretical physicist at Princeton University who also enjoys thinking about the origin of life:


“You  had what I call the garbage bag model. The early cells were just  little bags of some kind of cell membrane, which might have been  oily or it might have been a metal oxide.  And inside you  had a more or less random collection of organic molecules, with the  characteristic that small molecules could diffuse in through the  membrane, but big molecules could not diffuse out. By converting  small molecules into big molecules, you could concentrate the organic  contents on the inside, so the cells would become more concentrated  and the chemistry would gradually become more efficient. So these  things could evolve without any kind of replication.  It's a  simple statistical inheritance.  When a cell became so big that  it got cut in half, or shaken in half, by some rainstorm or environmental  disturbance, it would then produce two cells which would be its daughters,  which would inherit, more or less, but only statistically, the chemical  machinery inside.  Evolution could work under those conditions.”



Comments

Steve Davis's picture
Thank you Dave. And its nice to see a quote from Dyson, he's a great thinker. His reference to evolution without replication was an interesting point also.

Hank's picture
So how did these self-catalyzing nucleotides arise?   As Stanley Miller has said, 'life has to happen easily'  so have researchers synthesized uracil in Earth conditions circa -4 billion years ago?

Dave Deamer's picture
     The nucleotides themselves are not catalysts. Only after they are linked together into a long polymer called a ribozyme does catalytic activity arise, and the ribozyme must fold into a specific configuration for this to happen. When you have trillions of different RNA molecules, a few of them will happen to have a nucleotide sequence that permits them to fold  into a catalyst, and the Bartel and Szostak experiment depends on this chance process.     But your main question concerns how nucleotides might be synthesized by non-biological processes, as Miller showed for amino acids. Keep in mind that a nucleotide in RNA consists of a base, a phosphate and a ribose sugar. Any of four bases are used -- adenine, uracil, guanine or cytosine -- and these can certainly be produced by non-biological processes. For instance, John Oro showed in the early 1960s that adenine can be synthesized from five cyanide (HCN) molecules. Similarly, a whole suite of sugars, including ribose, are synthesized when formaldehyde (HCHO)  reacts with itself, and phosphate was available on the early Earth as mineral deposits. The problem is, how did a base, a ribose and a phosphate get linked together into a nucleotide? This is a tough one, and we don't have convincing answers yet. One possibility is that RNA is a later development, and the first polymer was a simpler version called peptide-nucleic acid (PNA) in which the monomers are linked by peptide bonds rather than the phosphodiester bonds of nucleic acids. 

Hank's picture
Excellent,thanks.   Your insight is a lot more comprehensive than my layman understanding but I had thought PNA wasn't the primordial replicator because no one could be sure (in the scientific sense of sure)  it could have existed under what is considered the likely prebiotic conditions.    

Still, biology has chased that old 'miracle' into a pretty remote corner - that self-replicating molecule that  existed 'simply' and evolved into a more complex one is out there.   It'll be found in our lifetimes, that's for sure.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
till, biology has chased that old 'miracle' into a pretty remote corner

That's the great thing about Szostak's work (and the work of others). These guys have gone beyond speculation. They've walked into the lab and done some pretty amazing chemistry - in the end, it's the physical results that counts.
One thing to keep in mind about this whole topic is that it's less important to understand exactly how life arose specifically on this earth, than it is to understand (and experimentally demonstrate) how life  can arise from abiotic processes. The first question is a historical one; the second really gets to the scientific heart of this topic.


So science will never be able to prove that on our earth, in this one case, that there wasn't some mysterious, unexplained designer involved, but science will most likely be able to demonstrate that life can arise from non-living elements.


I always thought that some of the "improbability that life can spontaneously evolve" arguments to be missing key elements. One is the fact that life is already here as was noted.

For example, how probable is it that any one specific human would be born with their unique combination of genes? I don't venture to calculate the probabilities, but the probability of any one specific individual arising is vastly low. Any single person's genotype is the product of all of their ancestors and of all of the events and influences in their ancestors lives that led up to their reproducing.

So, can you demonstrate mathematically that it is very very unlikely for you or me to exist? Yes, but it proves nothing. In fact it proves that some of these lines of argument are false since they are looking at after-the-fact events that did in fact happen.

Maybe this line of argument has been developed elsewhere, but it always comes to mind when I read something like this.

Perhaps the basic assumption of those who propose a designer from the unlikelihood of life evolving randomly is this: the greater the improbability, the more likely a Designer. Wouldn't one have to answer that the most unlikely phenomenon of all is the existence of a Designer? How to calculate the odds for that?

Methinks you are dealing so far with the arguments only of those intelligent design advocates who rely on the calculations of chance that you convincingly vaporize. The less reachable argument for ID is that the very logic of chemistry and physics and mathematics that you use so deftly and that you describe so thoroughly in the physical world is not a logic or intelligence that can arise randomly.

I have not followed the debate at this level except occasionally, and the last time I did any extensive reading was in physicist Paul Davies' book, "The Mind of God." As I recall, he concluded that the design we see in the physical world does not necessarily require a designer, but as I also recall, his conclusion was inconclusive.

Interesting speculation on how live could have evolved through RNA replication. I think the main point to be derived from the "Designer" hypothesis is the question "Where did the designer come from?" which means that it is not really an explanation after all.

A) I am a believer in intelligent design.
B) I am a mathematician and engineer.
C) These theories mean nothing to me without the statistical plausibilities of every assumption given. I am glad you can play in the sand box.

This reminds me of a joke:

Two scientists confront God and say that they can create life JUST as well as Him. God says "allright, in fact I'll give you as much time as you need" . He then reaches down and forms a wonderful living being from the Earth, with all of the amazing properties of his first creation.

The scientists then together, reach down to the ground that they stand and scoop up their first handful of dirt to start their long process. But God says "OH NO, you get your OWN dirt."

Hank's picture
Belief is fine, it's when people refuse to accept science or want religion taught in science classes there tends to be a schism.   There is also a greater propensity for this kind of if-you-don't-kn0w-every-step-it-isn't-real thinking among engineers, it seems, even though I have never met an engineer who could accurately define a magnetic field without being recursive, which does not prevent the $250 billion semiconductor industry from functioning just fine.  So it goes with science.

I believe in intelligent design in engineering.   This would not prevent me from wanting to know why things go nonlinear - but you seem to be contending they can't go nonlinear unless we can predict exactly when and how it will happen and its result.   Something no engineer can do.

If you can't say exactly when and how, it is still faith in an unknown. I choose to put my belief in the God who has done a miraculous work in my heart, and in the souls of countless individuals on the planet.

To a scientist, it's still all hypothesis, unknown, and conjecture- statistically plausible or not.

What's funny is, well, we're never going to know, you know?! :) No matter how many RNA we put through a sieve.

Gerhard Adam's picture
To me, I have a very simple question to the creationist:

Who created water, since the book of Genesis clearly indicates its presence before the first act of creation occurs.  Since we already know water is made of up Hydrogen and Oxygen, then these two elements must also have existed before the first act of creation.  So ..... where did they come from?

BTW ... this also indicates that God, heaven, angels, etc. must all be made of substances that are outside the known elements since they could not have existed from known materials before the act of creation.

I don't mean this in jest, honestly, but who created your water? yes yes, protons, electrons, quarks, strings, bigbang, etc... Steven Hawkings math says "it just had to happen"...I find that a bigger leap of faith than anything else. Faith in the root cause of my God is a lot less faithful then 'out of nothing'....

Oh, I did not answer your question, apologies. " Where'd the water come from ".

There are a lot of things, and details, missing in the creation story, that I concede. (RNA, etc, included) But it's really not up to me to say that our creator's first day on the job was OUR day ONE in the bible. THAT, would be rather haughty of the human race to think so.

In my first post I mentioned that I am an engineer and mathematician. But to earn a living, I now live as an artist. Humankind is more than just chemical processes, it's about heart and soul. Just don't bank on the marbles mentioned below, look at the space created in the jar between the marbles. Something has to make us human.

Gerhard Adam's picture

Sorry but that seems to be both unnecessarily restrictive and fundamentally irrelevant.

Being "just a chemical process" is true, but it is hardly complete.  I find your position to be unnecessarily biased towards humankind. 

I'm equally not sure why you think the space between the marbles is relevant to the discussion about probabilities.

We already know what makes us human.  What I fail to see is why people think that one can attribute all the developments and achievements (artistic or otherwise) of a few select individuals to humanity at large.  The average individual is largely incapable of producing anything noteworthy and many lack even the most fundamental appreciation of such an achievement. 



rholley's picture
This is an incredibly tedious topic, but


I find your position to be unnecessarily biased towards humankind. 

would make a wonderful line in a science-fiction drama.  Does this ring a bell, anyone?

Gerhard Adam's picture
I'll never understand how it's supposedly an act of faith to say "it just had to happen", and then turn around and add a hundred times as many conditions and suppositions and suddenly it supposedly makes sense?


Gerhard Adam's picture
"I don't mean this in jest, honestly, but who created your water?"

Sorry, but I don't require a WHO?

no WHO, i can take that one. but regardless, to me it comes down to ROOT cause.

Gerhard Adam's picture
But you haven't established a root cause.  You've simply created an arrangement that supplies one particular root cause, and then promptly ignores the other.

You cannot say that science must explain a root cause, when you are content to offer an explanation that is more involved, that also provides no root cause (and simply using the word infinity isn't an explanation).

I am really sick of the "X takes more faith than Y" nonsense that creationists think is so clever. It's quite the opposite. I can definitively answer you question quite easily with absolutely zero appeal to faith whatsoever. The answer is, "things always have to be somehow". If they weren't one way then they would be another, and you would be asking, "why are they that way instead of some other way". You assume that there is some "reason", although the limit of your reason appears to be, "because god said so, that's why". Even a two-year-old can see that this isn't any kind of legitimate answer. A better answer is, "Why do you think there is a reason? Do you know that it requires a reason? What do you mean by a 'reason'". A more compact form of this answer is, "I don't know, but that doesn't entitle me to just make something up and go around pretending that I've somehow solved the problem."

Now then, you fallaciously assume that things had to be created, begging the very question at issue. Also, you should really update your theology readings, because even fervent theists have long ago abandoned the "out of nothing" phrase. It is a straw man. Nobody said that things have to come "out of nothing". You assume that there was nothing, but that premise is entirely without merit. No theory, such as the Big Bang, starts with "nothing".

Anyway, I suspect that you won't like this answer because I also suspect that you aren't really asking questions in good faith. You can accuse me of haviing faith, but at least it is "good faith" attempts to find the answers. I'm willing to change my views when new info comes along, but I suspect that you aren't, because you arrogantly believe that you already know everything you need to know via divine revelation.

hmm, this is really easily solved!

Allow me to establish two facts first,

1) Creationists of my sort operate on the assumption that the Bible is the absolute and true word of God, and is factually correct for all purposes of deduction from information within.
2) In order to contradict the argument that the creation account cannot be factual, you have momentarily borrowed this concept of the absolute truth of the Bible to question whether it can indeed be trusted.

So, if I may refer to the Bible, it doesn't need a lot of searching to find a reply to your question. The answer, is that the basic premise of your challenge is wrong, "Who created water, since the book of Genesis clearly indicates its presence before the first act of creation occurs. " because the first act of creation comes before the first mention of water.

Read Gen 1:1 clearly. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Gen 1:2 THEN reads, "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Line 1, creation of the heavens and the earth is the very first act of creation. Line 2 shows the existence of water "the waters". God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth had water in it. QED.

(to the above commentor Orley, if I may gently suggest, many times the Bible has simple answers before we try to use our limited abilities to raitonalise. referring to the Bible as first step may be a good idea in future, it would have saved you a few sketchy-sounding arguments.)

Gerhard Adam's picture
This is one of the problems I have with this use of the word "random" to describe processes that aren't. 

There are laws that govern interactions, so it isn't the same as arbitrarily pulling some colored marbles from a bowl.   Atoms have chemical interactions that indicate their "preferences" for bonding, and electrons/protons display attractive forces that will dictate what interactions are possible.

While pulling a certain number of colored marbles from a bowl may be a "random" process, it certainly wouldn't be nearly as "random" if we stipulated that each marble was positively or negatively charged.  We would not only expect to see increased complexity in what was extracted, but the possible combinations would extend far beyond a simple one-marble extraction.

Similarly there when we add other variables as sources of energy, the possible interactions increases again, moving it even farther away from a "random" process.  While we may certainly argue that the precise process is unknown, it most certainly isn't random.

When we add in the iterative properties that many chemical interactions have, it certainly doesn't come as a surprise that many of the possible outcomes represent chaotic events (where any possible result is completely unpredictable without an absolute understanding of the initial conditions).  Once again, this doesn't render them "random" but rather they are part of a deterministic process that is simply highly dependent on a particular set of initial conditions.

Using probability calculations always creates the implication that life is similar to a roll of the dice, where it might be much more appropriate to suggest that it is a roll of metal dice, on a electro-magnetic table with periodic discharges of mechanical and electromagnetic energy disturbances that would ultimately determine what number is rolled.

Wallace Kaufman's picture
I don't have a conclusion on this question, but I have questions about the conclusions.  Gerhard, the question your position raises, is from where came those laws of which you speak, and why these laws rather than others?

And since we have no idea whether the scientific method can answer all questions about nature and the cosmos, acting as if it could is certainly a leap of faith. 

Although I doubt it is true, I think it is worth considering that while we are often accused of "playing God," it is also possible that God is playing us.

Gerhard Adam's picture

"...from where came those laws of which you speak, and why these laws rather than others?"

While I can appreciate the sentiment, these seem like the wrong questions.  For example, assuming that you're married (or have a girlfriend), one could easily ask what the probability was that you two would meet and have a relationship.  If you examined each of the events in your lives, you would be forced to marvel at the improbable set of circumstances that brought you together.

What is incorrect about this perspective, is that it poses the question in reverse as if you had fore-knowledge about who you would be in a relationship with rather than simply that you responded to what was there. 

It is irrelevant to discuss who else you might've had a relationship with just as it is irrelevant to discuss whether or not other laws of physics are possible.  What matter is that we have what we have, and it is those circumstances that have created the environment wherein a lifeform could evolve which asks the question.  To ascribe a specific purpose to this is unnecessarily introducing variables that don't provide any answers.

While people are certainly fond of suggesting that there is a divine purpose to their lives, in truth it is a weak argument, since by definition, a creator doesn't have any need of our services.  Therefore, at best, it becomes a sort of "game" wherein the participants are asked to perform their roles despite the fact that they are fundamentally unnecessary.  It is well and good to talk about experiences making us stronger, or of doing good, but once again .... what's the point, since if this were truly an objective a divine creator could much more easily accomplish the same goal.

At this point, the argument usually shifts to "free-will" but this is also misleading, since we could legitimately question how "free" our will is, when the parameters of our existence are already pre-determined by an all-knowing diety.  This is a particularly flawed argument given that most religious groups tend to view this diety as being our "father" and we, his children.  However, any parent with a modicum of experience would readily tell you that all children have the desire to express their "free will", but only the truly irresponsible parent would allow it to occur at all times.  Yet, apparently this isn't a problem for the diety, regardless of how far off track any individual may stray.

It does no good to blame evil, since that would actually suggest that a diety is powerless to act against it.  So if not powerless, then it must be intentionally allowed to happen.


"And since we have no idea whether the scientific method can answer all questions about nature and the cosmos, acting as if it could is certainly a leap of faith. "

You could certainly make that argument although you're shifting the meaning of the word "faith" from the religious sense, to the more colloquial usage which generally describes confidence.  Science has always attempted to minimze the number of assumptions that need to be made, and leaves itself open to recognizing that what is known today may change tomorrow.  Articles of "faith" in the religious sense already profess to know the answers despite have a rather poor history of accuracy.

The simple reality is that religious belief is ultimately a luxury that survives because there are alot of scientists that ensure that people don't actually have to live according to their beliefs.  If you get sick, you can rely on science to heal you.  Your use of modern technology is based on the hard work of human beings that have devoted their lives to studying and understanding the phenomenon in the world. 

Whether or not science can ever satisfactorily answer ALL questions isn't really the issue.  I am quite confident that religion will answer NONE of them, since it voluntarily elects to not ask any questions.



nice response. Somewhere along there I was wondering what part of the scientific method folks don't understand. I think they would rather argue and wear down folks to try to win an argument rather than use the scientific method and data to determine what can be determined using the scientific method.

Wallace Kaufman's picture
I'm afraid that while you and I might have the same perspective on the possibility of a deity, we do not have the same sense of what constitutes a valid argument.  For instance, "This is a particularly flawed argument given that most religious groups
tend to view this deity as being our "father" and we, his children. "

Since when does the way most people interpret an argument become a flaw in the argument itself?  If most people think evolution is always gradual and slow, that does not invalidate the argument of evolution.

Second, you try to negate the arguments for a creator by defining what you assume are the characteristics and mind of a creator.  (C.S. Lewis has dealt eloquently with such artificial limits and projection.)  For starters you commit the fallacy of assuming metaphors are literal. 

Whether the scientific confidence in reason is akin to faith, is relatively simple.  Those who argue that there's a big difference would like to believe scientists have nothing in common with religious believers.  One could say that religious faith is a confidence in the existence of a creator.  Now where are we? 

Has science minimized the assumptions any more than religious believers?  They have one assumption, that nature was created by design.  After that they become very diverse as to why, how it played out, etc.  That may explain the very large number of clerics who played major roles in scientific discovery over the past 1000 or more years.

Scientists, as a matter of fact, have to make a few more assumptions before they can go about their business. 



Gerhard Adam's picture
"Scientists, as a matter of fact, have to make a few more assumptions before they can go about their business"

Religion creates a whole other order of existence and postulates the existence of, not only a divine being, but an entire social structure not of this world .... and scientists make MORE assumptions?

As I said, science asks questions where religion claims knowledge.  If you insist on using the word faith, feel free, but it changes nothing in terms of the fundamental difference between science and religion.  To attempt to equate the two as being synonymous requires mental gymnastics beyond my capability.

"Since when does the way most people interpret an argument become a flaw in the argument itself?  If most people think evolution is always gradual and slow, that does not invalidate the argument of evolution."

Sorry, but you can't piggy-back the two situations.  Evolution isn't dependent on people's opinions, since it is subject to scientific scrutiny and validation.  Since religion offers no such evidence, then it is completely dependent on people's opinions (unless you can point me to a theory of religion that has been tested and validated).

"...you try to negate the arguments for a creator by defining what you assume are the characteristics and mind of a creator"

This is another common tactic, where the religious believer never has to substantiate claims made and therefore they think themselves beyond questioning.  So, if I have mischaracterized a diety, please set the record straight.  I am more than willing to evaluate any theory you deem appropriate to advance. 

"For starters you commit the fallacy of assuming metaphors are literal. "

Sorry, since it's so difficult to tell what particular camp any view is in.  Since one view states that the bible is infallible and therefore the literal world of god, then it becomes difficult to phrase the argument if I don't know whether it should be taken literally or not.  As I said, feel free to present your own theory and evidence, but I suspect there won't be any .... and that is where the religious view differs from science. 

I don't care what people choose to believe, but it is too much of a stretch to elevate it to the level of science when there doesn't seem anyone willing to submit a theory, let alone evidence.

Wallace Kaufman's picture
I'm amused that again I find myself, an agnostic, perceived as a believer arguing his own cause.  Perhaps too persistently what I am responding to is flawed logic and argument, something common on both sides.  That said, I'll conclude my part with this post.

"As I said, science asks questions where religion claims knowledge.  If
you insist on using the word faith, feel free, but it changes nothing
in terms of the fundamental difference between science and religion. 
To attempt to equate the two as being synonymous requires mental
gymnastics beyond my capability."

Agreed, religion claims knowledge and science asks questions (though scientists often also claim knowledge, and rightly so).  Nevertheless, science proceeds on the bedrock faith in its method as a way of applying human intelligence.  Feel free to call it confidence.  One can argue that results prove the validity of that confidence.  One can say the same for religion.  And both have sent civilization down a number of dead ends and into a number of disasters. 

However, that said, it's also important to point out that science and religion strive for different results.  I've argued elsewhere that science creates a language and set of experiences that can be accessed by everyone, whereas religious experience is ultimately subjective.  Another way of saying religion and science apply their respective faiths toward different results.

I asked, "Since when does the way most people interpret an argument
become a flaw in the argument itself?  If most people think evolution
is always gradual and slow, that does not invalidate the argument of
evolution."

Your reply: Evolution isn't dependent on people's opinions, since it
is subject to scientific scrutiny and validation.  Since religion
offers no such evidence, then it is completely dependent on people's
opinions (unless you can point me to a theory of religion that has been
tested and validated).


You miss the point, or perhaps stated your earlier proposition poorly.  Whether it is how opinions interpret evolution or religion, the underlying argument's validity is not dependent on those opinions but on the strength of the logic and the proofs.  Argue that religion's proofs are lacking or inadequate, but to argue that any religious proposition is invalid because of how people interpret it, is to enshrine subjective perception as judge.

"if I have mischaracterized a diety, please set the record straight.  I
am more than willing to evaluate any theory you deem appropriate to
advance."


Again, I'm not arguing for any deity, only against the method you applied, of ascribing certain traits to deity, then knocking them down.  Unfortunately the variety of conceptions of deity are too various to do that and they include everything from Lovelock's Gaia to the many deities of pantheism.

"Since one view states that the bible is infallible and therefore the
literal world of god, then it becomes difficult to phrase the argument
if I don't know whether it should be taken literally or not."


Very few people believe the Bible is infallible.  (The Koran is something else and requires its readers to believe it was dictated by Allah rather than written by inspired scribes as in the case of the Bible.)  Even Christian fundamentalists can't reconcile contradictions in scripture and don't actually live a life that their scripture would dictate.  Characterizing religion and religious believers by attacking fundamentalists is a bit like criticizing civilization by describing society in a street gang.

And yes, the varying ways of responding to the metaphorical content, the narrative, also makes it difficult to phrase a counter argument in general.  I think it might suffice to say that science always has a problem dealing with one-of-a-kind phenomena.



Gerhard Adam's picture
"Argue that religion's proofs are lacking or inadequate, but to argue that any religious proposition is invalid because of how people interpret it, is to enshrine subjective perception as judge."

In a religious context that's exactly what it is.  Since there is no objective sense of "religion", then all religious experience and knowledge must, by definition, be subjective and therefore simply opinion.

"...only against the method you applied, of ascribing certain traits to deity, then knocking them down"

Once again, this was only done against the general concept of a diety which was all-knowing and all-powerful.  Without assessing any other characteristics, these are fair game in any discussion about religion.

"Characterizing religion and religious believers by attacking fundamentalists is a bit like criticizing civilization by describing society in a street gang."

If that were only true.  Whether it be because of the nature of the topics here, but if you want to characterize every creationist and young-earth supporter as fundamentalist that's fine.  But the point here is that it is the literal belief in the bible that gives rise to these viewpoints.  I don't have a quarrel with people's beliefs as long as they remain in that arena.  By extension, if someone wants to proclaim that their religious beliefs are provable as science, then, fundamentalist or not, their only source of proof is the bible, which they consider to be infallible.  While I recognize that many religious people do not hold that position, those that argue the science, invariably do.

Lest I misrepresent my own position, I don't have a problem with individual beliefs (religious or not), especially since most people (myself included) hold beliefs that wouldn't stand scientific scrutiny.  By the way, if only a few believe the bible is infallible, then this science must have a magnet that attracts them in droves, because that argument is spread through these discussions.

The advent of our creator and our creation lies in a realm beyond our mortal perceptions. We know we come from the elements created in the belly's of stars. We know stars were created from other stars and we can conceptualize and explain, and in some limited ways tests the creation process. We know that the material and rules by which life arises all came into being shortly was creation. Once this dusty material, these pieces of particles, and energetic forces arose, then the possibility, the probability, and the certainty of life was assured.

With the rules and the gameboard in place along with the amount of mass and energy as well and the time permitted life arose, evolved and thrived. Beyond the point of origin lies a place we can only imagine, but never actually see or even test. By our faiths the only possible way to actually see it we must cease to exist in this universe. That is the only thing for certain, that and taxes. So sayeth Ben.

Hank's picture
The advent of our creator and our creation lies in a realm beyond our mortal perceptions.

Sure, but the whole point of science is to explain the world according to natural laws.   Giving up is nihilistic.

Wallace Kaufman's picture
The two quotes below illustrate that what we seem to have at the root of the disagreement something like a discussion on the nature of energy being conducted by a bonfire and a pair of railroad tracks? 

>>The advent of our creator and our creation lies in a realm beyond our mortal perceptions.

Hank replied, "Sure, but the whole point of science is to explain the world according to natural laws. Giving up is nihilistic."

With the exception of fundamentalists, in the Judaeo-Christian tradition religion has nothing against science because its adherents are looking for a different kind of knowledge.  (Whether it exists or not is another question.)  They are usually quite happy, even eager to accept the ever widening wonder revealed by scientists and their methods of explaining nature. 

I suspect much common ground exists in the kind of observation made by Rodolfo Llinas when science writer Susan Allport and he were sitting on a lawn at Woods Hole looking at a marvelous seascape and she asked him if all his analysis hadn't made enjoying such a scene more difficult. 

"No.  It's part of me.  It's so beautiful.  It makes life so unbelievable.  Not because it's the study of
oneself--because it's clear that we didn't make it all, that the world is not just a product of our imaginations.  There really is something out there. But because what is really amazing is that one is: that the brain can do this and do it so well that we are convinced that we perceive and what is out there are one and the same thing.  And the question is how. Other questions are interesting, but they are trivial."  Rodolpho Llinas, microbiologist, Allport, Exploring the Black Box, p 62.



Hank's picture
Hi Wallace (and welcome to the site!),

You make a fine point.   There isn't much beauty in life if we just seek to break it down empirically and I don't think most of us (you being one of us now also) here do, because there's no point in doing this kind of science outreach if that were so - most people have made up their minds already about the place of science in the world.   But in any heirarchy of needs, in order to get to the top the lower level ones must first be satisfied.

I am fine with a religious origin of the life, the universe and everything - I just want something a little less subjective taught in science classes.

I have to disagree with you on your first point, Hank. I believe it was Feynman who said, in response to a friend's accusation on this topic, "flowers are MORE beautiful because I know the inner processes." Thinking about the inner workings of a cell and the mental leaps scientists throughout the years to discover these things has moved me to tears many more times than just seeing a simple flower. Certainly these processes have moved me much more than the violent stories of some book written thousands of years ago. ;-)

But for your second point, I think that's the real issue. Religion is religion and science is science. If I were asked to teach ID in my science class as a possible origin of life, I would need to look up and teach every possible creation myth, because they would all be equally plausible. But none of them are scientific, and as such, none belong in a science class.

I'm a third-year environmental science student, so I'm still very-much learning, so be gentle if I present a question that may dumbly miss a point:

While taking a break, drinking from the water fountain, I observed the droplets of water and concluded how they wouldn't be sterile because of absorbing bacteria from the fountain tray and other strangers' spit from before. And it astounds me how a precious resource like water can be so essential yet so easily detrimental to your health by such small "vulnerabilities." Before and now creating mass health concerns with the spread of disease and on the other side, depleting sources of drinkable or even potable water.

What I wanted to say was what would be the odds that the element of water would become the "Goldie-Locks" of molecules (much like nucleic acids to encoding genetics) to yield such various environments and then the vehicle to sustaining so many different types of life. I mean, we have our "CHONP" (all elements of which are phenomenally significant) that are most common in living organisms, and only two of these make up water. In Bio 101, you learn of the remarkable significance of water, where the weak-hydrogen bonds having a lot to do with it as well as weak Van Der Waals forces. Ice floats, high and low vapor and solidifying temperatures, high surface tension, "the universal solvent," miscible, low electrical conductivity and so on. Even how the 104 degree angle has chemical significance.

So, what are the chances, in a chemical perspective, of this phenomenal occurrence? Or is it simply a cause and effect, which isn't the evolution of life, chemically that is?

It seems to me organic compounds should be more of an astounding progression of cause and effect in the history of the universe, which I believe is what this article is stating, whereas the chemicals just happen, most of them at the big bang (even as hard to imagine as that may be for a still-learning chemistry or physics student).

Okay, so maybe I just answered my own question...but does someone see my point?

-cheers

Dave Deamer's picture
Sure, I see your point, and I have a quote for you:
"Hydrogen is a colorless, odorless gas which, when given enough time, turns into people."

In other words, "the chemicals just happen" as you noted (but only hydrogen and a little helium in the Big Bang) and after that comes a huge load of cause and effect. That's what science tries to sort out, the causes and effects occurring in the physical universe that ultimately lead to the origin of life, and then you and me.


I'm not sure the word "ultimately" is needed in there. The origin of life is irrelevant, and so are you and me, except that we wouldn't be having the conversation without them. But the universe doesn't need life, or humans, to exist, since it apparently existed for eons before life came along and developed what we call consciousness and eventually the scientific method to sort things out and figure out that once upon a time there was a big bang and a lot of hydrogen began doing what it does over time and space. "Ultimately" this universe might come to an end, with or without life or humans present.

Dave, not to put too fine a point on it, but surely if we're talking about origin of life we have to start with chemicals.

Starting with RNA strands 300 nucleotides long is like saying "we can form an automobile engine out of sand, we'll just start with pistons, conrods, block and head already formed."

What are the odds against a specific organisation of chemicals into 300 nucleotide strands?

Above claims have mischaracterised the improbability argument when claiming that the odds against a specific genetic arrangement in an individual is astronomical therefore a certain person cannot exist.

Picture it like taking a truly random deck of cards and dealing a 5 card hand. That hand was random and within the limits of a 52 card deck unique. To replicate that hand on a random deal would be highly improbable, however if all you want is a hand of cards (with no particular order) then the probability is 1 that you will receive some combination of cards. If you want a specific combination like a royal flush then the odds drop considerably (in the case of the royal flush 649739 : 1) and if two royal flushes were drawn in the same game people would generally conclude that someone stacked the deck. The unique arrangement of the individual human is a result of the hand they're dealt out of the human gene pool, but the differences between us amount to less than a tenth of a percent of the total genome anyway.

The configuration of chemicals necessary for human life exist. However the question that design advocates ask is "what are the odds of achieving that combination on a single draw?" (You can even invoke multiple draws if you like, you only have about 4.5 billion years to play in) Unlike the aforementioned card game not any particular arrangement of chemicals will do. The human genome has in the region of 3 billion base pairs, even if we assume that perhaps 90% of it could be in any arrangement (a generous enough concession I think) that's still 300 million base pairs that have to have a specific arrangement in order for human life to exist.

Two royal flushes in the same game are grounds to suspect cheating. At what point is it reasonable to consider that human life is evidence of "cheating" by an intelligent agent?

If I understand your argument, Jason, you are saying that your existence is highly improbable, therefore you were created by an intelligent agent. But certainly the universe was devoid of human intelligence for billions of years, so the creation of the universe did not require an intelligent agent, if I understand your logic. But human life. you think, could not be the result of random chance and repetition as described in the original article. So I guess the question is: can the results be replicated? That's what the scientific method is all about.

Gerhard Adam's picture
"However the question that design advocates ask is "what are the odds of achieving that combination on a single draw?" (You can even invoke multiple draws if you like, you only have about 4.5 billion years to play in) ..."

... and therein is the mistake.  Why is it always assumed that the creation of humans was a singular event?  The odds of producing a human being with the initial chemical interactions would obviously be highly improbable and never happened.  The creation of the first step is something else entirely.

Once a base process is established then it can continue to evolve and become more complex.  Therefore the steps that lead to a human being are not simply probabilistic combinations of chemicals, but refinements of processes that already had millions and billions of years of success.

That article was a pretty interesting read. I would love for a complete detail of the experiment, since Dave's article is pretty slim on some details. I'll give an example:

''This process could fish out any RNA molecules that happened to have even a weak ability to catalyze the reaction. They then amplified those molecules and put them back in for a second round, repeating the process for 10 rounds.''

I understand this phrase meaning that the scientists took the RNA strands that had interacted, amplified them and then went on to the second round. I may not be understanding it clearly, hence why more details would have been fun.

(BTW, my first language is french, so I may not understand correctly every word in its scientific sense, such as ''amplified'')

But according to my understanding of that phrase, doesn't this leave an important part of the issue to the side ? I'm talking about the replication(amplified?) of the RNA strand, which would require proteins. I know that Dyson's position has some sort of evolution-natural selection without auto-replication, but eventually even in his form of primordial soup, replication most arise.

Replication is, in my opinion, the very heart of the origin of life debate, since it is at that point only that proteins enter the game (you don't necessarily need proteins before, even if it would be better). The lowest estimate I've seen of the number f proteins for minimal auto-replicating life is 387 proteins. Which is quite a lot. (simply as an example: if you consider 20 amino acids/protein, the statistical chance is on in 10e5035)

At this point, time always seems to be the ''hero of the plot''. I think there is no better quote to represent this then the one from George Wald: “…Time is the hero of the plot…what we regard as impossible on the basis of human experience is meaningless here. Given so much time, the impossible becomes possible.”

It seems ot would be easy to see all the billions of years you have at your disposal and conclude that your bond to get it at some point. But I have always seen this as pretty weak and here is why:

10e80 atoms in the universe
10e12 atomic interactions per second
10e18 seconds since the classic view of the Big Bang (which I am not a proponent of, see Carmeli cosmology)

This only gives a number of 10e110 possible interaction since the beginning of the universe. But then again, it is way, way smaller then any statistical calculations of the happening of the 387 proteins.

My point is, if it is the scientists who did the replications of the molecules for the other rounds, then this problem (which is pretty much the biggest, most major problem in any origin of life hypothesis) isn't really solved, even if the results of the study are really interesting

I'm amazed at the simplistic discussion occurring on this board. The fact is that recent advances in understanding epigenetics and chromosomal topography add layers of staggering information to our genetic code. One would think that life is a simple string of beads after reading the forum posts.

Do any of you think you are smarter than Crick (DNA co-discoverer; Nobel prize winner)? He believed DNA was so complex (based on his LIMITED knowledge at the time) that aliens sent life here. You can read about this on NIH.gov site (http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/SC/Views/Exhibit/narrative/neurobiology.html).

He had such a simple-minded faith. Incredible.

Here are the facts:

1. FACT #1: The National Science Foundation declared last year that how life originated is one of the Top 10 unanswered questions in science. "Unanswered" means that you are operating on faith like Crick.

2. FACT #2: No indisputable process has been shown to change a fish into a philosopher. We are just now starting to understand how epigenetics and chromosomal topography add information (remember we were told we are only 1% different than monkeys, then suddenly 6%, and now really different since "junk DNA" isn't actually junk plus epigenetics and chromosomal topography contribute to our differences). The textbook companies love rewriting the books every year to make money off of you.

3. FACT #3: Scientists have been working on origin of life experiments for nearly 500 years. No answer yet.

Does anyone dispute these facts?

Please be intellectually honest. Declare yourselves agnostics operating on faith instead of pretending to have answers. Declaring that something WILL be proven true in the future is FAITH.

Rob Miller, MD

Re: Fact #1: No scientist says there is an absolute answer to any question. To do so would result in mental rigidity, which is conducive to scientific thought. However, faith means believe in something where there is no evidence. There is evidence for evolution, and therefore the acceptance of this theory does not rely on faith, anymore than predicting the sun will rise tomorrow relies on faith, and that the sun rose 2,000 years ago.

Re: Fact #2: Why on earth would you want to make a fish into a philosopher? In terms of what is "junk" and what is not "junk" DNA, it is really the public media that coined the phrase "junk DNA". Scientists at the time simply said there was no known function. As more research has been done, what was unknown, or UNANSWERED, has become answered. And scientists typically don't buy textbooks once they're out of college ;-)

Re. Fact #3: Which origin of life experiments are you talking about? Are you talking about Newcombe's experiment that showed that bacteria are capable of producing a random mutation that provides a selective advantage? Or are you talking about the experiments that show lipids can form the makings of the cell membrane spontaneously? The experiments that showed inorganic material can be made into organic compounds with electrical charge (similar to lightning)? Or the experiment here, showing RNA molecules can become more and more specialized when subjected to selective pressure? Those experiments have provided us answers to the questions that were being asked. Which experiments, pray tell, are YOU referring to?

So yes, I do dispute these "facts".

Here is a fact for you,
I am TERRIFIED that you are a doctor.

I am TERRIFIED that you possess such astronomical arrogance. It's almost as perplexing as the origins of the universe.

You seem to be implying that you have the answers to questions that scientists and philosophers have been pondering since the beginning of mankind. Unfortunately, you haven't really answered them; you just changed the subject. Evolution does not explain why life originated. A fish turning into a philosopher is significant because it refers to the relation between humans, fish, and all other living creatures to a common ancestor, and so far scientists have not been able to discover proof of a common ancestor. Unless you were there to witness the dawn of time, I doubt you know how the universe originated, especially since even the most brilliant scientists haven't been able to figure it out so far. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hank's picture
I doubt you know how the universe originated, especially since even the most brilliant scientists haven't been able to figure it out so far.

Explaining how things happened (and why) - or at least trying - are what separate us from the animals.   There was no proof germs caused disease 200 years ago but doctors wash up before surgery now.  Every year we achieve new insights that are part of a bigger picture; because scientists didn't know something in centuries past doesn't mean they shouldn't try. 

P.S.  I am not sure what you mean by 'common ancestor' in the context you use it.   Mammals all have hair and milk - that means they had a common ancestor.

rholley's picture
... but doctors wash up before surgery now.


Which gives me an opportunity to draw the attention of you all to this article:

When Childbirth Was Natural, and Deadly


I do really recommend reading this; I won't give any hints, though, because they would act as 'spoilers'.


I completely agree that there's nothing wrong with trying to obtain new knowledge and trying to figure out how the universe began. I'm not sure that science can answer why, but it can certainly answer how. I was just supporting Rob Miller's post about how science has not been able to answer questions about the origin of life so far.

What I meant by common ancestor was the theory that all animals, including humans, birds, fish, etc. originated from the same organism, or a universal common ancestor.

Hank's picture
What I meant by common ancestor was the theory that all animals, including humans, birds, fish, etc. originated from the same organism, or a universal common ancestor.

Well, they do.   That's not even an issue.    However, people who need to have a religious basis for all things tend to go off the rails on that fact and there's no reason.     If your mother makes you a birthday cake one day and brownies the next, those two delicious foods have common ancestors in flour and water, etc.  - they are modified and different from each other but have common descent.   The knowledge of their common descent from similar materials does not invalidate the existence ofyour mother.

Gerhard Adam's picture
You're absolutely correct and I think it points out the reason why creationism will always be in conflict.  By acknowledging that there is a common ancestor then it precludes a special act of creation for humans and that invariably becomes the sticking point.

It has little to do with whether there is a God, but rather whether humans are "special".

I see what you mean by the cake and brownies having "common ancestors," but I don't really understand how it relates to the existence of my mother. So I don't quite see what you're getting at with the analogy, but the main point I was trying to make is that science still knows very little about the origin of life, so no one can really claim to know why or how life originated; all we can do at this point is speculate. In any case, it's not humans alone that are "special"; it's life itself that's special because it occurs so rarely in the universe.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I think Hank meant that regardless of the ancestry of the brownies, it didn't impact the fact that your mother was real.  Same thing in biology.  Regardless of whether we have a common ancestor or not, it doesn't affect whether you believe God created the universe.

We don't actually know whether life is special or whether it is something that is inevitable given a certain set of initial conditions.  That is definitely speculation since we have barely explored any of the universe, and know virtually nothing about the conditions that may exist on millions of other worlds.

It's also true that science doesn't know specifically how life originated, but there is more evidence mounting all the time about some of the chemical requirements that are necessary.  Therefore if those chemical interactions are inevitable (given the right conditions), then any planet meeting those conditions would clearly be a candidate to have life on it.

The idea of faith originates with the Bible. There faith is defined in Hebrews chapter 11 as "the assured expectations of thing of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." Sounds like science to me.

jtwitten's picture
Are you arguing that the concept of "faith" did not exist until ~100 CE?

The meaning of the quoted passage (Hebrews 11:1) is made more clear using the New International Version translation (which you may or may not accept, but is used here for clarity, for which the King James version is not noted):
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

To paraphrase: faith is accepting without evidence.

This sounds like "science" in the same way that a kazoo sounds like a grand piano.

Gerhard Adam's picture
This sounds like "science" in the same way that a kazoo sounds like a grand piano.


I don't know when I've ever heard you wax so eloquently ....

logicman's picture
I don't know when I've ever heard you wax so eloquently ....

Ditto.

jtwitten's picture
Given my usual eloquence, I'll take that as a great compliment.

rholley's picture
And that sounds like scoffing.

jtwitten's picture
A statement that ridiculously inaccurate requires a ridiculous response.

logicman's picture
And that sounds like scoffing.


A statement that ridiculously inaccurate requires a ridiculous response.


What sounds like scoffing, the kazoo or the piano?

Was that ridiculous enough, Josh?

jtwitten's picture
If I am the one playing the kazoo or the piano, both may sound like scoffing.  They certainly don't sound like music, or science.

It's hardly ridiculous quoting from a different translation of the Bible then what you have. What is ridiculous is assuming that your translation is the most accurate thereby negating the one I was using. Also, its obvious that faith was around before 100 C.E.(To be more accurate the Paul finished writing Hebrews by 61C.E) But it's also obvious that what some may think of the definition of faith is quite different then what is in the Bible. A little less arrogance will actually leave you open for a true discussion of the matter.

jtwitten's picture
I can only respond to what you say, not what you mean:
The idea of faith originates with the Bible. There faith is defined in Hebrews chapter 11

Do you believe that the concept of faith did not exist prior to the writing of biblical stories?

My use of a different translation was to provide simplified language with English usage more familiar to the modern reader, relative to the King James's version.  I did not say either translation is more accurate.  In fact, my implication was that both translations carry the exact same meaning, which does not sound anything at all like science.

While the definition of "science" is very topical to the discussion of Dave's article, I do not think a discussion of the definition of "faith" would be appropriate.  But, I am perfectly amenable to opening a "Definition of Faith" thread on my own blog.

I'm amazed at the simplistic discussion occurring on this board. The fact is that recent advances in understanding epigenetics and chromosomal topography add layers of staggering information to our genetic code. One would think that life is a simple string of beads after reading the forum posts.

Do any of you think you are smarter than Crick (DNA co-discoverer; Nobel prize winner)? He believed DNA was so complex (based on his LIMITED knowledge at the time) that aliens sent life here. You can read about this on NIH.gov site (http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/SC/Views/Exhibit/narrative/neurobiology.html).

He had such a simple-minded faith. Incredible.

Here are the facts:

1. FACT #1: The National Science Foundation declared last year that how life originated is one of the Top 10 unanswered questions in science. "Unanswered" means that you are operating on faith like Crick.

2. FACT #2: No indisputable process has been shown to change a fish into a philosopher. We are just now starting to understand how epigenetics and chromosomal topography add information (remember we were told we are only 1% different than monkeys, then suddenly 6%, and now really different since "junk DNA" isn't actually junk plus epigenetics and chromosomal topography contribute to our differences). The textbook companies love rewriting the books every year to make money off of you.

3. FACT #3: Scientists have been working on origin of life experiments for nearly 500 years. No answer yet.

Does anyone dispute these facts?

Please be intellectually honest. Declare yourselves agnostics operating on faith instead of pretending to have answers. Declaring that something WILL be proven true in the future is FAITH.

Rob Miller, MD

I am a Land Surveyor and feel that I hardly have the gray matter to comment, however, since we are talking about probability, (I deal with this subject on a daily basis with measurements and angles) in practice I know some things. Since there is nothing in the known universe to compare the existence of Earth to (a similar planet) how can one begin to calculate what the chances of life are? You first need a habitat that supports live, correct? If you could, calculate the probability of the Earth existing with the correct atmosphere, temperature ranges, tilt of axis and rotational speed to the sun, and gravity however, the odds should increase by the second. Because every second we find new stars, planets that would form the basis of the analysis. It goes without saying that we can only explore the distance that our instruments can reach. Therefore we can only theorize how many stars, planets etc. exist, no human could possibly know exactly how many stars exist. Therefore, the odds of the existence of life must be coupled with the odds of a habitat also existing to support life. The two systems of numbers must produce infinite results.

Since everyone has an opinion, mine is this. First my experience is that persons who choose to believe that there is no God do so because they have not made an honest effort to read, meditate and search through the bible in its entirety and objectively. This coupled with a failure to examine nature to see how things perfectly exist for us and are here really for our enjoyment. Rather, many scientists sit as academic judges and disparage those simple minded people like me who choose a belief system that does require the establishment of every fact and therefore is unscientific and unacceptable. The bible is not, and never was intended to be a science book. From my study of the scriptures and science I find that they agree in total and have not found a single instance where they disagree. Conversely, I have found that many men of science neglect the second step of the scientific method, observation and research off all existing resources (including the bible) dismissing the scriptures as a fairytale on the way to forming a conclusion that there is no God. Instead, intellectual pride in the theories and research men produce has blinded many to an alternative explanation that is as reasonable as their unproven theory is. If only persons would honestly consider all the alternatives to their theories. Has science explained why water and not some other solvent (that is also more probable)? Why the variety of fruit or veggies? O, let's not forget the animal kingdom and their chance of existence and the variety we see there. O yes, they can be explained away as the product of a chance explosion and evolution, singularly; collectively existing at the same point in time, they can not, and that must annoy the scientific mind to no end.

Rob makes a good point.

About some other interesing stuff in the comments:

Totally irrelevant, but it wasn't a little helium that would have been produced in the big bang, but actually 25% of the total weight of the mass in the universe.

Also, I recognized that people have the wrong impression of the word faith. If you are to argue against the judeo-christian religion, you have to at least have the right understanding of this very important concept. The Greek word for faith is Pistis (synonyms 'truth' and 'persuasion') is derived from a primary root pietho meaning 'to convince by argument'. So the faith that the bible talks about is (and asks there followers to have) is never a blind faith, since it must have a basis on arugments-facts. It ouwld be the same word that would be used if I had faith that my wife loved me. It would not be blind faith, it would be faith based on facts, observations, etc.

So if today many people see faith as blind, it is not because of any sort of teaching of the bible, but rather on cultural/ideological/etc. influences.

Also about the ''where did the water come from? question, it is a very, very interesting subject. The bible says that everything was originally made out of water (somewhere in the book of peter). And so water was made essentially before everything else, and then the everything else was made by this water (don,t search any science behind this, I concede it is supernatural). However, what is interesting about this particular fact is that Russell Humphreys based his paleomagnetic-origin theory on this very aspect of creation in 1984, in which he made predictions about the magnetic field of four planets. His predictions were 100 000 times bigger then the evolutionary predictions made. In 1986 and 1989, the two competing theories were put to the test when the NASA probes collected data on these magnetic fields. I turned out that the results were exactly in the same magnitude as Humphreys predictions, and so 100 000 times bigger then the expectade results from the dynamo theory.

I always liked this example because it is a clear-cut example of a creationist theory that was falsifiable, that made predictions before-hand, and turned out to be accurate.

One addition to my earlier post:

4. FACT #4: Science can be used to detect design.

The old semantical ruse that creation/ID research isn't "science" is simply low IQ banter in my opinion. Pattern recognition is critical to science. What isn't scientific about detecting patterns and then studying the patterns to determine if chance produced the pattern? I'm totally amused by scientists who let their existing beliefs in a theory determine the facts (instead of letting the facts determine the theory).

Hank's picture
Hi Rob,

ID research is not science because they do no actual research.   They raise and spend millions of dollars and instead use it to foment doubt about science.   If they actually supported studies, including the kinds of information theory you're talking about, that would be different.    Simply looking for holes in biology - and in every science there are holes - does not mean they are doing science, it means they are doing propaganda.

ID do research, they just can't conclude their paper by saying: Thus, this would point towards an intelligent designer. Because it won't pass peer-review. I don't know if you suscribe to any scientific journal, but if you pay attention you can sometimes recognize an article written by someone who is in favor of intelligent design, but it will never (or very, very rarely) be explicit.

Obviously, if you don't pay attention, you get the impression that they don,t do research or even worse, don't even contribute to the scientific community, which is not true.

The problem with the intelligent design movement, is that they accept the possibility that reality is not only composed of matter and energy (naturalism). And I fail to see what is wrong with making people doubt science, because they never question the philosophical concept of science, but only the mainstream-politically correct science.

I would aknowledge that if they criticisez the concept of science, then this would be harmful. But this is not the case, and so I often ask myself why there is such an opposition to criticism of the main paradigms of science. The scientific establishment has become more and more dogmatic over the years, and this is not only true in the origin of life debate, or even creation/evolution debate.

There is a strong movement of desire to change the big bang cosmology, but I doubt you will have heard of it even if there are over 1000 cosmologist and physician to have joined this movement, simply because the establishment and mainstream media as well have become dogmatic on the main paradigms.

i want to precise that this is in NO way a conspiracy-type thing. It is just normal human psychological behavior of which the scientific community has to stop be lazy and realize the dogmatism it is now into in some of these issues.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Sorry, but this is nonsense.  In truth, if there was ANY merit to alternative interpretations of biology (or any other science), then let the evidence speak.  Your assertion that it wouldn't pass peer review would only be true, if based on a singular experiment someone concluded that it must be ID.

It's simple enough.  If biology and evolution are wrong, then point to the proper direction.  Indicate what ID research has discovered (not asserted) and show the evidence. 

The reason why creationism isn't science, is because there is no research.  Criticism of existing research is not new research.  Criticism of science is not new science.  Anyone can and should have a healthy skepticism of claims made, but if you want to play in the game, you have to come up with ideas of your own that advance knowledge.  Simply asserting that design must be intelligent is simply a waste of time.

As for Crick's claim that DNA is so complex that life must've been introduced by aliens, isn't just silly, it's downright stupid.  Which just demonstrates that even gaining the Nobel prize doesn't make one excempt from dumb explanations. 

Aren't you mixing two things ? We are talking about Intelligent design and you say ''It's simple enough. If biology and evolution are wrong, then point to the proper direction. Indicate what ID research has discovered (not asserted) and show the evidence. '' which is clearly an argument that is only useable against creationism, not intelligent design (who doesn't go against evolution, just abiogenesis)

Funny how Crick' claim is downright stupid, when it was reiterated as a possibility by Dr. Dawkins ... and that the SETI program originates from this idea that advanced alien civilisation coud exist and have developped to the point they could communicate with us ...

By the way, the error in your argument is that creationism doesn't solely criticise research (although they do, such as every scientist does) but they criticize a theory. Criticism of a theory is science, since it leads ultimately to new theories. Pasteur criticised the theory of abiogenesis in his research. Lyell criticised the theory of catastrophism, Copernic criticised the theory of geocentricism (which originated from Aristotle, not christianity). All eventualy led to new scientific theories, all started as a criticism of an existing theory

Criticism of a research is not new research, but criticism of an existing theory leads to new theories.

Gerhard Adam's picture

Criticism isn't science.  I have no idea why you would think that SETI has anything to do with "seeding" the earth as the origin of life.

I fail to see the distinction between Intelligent Design and creationism.  Both are full of difficulties that are conveniently ignored, by simply asserting that life is too complicated to have originated by itself, therefore let's introduce a hundred times more complexity and call it good.  It's gibberish.


You cannot answer complexity by introducing greater complexity.



I recognized it seemed as I was saying the SETI was supporting directed panspermia, but this is not what intended (as I've said, I'm french so this happens often when I discuss in english) I just wanted to say that the scientific basis for the research of making contact with extra-terrestial intelligence pretty much started off with Crick's statement that he believed such life existed, and that it seeded life on earth. But of course, SETI won't ever proove directed panspermia or anything

I don't understand though how you can't see a difference between the ID movement and creationism. Creationism is a christian thing, presupposing that the bible is true etc.

ID is simply recognizing the pattern of information in the DNA-nature, etc. Also some of its proponents do in fact get involved in the evolution debate, you can easily be an ID and an evolutionist (since evolution by natural selection starts of after life already existed).

Big differences between the two, and although they join up in certain places (information theory, origin of life) they are complete opposite in others, where ID joins up with evolution etc.

PS if you're going to assert that ''criticism isn't science'', you will have to back it up a little bit. I agreed with you that criticism of a scientific paper will not result in new science. But I think it is pretty evident (by what i said earlier) that criticism of existing theories has been the motor for the creation of new theories in the past ... (if you disagree, I would suggest reading some philosophers of science such as Karl Popper on this, because pretty much everyone of them agree on this) Even my astrophysic professor said this multiple times about cosmology theories (he is a complete atheist-bigbanger etc.)

FACT #5: Scientists, including Darwin, believed for hundreds of years that life could spontaneously generate. They were wrong. For example, Darwin believed that a pile of rotting hay produced mice; a rotting log produced an alligator; etc. (see Oparin's The Origin of Life for an excellent review of this non-sense). Today's "scientists" posting on this board claim absolute proof when they have only faith that their assertions will be proven true based on a few simple chemical experiments. A pile of RNA does not equal a nano-machine single cell. Period.

FACT #6: Ignorance is bliss. For example, one commenter above ("K") is still propping up Miller's amino acid concoction experiment without knowledge of the chirality problem. Wow. It is staggering how today's group is simply brain-washed like Darwin's colleagues were into believing that life just easily popped into existence. http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v18/i2/abiogenesis.asp

FACT #7: "K" avoided the NSF statement. "K" is confusing bacterial adaptation with a bacteria changing into a fish (i.e. macroevolution - lots of DNA information would have to be added to change into a fish). "K" is dodging the fact that "scientists" declared over and over that our DNA was only 1% different than chimps, thus implying that the rest of the DNA/epigenetics/chromosomal topography weren't factors. Smart.

FACT #8: We are spending $100 million/year with SETI listening for aliens to contact us from space. Crick's belief continues. This money should be spent on feeding hungry children and cancer/HIV/heart disease research. Carl Sagan testified before Congress that we would soon find "100,000's" of civilizations (that was over 30 years ago). I agree with Gerhard..."downright stupid." But, these are our leading "scientists" promoting this philosophy based on their evolutionary faith.

FACT #9: No one has explained how all the information stored in DNA originated. I recommend a book from the inventor of the gene gun (a Cornell professor) titled Gene Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome (available at Amazon). He shows how mutations are degrading the genome, not improving it.

FACT #10: There are over 5,000 known human diseases caused by a single base pair mutation (e.g. cystic fibrosis). Evolutionists would have us believe that these are genes struggling to become perfect through mutation and natural selection. Creationists would say these are once perfect genes that have recently become mutated. What makes the most sense to you?

FACT #11: Darwin not only believed in spontaneous generation (which Pasteur disproved), but he also believed in magic "gemmules" that passed behavioral traits on to the offspring. For example, if a giraffe stretched his neck to get higher leaves, the magic gemmules traveled through the blood to the germ cells and would be passed on to offspring (with the belief that physically stretching in the parent caused the kid to have a longer neck). Wrong. Silly.

FACT #12: Since Darwin believed in spontaneous generation (e.g. mice popping out of rotting hay) and magic gemmules that easily passed on traits, it is easy to see how he believed macroevolution occurred over time. The miracles were already done! Evolving was the easy part.

FACT #13: Ota Benga is the name of a Pygmy that was brought to America and exhibited in the New York zoo in the early 1900's (you can Yahoo or Google his story). "Scientists" at the time were teaching all of us that Negros descended from Apes; Asians descended from Orangutans; and, Whites from Chimpanzees. Wow. Another great example of "smart" evolutionary thinking.

FACT #14: Oparin, in The Origin of Life, pointed out that some plants make hemoglobin in their root nodules, but the hemoglobin had no use in plants. He coddled this as proof that hemoglobin easily appeared (I guess he thought that plants were trying do develop a blood supply? lol). Well, today we know that the hemoglobin in plant root nodules plays a specific role to balance oxygen supply related to the nitrogen fixing bacteria. Oparin's "blind faith" led him to the wrong conclusion. Again.

Hank Campbell (commenter above) proves my point that many of today's scientists, just like in Darwin's time, are allowing their a priori belief to determine the facts, instead of letting the facts determine the theory. There is an absolute blindness in today's academia to even consider alternative explanations over fear of losing their jobs...no backbone or dignity to stand up as men of character or principle.

Instead of using science to try to detect the purpose of the hemoglobin in root nodules, Oparin let his beliefs interpret the facts. He declared no purpose/no design instead of using science to take a fresh look at it. This pattern is being repeated today by blind faith followers of Neo-Darwinism.

Gerhard Adam's picture

I think you're placing too much emphasis on the character and behavior of individual scientists.  The "power" of scientific query is that it must pass peer review and be accepted by a larger number of individuals than just one.  While the argument has been made that this may be too conservative an approach and often stifles innovation, it also ensures that the scientific community isn't constantly following the latest fad or radically altering principles only to regret it later.

There is absolutely no question that mistakes have been made and will continue to be made.  There is also no question that many of the scientific theories may be improperly interpreted (even though the theory itself is sound).  There is also no question that individual scientists will always be shaped by their own worldviews and may invoke interpretations that aren't supported by the data.


Having said all of that, the point remains that the creationist/ID position does nothing to advance the cause of exploring theories or developing ideas, but instead is simply pursuing an agenda of attempting to color evidence in favor of a particular objective. 


As evidenced by physics, regardless of whether someone likes a theory or not, the data will inevitably lead to conclusions that must be confronted.  If the creationist/ID perspective is legitimate, then the data must inevitably lead there, but it doesn't.  Instead, the creationist/ID viewpoint is simply offering criticisms and not evidence, so there are no alternate theories.  There are no alternative explanations.  There is only an agenda which says ... "Stop looking because we already know the answer".


If creationism/ID were correct, it wouldn't alter a thing, since it would then raise the question of pushing the first cause farther back.  Where did the creating entity (or designer) come from and what rules/laws govern their/its behavior?  From a scientific perspective, it would be completely wrong to suggest that such questions are undeserving of answers.



I agree with Gerhard that scientists interpret data because of their worldview. If only the others posting on this board could recognize this, we could then have an intellectually honest debate. Most of the scientists I know have an existing belief/blind faith in evolution so strong (macroevolution i.e. a bacteria changing into a fish) that it prevents him/her from even considering alternatives. It is an intellectually dishonest position.

Assertions that an object can't be studied to ascertain design are simply false. We find items constantly (e.g. archeology) that we study to ascertain if they were created by an earlier civilization or random chance. It isn't fair or correct to rule out studying an organism for design, simply because others believe no design is possible.

The same scientists trying to stop people from studying "design" also object to study of a worldwide flood. What is unscientific about trying to detect evidence of a worldwide flood? What we recently learned from Mount St. Helen's caused the textbooks to be rewritten (read "Footprints in the Ash" from Amazon.com) and even plaques at Yellowstone to be changed. The fact is that we find billions of dead things buried in sediment around the world. This is exactly what we would expect to find with a global flood. Many uniformitarians are now calling themselves "neo-catastrophists". Hmmmm.

Establishing truth on number of peers accepting "evidence" is also dangerous (e.g. Nazis' view that lower "races" should be purged) when the peers are reviewing with an existing belief.

FACT: Watson (the other DNA co-discover/Nobel winner) was recently fired from his job because he stated that populations geographically separated had no reason to evolve at the same rate (thus, this was Africa's problem). Based on theory, his statement is correct! Evolutionists can't disagree. Of course, he had to be fired for political reasons. Creationists on the other hand believe that "races" are only different people groups, and that we descended from "one blood" recently (interestingly, secular science recently proposed that we all descended from an "Eve" 6,000 to 200,000 years ago).

The fact is that the scientific community has radically changed and altered its principles frequently over the last 150 years. The fact is that a long string of scientific fraud, ignorance, errors, change of positions, alien claims, etc. Individuals have done this and individuals have established the current arguments. Those same individuals want us to now take their word for the "Gospel Truth" and blindly follow their lead (into the next round of errors and mistakes).

I encourage everyone to get off the semantical merry-go-round trying to define and redefine "science", "design", etc. Any object can be studied to detect likelihood of design. Even SETI (which is a totally incompetent waste of money) is trying to detect an alien message with a design. Humans have the intellectual capacity to recognize patterns that were created. To argue that design detection is non-scientific is absolutely nonsensical. Engineering can be detected.

FACT #15: Billions of fossil links would need to be discovered to account for all the current living organisms. Some scientists are struggling to argue that a single fish shows evidence of a jawbone breaking away to form the inner ear (just the bone - of course, they are neglecting the millions of nerves and highly sophisticated connections that would be required to process and understand the information). Gould, a prominent evolutionist, decided that since so many transitional fossils were missing that he would explain it away with "punctuated equilibrium" (essentially that evolution occurred in fast bursts, thus leaving no fossils behind). Smart! This reminds me of the origin of life scientist that wanted SETI discontinued because life could only exist in other water covered planets, and we need to spend the money on sending deep space satellites to these planets. Since they are water covered, fire can not be made. Metals can't be made without fire. Communication equipment can't be made without metals. This is where we will find the intelligent life Carl Sagan insisted we would find before Congress! '

Let's keep spending tax payer dollars on these nuts while children starve and women die of breast cancer. Thank you all for supporting the above nonsense with your blind faith.

Gerhard Adam's picture
"It isn't fair or correct to rule out studying an organism for design, simply because others believe no design is possible."

That's putting the cart before the horse.  That's the problem I have when people want to propose a design and then seek out the evidence to support it. 

"What is unscientific about trying to detect evidence of a worldwide flood?"

There isn't enough water, nor are there any places for it to go.

"The fact is that we find billions of dead things buried in sediment around the world. This is exactly what we would expect to find with a global flood."

Not true at all.  If there were significant clusters of modern species that were grouped together with the appearance that they were trying to escape flood waters, then perhaps you'd have a point.  In addition, the geological changes that occur normally are in direct opposition to what you're proposing so there would need to be substantial evidence of what your suggesting before you can overturn all of paleontology.

"We find items constantly (e.g. archeology) that we study to ascertain if they were created by an earlier civilization or random chance."

There is a vast difference between evaluating something that is known to be a human creation versus something that has no evidence of design.  People can be easily mislead in assuming design where none exists, such as in the internet.  That is a perfect example of natural evolution producing something far greater than any designer could have established.

"interestingly, secular science recently proposed that we all descended from an "Eve" 6,000 to 200,000 years ago)."

Sorry, don't know where you got those numbers but I can tell you without even examining them that they are completely bogus.  With a spread of 33 times, they aren't even in the ballpark statistically.  Reporting that kind of variation is just plain fantasy.

"Billions of fossil links would need to be discovered to account for all the current living organisms."

Not true, since the vast majority of biological processes are conserved, it would be wrong and misleading to suggest that each species needed to have a unique developmental path.  Frankly, I'm surprised that you don't understand the development of nerves and blood vessels better since these are highly conserved processes that occur without an "explicit" roadmap by the genes.  As a doctor you should have certainly seen birth defects that still resulted in an infrastructure that wasn't just "empty", but rather it worked with what was provided.  In addition, normal variation dictates that no two humans are alike in the development of their nerves and blood vessels, so I'm not clear on why you should be suggesting that there is a specific genetic program versus a more generally conserved process at work here.

"Let's keep spending tax payer dollars on these nuts while children starve and women die of breast cancer."

I'm sure there are many people that would argue about what should be done by governments, but it has nothing to do with biology and even if your wish were granted, the problem would remain unsolved because it is unsolvable.  Humans will always grow their populations until they reach the point of misery.  As for breast cancer .... I can think of dozens of diseases that I'm sure people would love to cure, but in the end, the medical profession also needs to grow up and realize that people die and will continue to die no matter how far the technology progresses.  Failure to acknowledge the role of death is simply immature.

1. "That's putting the cart before the horse. That's the problem I have when people want to propose a design and then seek out the evidence to support it."

MANY evolutionists have stated, "We don't know how it happened, but we know it happened!" You illustrate perfectly what I'm stating. Scientists should start with a blank slate instead of a preconceived belief!

===
2. "There isn't enough water, nor are there any places for it to go."

There would only have to be enough water to cover a pre-flood earth. In fact, if the world were relatively flat, it would be covered with over 8,000 feet of water everywhere. http://www.icr.org/article/520/ PLATE tectonics. Mountains rise up. Valleys sink. Continents shift. A global flood would be global (not like running water in your front yard with a hose).

===
3. "Not true at all. If there were significant clusters of modern species that were grouped together with the appearance that they were trying to escape flood waters, then perhaps you'd have a point. In addition, the geological changes that occur normally are in direct opposition to what you're proposing so there would need to be substantial evidence of what your suggesting before you can overturn all of paleontology."

WE FIND sediment layers that are transcontinental. This can only be explained by massive water sediments on a tremendous scale. It wouldn't be slowly rising waters like a traditional flood. Study Mount St. Helen's eruption to see how a large amount of water can do a lot of geologic work in a small amount of time. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n3/transcontinental-rock-...

===
4. "Sorry, don't know where you got those numbers but I can tell you without even examining them that they are completely bogus. With a spread of 33 times, they aren't even in the ballpark statistically. Reporting that kind of variation is just plain fantasy."

Evolutionists often argue over dates by hundreds of millions of years. To state that a spread of "33 times" inherently disproves something is not correct. The 6,000 to 200,000 range comes from two sets of scientists. Both ASSUME (arbitrarily) different mitochondrial mutation rates. http://www.answersingenesis.org/e-mail/archive/answersweekly/2006/0527.asp

===
5. "There is a vast difference between evaluating something that is known to be a human creation versus something that has no evidence of design. People can be easily mislead in assuming design where none exists, such as in the internet. That is a perfect example of natural evolution producing something far greater than any designer could have established."

The internet was highly designed and depends on "organelles" (routers, hubs, computers, networks, etc.) that thousands of humans designed/contributed to design. If Crick's aliens show up to eat us, do you feel they would think the internet was designed? I think the aliens would recognize what was designed and what was a natural object/formation. Also, "...known to be a human creation..." shows again that you are not grasping the concept of starting with a blank slate and letting the facts determine whether or not it was designed or not.

===
6. On "Billions of fossil links would need to be discovered to account for all the current living organisms.":

There should be billions of "missing link" fossils, but there these aren't found. That is WHY Gould (an evolutionist) proposed what he did to try to cover the lack of evidence. To assume we are talking about soft tissues versus hard tissues is incorrect. You do bring several other points up though:

FACT: Protein was recently found inside a T-rex "fossil" bone and another hadrosaur. Of course, because of preconceived belief, scientists immediately declared that what we had been told for decades about protein aging was wrong, instead of even considering that the "fossils" could be younger. http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_articles/fossilized_collagen_prot...

FACT: The development of symmetry is no where to be found in the fossil record. Where are the millions of transitional fossils showing all the birth defects that must have occurred as we developed symmetry (arms and legs on both sides of the body)?

===
7. "I'm sure there are many people that would argue about what should be done by governments, but it has nothing to do with biology and even if your wish were granted, the problem would remain unsolved because it is unsolvable."

FACT: The Federal government is a huge funding source of biology research. I'm sure a 33 year old woman dying of breast cancer, or a six year old dying of hunger, would vigorously disagree with your indefensible position. We are talking about enabling people to live a healthy and normal lifespan, not immortality.

Gerhard, please provide answers for me since you are surprised at my apparent level of ignorance (despite me Johns Hopkins medical training):

1. How did life originate? (i.e was the NSF wrong when they said this was an "unanswered" question)

2. How specifically did our DNA obtain all the information it contains?

3. How specifically did emotions evolve from chemicals?

4. Is "thinking" just a biochemical illusion?

5. Do geographically separate groups evolve at the same intelligence and physical pace? (i.e. is there a hidden aspect about evolution that would keep all "races" at the same physical and mental levels)

6. Should Darwin and his colleagues have been more open to skeptics of spontaneous generation and gemmules/inherited traits? These two errant tenets greatly impeded science.

7. Are the 5,000 known single base pair mutation diseases imperfect genes that are on the evolutionary verge of becoming perfect, or once perfect genes that are now mutated?

Even though you may believe that our perception of any reality is only a temporal chemical delusion, I would still appreciate you altering my immature delusion!

Gerhard Adam's picture
"In fact, if the world were relatively flat, it would be covered with over 8,000 feet of water everywhere."

Why would you believe the earth was relatively flat?  Even the bible states that Noah's ark settled in a mountain.

"We don't know how it happened, but we know it happened!"

Of course it happened, because they can see that it exists around them.  That doesn't suddenly open the floodgates for every speculative notion to be considered as equally valid.

"This can only be explained by massive water sediments on a tremendous scale."

Not if it occurred over longer time intervals.  There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there was ever a world-wide flood, nor is there any reason to believe that one ever occurred.

"The 6,000 to 200,000 range comes from two sets of scientists."

I dont' care if they came from 50 sets scientists.  That kind of a range is bogus.

"I'm sure a 33 year old woman dying of breast cancer, or a six year old dying of hunger, would vigorously disagree with your indefensible position."
 
They may disagree but it's hardly indefensible, as I would expect they should.  However, it changes nothing, since everyone must die.  Apparently the six year old dying of hunger isn't important enough for anyone to actually do anything about it (since there is plenty of food to go around).  On that basis alone, I can easily argue that the problem is unsolvable because people don't want to solve it. 

As for the 33 year old woman dying of breast cancer, I can readily agree that she would want something done, just as I've seen 80 year old people that want extraordinary measures taken to save their lives.  In addition, there are plenty of people that want to extend the human life-span.  It changes nothing.  People will die, and there isn't anything anyone can do to change that.  What is truly indefensible is people refusing to recognize that simple fact (and being willing to consume any amount of resources to advance their own selfish agenda).  If you want to save people then we don't need to worry about the six year old kid starving.  Instead, why don't we stop with the religious nonsense that results in more people dying from gunshots, knife wounds, and abuse.  Why not focus on the sick individuals that think it's fine to abuse their children or their spouses?  In truth, these problems are unsolvable and it doesn't take a special disease or case to make me realize that the world will never be free of these conditions.  Anyone that thinks it ever will be is being rather naive.

I also find it interesting that you think that putting questions to me that I can't answer somehow negates the reality of biological research.  Since no one has an answer to these questions, I can fathom how you can jump to the conclusion that it must involve design.

1. How did life originate? (i.e was the NSF wrong when they said this was an "unanswered" question)

This is a red herring argument, since no one knows how life originated.  More importantly, even creationists cannot explain their "first cause" so the question is entirely without merit as an indicator of scientific fallacy.

2. How specifically did our DNA obtain all the information it contains?

Through chemical interactions.  If you mean how did it happen to gather the information together that creates humans ... well first you'd have to demonstrate that there was absolutely only one path to achieving that.  I suspect you can't, so don't expect me to answer this question for the entire scientific community.

3. How specifically did emotions evolve from chemicals?

That is much easier, without getting into specific causes, it is clear that the biochemistry of the brain very clearly responds to a variety of chemicals giving rise to the mood-altering drugs as well as the narcotics.  As I'm sure you're aware, this isn't much of a stretch.

4. Is "thinking" just a biochemical illusion?

Clearly it is, because when the biochemistry breaks down the ability to think does too.  This is easily demonstrated by people that have biochemical disorders as well as many of the diseases that are a result of brain deficiencies.  There is absolutely no question that many medications can interfere with the "thinking" process, as I'm sure they covered in medical school.

5. Do geographically separate groups evolve at the same intelligence and physical pace? (i.e. is there a hidden aspect about evolution that would keep all "races" at the same physical and mental levels)

No group is that isolated over time and distance, so while there may be some variation (as seen in tribes that live in the high mountains having evolved larger lung capacities).  To suggest the "same" level is disingenous.  Clearly even people living within the same geographic boundary aren't uniform enough to warrant calling them the "same".

6. Should Darwin and his colleagues have been more open to skeptics of spontaneous generation and gemmules/inherited traits? These two errant tenets greatly impeded science.

Not my problem to defend Darwin or to suggest what he should or shouldn't have done.  He did pretty well for himself.

7. Are the 5,000 known single base pair mutation diseases imperfect genes that are on the evolutionary verge of becoming perfect, or once perfect genes that are now mutated?

If they were once perfect that would make no sense, since you'd first have to determine what function they provided that has subsequently been lost.  I'm highly skeptical about any claims of perfection since there isn't anything I've seen that fits that category.  I'm not sure what this obsession with "becoming perfect" is, but once again, this has never happened and isn't likely to ever happen. 


''Of course it happened, because they can see that it exists around them. That doesn't suddenly open the floodgates for every speculative notion to be considered as equally valid.''

I saw by this comment, and some others earlier on. That you have a misconception of science that I had when I was younger. I thought that theories originated from data, etc. That the support for the theory came before theory itself. But reading great philosophers of science of the 20th century, you clearly ealize that in reality, is not the case. The theory often originates from from very smal observations, it gets developped extensively and only after does the scientist go out and searches for support to his theory. It is very counter-intuitive, but this is exactly how science works in real life. Einstein talked about this concept in a discussion he had with Heisenberg:

''... But on principle, it is quite wrong to try founding a theory on observable magnitudes alone. In reality the very opposite happens. It is the theory which decides what we can observe.''

There is nothing more scientific, according to Einstein, Popper and many other who have spoken about this, than to formulate a theory and then evaluate what you observe according to it.

Nobody knows anything... about love.

I hesitate to add to the long list of commentaries, but thought all might enjoy Robert Frost's much earlier take on the subject of design and chance.

Accidentally on Purpose

The Universe is but the Thing of things,
The things but balls all going round in rings.
Some of them mighty huge, some mighty tiny,
All of them radiant and mighty shiny.

They mean to tell us all was rolling blind
Till accidentally it hit on mind
In an albino monkey in a jungle
And even then it had to grope and bungle,

Till Darwin came to earth upon a year
To show the evolution how to steer.
They mean to tell us, though, the Omnibus
Had no real purpose till it got us.

Never believe it. At the very worst
It must had had the purpose from the first
To produce purpose as the fitter bred:
We were just purpose coming to a head.

Whose purpose was it? His or Hers or Its?
Let's leave that to the scientific wits.
Grant me intention, purpose, and design --
That's near enough for me to the Divine.

And yet for all this help of head and brain
How happily instinctive we remain,
Our best guide upward further to the light,
Passionate preference such as love at sight.

Wallace Kaufman's picture
I believe I successfully added the following before finding the right ID and password to log in, but in case it did not go through, with apologies for possible duplication, I again note that all involved in this discussion might enjoy Robert Frost's much earlier take on design and chance.  Here it is:

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Accidentally on Purpose

The Universe is but the Thing of things,
The things but balls all going round in rings.
Some of them mighty huge, some mighty tiny,
All of them radiant and mighty shiny.

They mean to tell us all was rolling blind
Till accidentally it hit on mind
In an albino monkey in a jungle
And even then it had to grope and bungle,

Till Darwin came to earth upon a year
To show the evolution how to steer.
They mean to tell us, though, the Omnibus
Had no real purpose till it got us.

Never believe it.  At the very worst
It must had had the purpose from the first
To produce purpose as the fitter bred:
We were just purpose coming to a head.

Whose purpose was it?  His or Hers or Its?
Let's leave that to the scientific wits.
Grant me intention, purpose, and design --
That's near enough for me to the Divine.

And yet for all this help of head and brain
How happily instinctive we remain,
Our best guide upward further to the light,
Passionate preference such as love at sight.




I'm glad to see that Gerard couldn't give me specific answers to any of the major questions. He unwittingly proves my point that evolutionists are operating by faith with their "just so" stories.

"We don't know how it happened, but we know it happened!"

I guess monkeys were banging sticks on coconuts, and the other monkeys liked the sound of it...so they bred with the musical monkeys. Thus, over time, the ability to create and enjoy music was generated in humans. I don't know how it happened, but it happened!!! LOL

1. How did life originate? (i.e was the NSF wrong when they said this was an "unanswered" question)

This is a red herring argument, since no one knows how life originated. More importantly, even creationists cannot explain their "first cause" so the question is entirely without merit as an indicator of scientific fallacy.

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "I don't know how life spontaneously generated, but I know it did! I have FAITH it did. I believe it so much that I'll defend it without proof. Plus, I'll put others down for their beliefs at the same time."

2. How specifically did our DNA obtain all the information it contains?

Through chemical interactions. If you mean how did it happen to gather the information together that creates humans ... well first you'd have to demonstrate that there was absolutely only one path to achieving that. I suspect you can't, so don't expect me to answer this question for the entire scientific community.

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "I don't know how chemical interactions created forward/reverse/3D/palindromic DNA information more sophisticated than any supercomputer on Earth, but I know it did! I have FAITH it did. I believe it so much that I'll defend it without proof. Plus, I'll put others down for their beliefs at the same time."

3. How specifically did emotions evolve from chemicals?

That is much easier, without getting into specific causes, it is clear that the biochemistry of the brain very clearly responds to a variety of chemicals giving rise to the mood-altering drugs as well as the narcotics. As I'm sure you're aware, this isn't much of a stretch.

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "I'll dodge the question of how emotions evolved, and instead state that chemicals influence mood. If I did choose to answer, I would say I don't know how emotions evolved, and even though it is sheer speculation, I'll believe it and defend it. Uhhh...what do I believe in again?"

4. Is "thinking" just a biochemical illusion?

Clearly it is, because when the biochemistry breaks down the ability to think does too. This is easily demonstrated by people that have biochemical disorders as well as many of the diseases that are a result of brain deficiencies. There is absolutely no question that many medications can interfere with the "thinking" process, as I'm sure they covered in medical school.

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "I believe there is no other reality than illusionary chemicals, although I can't prove the opposite. Thus, I'll make fun of those who have different beliefs than me just because I like arguing and feeling important on this science blog."

5. Do geographically separate groups evolve at the same intelligence and physical pace? (i.e. is there a hidden aspect about evolution that would keep all "races" at the same physical and mental levels)

No group is that isolated over time and distance, so while there may be some variation (as seen in tribes that live in the high mountains having evolved larger lung capacities). To suggest the "same" level is disingenous. Clearly even people living within the same geographic boundary aren't uniform enough to warrant calling them the "same".

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "I'm a racist just like Dr. Watson (who cares if he discovered DNA because he was fired for making a similar remark). And who cares if the Bible teaches we are "one blood", and recent studies only show 0.2% DNA difference between "races". Heck, yeah we needed to bring that Pigmy here and put him on display in the NY zoo like they did Ota Benga. And, YES, it is more important to listen for ALIENS than to study breast cancer and feed the hungry. We are just selfish genes so I would rather have science foster this great blog than feed kids."

6. Should Darwin and his colleagues have been more open to skeptics of spontaneous generation and gemmules/inherited traits? These two errant tenets greatly impeded science.

Not my problem to defend Darwin or to suggest what he should or shouldn't have done. He did pretty well for himself.

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "Things do spontaneously generate, although no one has ever observed this or tested it (forget the rules of science because this is a THEORY immune to testing). I don't know how life spontaneously generated, but I know it did! I have FAITH it did. I believe it so much that I'll defend it without proof. Plus, I'll put others down for their beliefs at the same time."

7. Are the 5,000 known single base pair mutation diseases imperfect genes that are on the evolutionary verge of becoming perfect, or once perfect genes that are now mutated?

If they were once perfect that would make no sense, since you'd first have to determine what function they provided that has subsequently been lost. I'm highly skeptical about any claims of perfection since there isn't anything I've seen that fits that category. I'm not sure what this obsession with "becoming perfect" is, but once again, this has never happened and isn't likely to ever happen.

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "I'll ignore the tens of thousands of genes that ARE perfect in the human body, and declare the 5,000 imperfection as representative of the other tens of thousands. I'll also ignore the fact that mutational load is increasing by 300 bp per generation. I haven't read the inventor of the gene gun's book "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome" and I don't need too because I am set in my beliefs. Science's major theories never change (well, except for spontaneous generation and magic gemmules). I'll even state that just because I don't know the answer someone else must know the answer!"

Gerhard Adam's picture

I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time or the inclination to fill the gaps in your education, nor engage in parsing your definition of science into religious concepts.  Whatever you want to believe is strictly your own concern. 

If you feel that science is so deficient, then why waste other people's time?



Tell me exactly how it works! I'm waiting!!!

Gerhard Adam's picture
Wait all you like.  I have too many other things to do than to argue with someone that clearly has little understanding of science and a personal agenda.

"I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time or the inclination to fill the gaps in your education, nor engage in parsing your definition of science into religious concepts. Whatever you want to believe is strictly your own concern.

If you feel that science is so deficient, then why waste other people's time?"

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "Since I have no clue how to answer Dr. Miller's science questions on life and DNA, I'll just try to pretend that I DO know the answers, but tell him I just DON'T have time to fill in the gaps in his education. If that doesn't silence him, I'll just throw some religious comment into the mix. No one has ever really held my feet to the fire for specific answers (usually just stating 'through chemical reactions' works for the average IQ person). But, it sure feels uncomfortable not being able to provide clear answers given that I defend my evolutionary particles-to-people FAITH. For some reason I thought my side had clear, concise answers. Hmmm. I'll just try to disparage his argument as religious in nature instead of admitting that I operate on faith in my evolutionary belief system. I know I'm right because tons of other people believe what I believe. If that doesn't work, I'll just threaten to stop posting on this thread by saying he is wasting my time. God, it is hot in here."

Wait all you like. I have too many other things to do than to argue with someone that clearly has little understanding of science and a personal agenda.

LET ME ADD TO THE END OF GERARD'S ANSWER: "I've only given Dr. Miller speculative answers , so I'll just tell HIM he has little understanding of science. Yeah, if I say it like I mean it and act like I know what I'm talking about, then I can worm my way out. I don't like how this conversation has evolved. I'll pray it goes extinct."

Gerhard Adam's picture

If it makes you feel better holding both sides of the conversation, then feel free to indulge.  In truth, I'm not convinced that you hold any of the credentials you claim, and I seriously doubt that you've had much exposure to biology, since you seem to be so fundamentally unaware of the developments discussed in the literature.



Please do fill in the gaps in my education! I've asked you for simple, definitive answers.

Do some of your recent "developments" discussed in the literature demonstrate RNA changing into a bacteria? I will openly discuss/debate any developments with you.

Even the relevance of the blog article above is speculative in its relevance to explaining the origin of life. The study showed that RNA "evolved" into (drumroll)...RNA. Hmmm...chemicals behaving like...chemicals!

The fact is that you operate on faith, not definitive answers.

A = probably true in the future
is NOT equivalent to
A = true today

The point of all my postings is to demonstrate that the majority of scientists interpret data based on their existing beliefs instead of letting the data determine their beliefs. (e.g. Oparin errantly interpreted the presence of hemoglogin in nitrogen-fixing nodules as having no purpose because of his evolutionary belief). Even Darwin was so set in his prior beliefs that he failed to discover Mendelian genetics (he had an opportunity to do so before Mendel did).

Fire some developments at me! I'm speculating they will be speculative, non-definitive, and/or disputed. Of course, you may say that science constantly changes. I will reply, "So you are saying you can't be sure about anything?"

I'll be waiting.

I was searching for some recent developments online after you stimulated me to do so: http://www.physorg.com/news161358845.html

"Sasselov, professor of astrophysics at Harvard and director of the Harvard Origins of Life Initiative, agreed with Verschuur that life is probably common in the universe. He said that he believes life is a natural “planetary phenomenon” that occurs easily on planets with the right conditions."

HEY GERARD, IS THIS BASED ON THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD OR BELIEF ON DR. SASSELOV'S PART?
------>>>"...occurs easily on planets with the right conditions."

Has Dr. Sasselov observed life originating easily on any planet? Or, is this statement based on his existing evolutionary beliefs?

Ask some of your colleagues (if you work in academia) to see if they can help answer! Oh, wait a minute. They may fire you for even questioning the particles-to-people evolutionary religion...

logicman's picture
Rob Miller:  the only 'faith' element in science is faith in the sanity of the observer.  When a large number of independent and impartial observers choose what they consider to be the least irrational explanation for a phenomenon, then we must assume that they are not all, by some unexplained coincidence, stark raving mad.

You can tell when scientists are impartial - they often come from countries with less than friendly relationships.  If a communist and a capitalist, a jew and an arab can agree on a scientific observation, then that lends weight to their impartiality - not their faith in the results, and much less in each other.

The comment about monkeys inventing music is obviously unresearched.  Drums, gongs and other noise-makers have a greater carrying power than any human voice.  Before ever music was invented, humans must have invented the alarm signal.  I say 'must have' because it is not a matter of faith - monkeys have alarm signals to protect them from predators.  We just happen to have invented louder alarms, and hence, music.  Never forget, one man's skirling, stirling music is another man's 'idiot torturing a cat' on the front lines of battle.  Music or noise, either way, it has always proven very effective in letting people know that the British are coming.  :)

rholley's picture
Music or noise, either way, it has always proven very effective in letting people know that the British are coming.  :)


Or the Turks.  I read that in the armies of Suleiman the Magnificent,  there was a very loud military band whose function was to intimidate the enemy.

I also read that of all the orchestral instruments, the trombone at 4.3 W is the loudest.  Now, as a way of dispersing demonstrators ....


PATRICK, how does your first paragraph apply to the history of spontaneous generation? A large number of independent and impartial observers (e.g. Darwin himself) believed that mice came from rotting hay, alligators from rotting logs, flies from rotting meat, and mayflies from dewdrops for HUNDREDS OF YEARS (Oparin's "The Origin of Life" book has a great review on this). Generations had not questioned their scientific indoctrination with the "just so" stories. Until...Pasteur came along. His colleagues weren't mad, they were just blinded by their faith.

Today, scientists are trying to revive spontaneous generation, but repackage it as a long process. They don't know how it happened, but they swear it happened! (i.e. beliefs are dictating their science, not observable facts). 'We will observe the properties of chemicals acting like chemicals, then declare we are well on our way to understanding how RNA created a multicelled, thinking person.'

The fact is that scientists are intellectually dishonest when representing themselves as "impartial." Look at the ridiculous, unsubstantiated comments from the Origins of Life Initiative above. I'm not against science (I'm an MD), but I am against willful ignorance hiding under the cover of science.

You state: "Before ever music was invented, humans must have invented the alarm signal."
Did you observe humans inventing the alarm signal using the scientific method?

Humans have the glorious ability to enjoy music, while just a few have the incredible ability to produce it. Do you know some monkeys "must have" been better alarm sounders, so they were naturally selected because more food was brought to them? So after millions of years the better alarm sounders' genes evolved into an infinitely complex neural process that could appreciate and/or create multiple scales of perfect pitch music? Is this an observable fact, or a another "just so" story?

FACT: Scientists don't agree on an undisputed explanation of how spoken language or music evolved.

The correct answer would have been, "I'm not sure." The "must have" answer shows that you are interpreting the known facts using your faith in evolution.

I look forward to discussing with you further. Your work on computer languages looks interesting. I'll read more on it. You may appreciate the book, "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome" from the Cornell professor that invented the gene therapy gun. It discusses the language of DNA and how mutational load is reducing fitness of the human genome (not improving it).

FROM ONE OF PATRICK'S ARTICLES ON THIS SITE = SHEER SPECULATION, NOT "MUST HAVE" FACTS:
"In a time long gone, in a place unknown, a group of not quite humans huddled together in a cave, fearful of the noise of rain, thunder and howling wind outside. By some as yet unknown process they had progressed beyond the grunts and gestures of a purely command-oriented language. For them, there was a comfort and a joy in the feel of language, in its flowing rhythms and its power. Perhaps they had learned to chant rhythms together. Language, a gift from evolution, became something more than a tool. One day it would blossom into poetry and song. But in a stone-age cave it would have been, for our ancestors, the greatest force for bonding a collection of genetically related beings into a true community. In a fire-lit shelter against a bewildering maelstrom of natural forces, language was surely the brightest candle against the raging darkness."

I see Patrick's above statements are based on speculation, so I'm not sure how the "must have" is valid regarding music (an arguably more sophisticated form of language). It takes much faith to believe the above paragraph from Patrick.

Are there any scientists on this site that I can discuss facts with instead of "just so" stories?

It's amazing how "professors" will openly preach evolution to their impressionable young students. But, when challenged on this board to provide clear, concise, unbiased answers, they scatter like leaves in the wind.

I listened to CNN yesterday as Mayor Bloomberg proclaimed the little lemur Ida as 'the missing link that Darwin had hoped to find.' I found that odd since the scientific journal editors made the research team tone down their linkage claims.

If evolutionists aren't chasing little green men throughout the galaxy and beyond (see the comments above about Nobel prize winner Dr. Crick and Harvard conference), or getting fired for racist comments (see comments on Dr. Watson above), then they are making wild claims about extinct lemurs for a lucrative History Channel deal (or making up pure speculative stories about cavemen chanting rhythmically together in a cold dark cave). Maybe the little green men will show up soon and explain it all to us...

Hank's picture
I found that odd since the scientific journal editors made the research team tone down their linkage claims.

I'd like for you to document this.   Citing a NY politician's somewhat misguided claims and then saying that has anything to do with actual science is nonsensical.  I read that study four times and, while I agree that the mass media hyped this beyond belief, we did not.   Nor did the authors, at least in their study.  

But if you have proof that journal editors made anyone 'tone down' anything in their article (in PLoS One, no less, which proves you know nothing about peer reviewed science journals) it will revolutionize publishing.

"Note that Darwinius masillae, and adapoids contemporary with early tarsioids, could represent a stem group from which later anthropoid primates evolved, but we are not advocating this here, nor do we consider either Darwinius or adapoids to be anthropoids."

jtwitten's picture
Did your Johns Hopkins medical education not cover logic?  Generalizing to all scientists from a few individuals is the height of fallacy.  I might as well say that I've known a doctor who is a jack ass.  Therefore, all doctors are jack asses.  It is also fallacious to assume that simply because an individual has ideas that you do not like or respect that all their ideas must be bad.

In addition, although it may be a technical distinction, but none of the individuals you have referenced are evolutionary biologists. 

I will also humbly suggest that by producing comments of great length stating a plethora of supposed issues and even more supposed facts discourages debate, as none of the points can be dealt with in depth.

jtwitten's picture
Also, on an aesthetic level, appending MD to your name looks kind of pretentious and insecure at the same time.

Hank's picture
At last count, we had some 1000 PhDs or doctors as members here.   Imagine if everyone did that.  Worse, imagine if everyone met ... this X 40 ...



logicman's picture
Should a doctor doctor a doctor ... ?

logicman's picture
Rob Miller:  we do not 'scatter' because of your comments.  Unless we choose to enable comment tracking on each of the thousands of pages here, it is only by accident that we stumble upon these comments.

"Before ever music was invented, humans must have invented the alarm signal."
Did you observe humans inventing the alarm signal using the scientific method?

For 'must have', please read 'logic demands that'.  Since we have alarm devices, and they don't grow on trees, logic demands that we invented them.  Again, it takes an evolved brain to build an evolved device - using a stick to hit a naturally hollow log, or the buttress roots of some tree species, does not require an evolved brain.

Thank you for publicising my article in the above comment.  However, when copying and pasting from one person's blog to another, even on the same site, it is customary to cite the original article.

I shall not reply to any more of your comments since you appear to have an agenda, and such dicussion  would  only serve to distract readers from Dave Deamer's excellent article.

Hank, here is the quote that was reported in the Guardian:

"The paper's scientific reviewers asked that they tone down their original claims that the fossil was on the human evolutionary line." from http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/may/19/fossil-ida-missing-link
PlosOne is to be commended for not being swept along with all of the hype.

IMAGINE a peer-reviewed journal using peer-review to SUGGEST CHANGES for the article. Happens all the time Hank! It is a sad fact that scientists in today's economy have to inflate the importance of their findings in order to be more competitive for funding. Economic survival of the fittest at work, right?

A few others that may interest you:

Dr. Gingerich told the Wall Street Journal: “There was a TV company involved and time pressure. We’ve been pushed to finish the study. It’s not how I like to do science.” http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25515021-2702,00.html

“It’s not a missing link, it’s not even a terribly close relative to monkeys, apes and humans, which is the point they’re trying to make,” said Chris Beard, a curator of vertebrate paleontology at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh. . . . http://www.livescience.com/culture/090520-ida-fossil-hype.html

Other researchers grumble that by describing the history of anthropoids as “somewhat speculatively identified lineages of isolated teeth,” the PLoS paper dismisses years of new fossils. “It’s like going back to 1994,” says paleontologist K. Christopher Beard of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, who has published jaw, teeth, and limb bones of Eosimias. “They’ve ignored 15 years of literature.” http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/519/1

FACT: Scientists allowed the mainstream media to overhype this find.

QUESTIONS FOR HANK:
1. I was pointing out that Mayor Bloomberg's comments were misinformed because scientists/mainstream media overinflated this find. How can you point out that you didn't overhype this find, but then criticize me for pointing out that Bloomberg's statement was inflated? Is this the missing link that Darwin longed for?

2. You state, "Nor did the authors, at least in their study." In other words, you are saying that they kept it toned down in the study publication, but really went overboard with the History Channel deal and theatrical-style claims, right? Is that what you mean but "...at least in their study."?

3. Do you agree with Dr. Gingerich that having the time pressure of a TV company is not a good way to do science?

Hank's picture
Rob,  I agree that some mainstream people hyped this.  I also agree that one scientist, Hurum, tends to go overboard in his media hype, but he is a paleontologist and not a biologist.

You keep wanting to take the exaggeration of (a) Bloomberg and (b) a paleontologist who is sort of a running joke to many scientists and (c) the History Channel(!) as being an indictment of evolution.  That doesn't make any sense.

3. is just a straw man.   I am all for media exposure and if the History Channel offers to do a TV special on us if we delay an article, I will do it.   That doesn't mean the biologists here - arguably the best compilation in the world - are making things up.   The researchers worked on the fossil for two years.

JOSH, so posting in-depth responses prevents in-depth discussions? Not sure if I follow you! I have many great scientist friends, so I don't understand your comment. Also, I'm glad to see you use the word "ideas" instead of "must haves" (apparently Rob Miller won't admit that his speculation of cavemen humming rhythmically in a damp cave is just an "idea", not a "must have" proven fact).

I see you study genetics. I was wondering if you could explain to me how DNA came to possess palindromic and topographic encoded information. Please don't say aliens created it and flew it here on unmanned spaceships like Dr. Crick believed.

P.S. I enjoyed reading your profile where you state, "I feel no constraint to restrain myself to things that I know something about."

jtwitten's picture
Rob,

There is nothing wrong with in-depth discussion.  The problem arises when one attempts to have the in-depth discussion all at once.  To insure that individual ideas are dealt with thoroughly as individually as possible, they need to be dealt with individually and intense focus.

In this case, because you asked about a single topic, I can ask a clarifying question.  Neither my ability to study your question, nor your ability to reply will be distracted by numerous other issues.
I was wondering if you could explain to me how DNA came to possess palindromic and topographic encoded information.

Please clarify the nature of the "how" information that you are requesting.

ROB, you answered my speculation accusation with more speculation!

The only agenda I have is to keep scientists honest. A fair "I don't know!" is more intellectually honest than speculative pontifications. You are making assumptions to "prove" your assumptions. Perhaps Josh can explain the "logical fallacy" of this to you.

P.S. "Signals" are just noise unless the receiving party assigns a meaning to the signal. The signal plus signal reception would have to develop simultaneously to be of significance. You can only provide more speculation on how this would have co-evolved. Am I wrong?

Rob, I agree with you that the media and scientists hyped this. That was my point that Bloomberg did a disservice to science and himself by making such a misinformed statement (it made him look brainwashed by the media). We still appreciate his $100 million JHU contribution! He's a brilliant businessman. Perhaps it was a poor choice for CNN to quote him.

“The PR campaign on this fossil is I think more of a story than the fossil itself,” said anthropologist Matt Cartmill of Duke University in North Carolina. “It’s a very beautiful fossil, but I didn’t see anything in this paper that told me anything decisive that was new.” http://www.livescience.com/animals/090520-fossil-reactions.html

I wasn't trying to draw any distinction between biologists and paleontologists (not sure of your point). When the media and scientists make obviously false and/or inflated statements, I hope the great scientists on this site have the intellectually integrity to step forward with us to condemn such inflated statements. I define stretching the claims as "making things up." I define someone pretending to have definitive answers (e.g. how did life begin; how did DNA obtain the encoded information, etc.) as "making things up." (in reference to Gerhard). A simple "I don't know!" will suffice from any scientist (including biologists).

Also, I would hope the great scientists on this site would agree that it is SPECULATION to say that monkeys banging sticks led to the development of an incredible ability in humans to create/appreciate music. How was the scientific method used to derive that "just so" story? (rhetorical)

P.s. Great site you've created! Congratulations on the commercial success. I DO NOT think posting how much yearly revenue ($60 million) your prior company accomplished is pretentious (Josh may think otherwise). I'm a free market guy (I retired last year at the age of 38 due to similar success). I'm starting a gene therapy company (we are examining various technologies now).

Josh, I understand what you mean. If this comment board allowed threads/subposts, it would be easier to stay on a particular topic while allowing new topic posts, too (Hank, no charge for the idea).

Scientists used to think DNA was simply a 'bead on strings' molecule. Now we know that DNA possesses coded information forward/backwards, 3D (chromosomal topography), and palindromic (especially the Y chromosome), plus epigentic information. What I'm asking is do you know how the most sophisticated information storage device known in the universe arose from random particles? Or do you just have faith and join the crowd in yelling, "I don't know how it happened, but it happened!" (don't worry - I won't tell your mentors!)

jtwitten's picture
My question still is: what do you mean by "how"?

Do you mean a story describing the events that occurred to make DNA the information molecule?  Or, are you asking about the evolutionary mechanisms that are consistent with DNA as the information storage molecule?

do you know how the most sophisticated information storage device known in the universe arose from random particles?

I would not agree with your statement that DNA is the most sophisticated device of its kind.  When compared to all the storage devices available, it is difficult to argue that it is the most sophisticated.  DNA contains numerous trade-offs between efficiencies and inefficiencies.    

The random particle conjecture is also a gross over simplification.  For example, star formation locally increases order, while increasing entropy at the universe wide scale.  As a result of the stellar cycle, concentrations of elements are not randomly distributed.  Instead, the concentrations of certain elements are correlated with each other, biasing the chemistries that are possible.

logicman's picture
What I'm asking is do you know how the most sophisticated information
storage device known in the universe arose from random particles?

The most sophisticated storage device known to science is the human brain.  It is a marvel of evolution.  It is the only product of evolution with reflexive properties: it can inspect, analyse and decode the very DNA that determines in major ways how its neuron groups shall be layered.  We have learned so much about evolution only because we have a brain and hence, the gift of language.

If I say that the brain is the most sophisticated storage device known to science, then anyone is entitled to ask: "what does the brain store?" and "how does the brain store it?".  The brain stores information - that much is known.  The other question is still under investigation, but research strongly shows that neurons and their interconnections can be modified temporarily or permanantly.  The interdependence and inter-relations of neurons as groups strongly suggest that the brain produces a formal abstraction of the environment as a mental model.  The whole of language and its rules of operation is represented as mental models.

The four components of DNA can produce a likeness of any living thing.  By using our brains and language, we humans can make reasonable facsimiles of anything, invent new things and even debate for hours on end about things mythical, hypothetical, imaginary, hallucinated or real, and then extrapolate and interpolate still more ad libidinum.

And you thought DNA was complex?

Kimberly Crandell's picture
Patrick... I love this line of thought.  I think there are few mysteries out there that are more fascinating and rich than how our own human brain reasons, communicates, remembers, and creates - while simultaneously managing a million mundane functional requests as part of its "day job". 

Josh, nothing stores as much information in as small of a space as DNA does (volume to volume comparison).

You mention that DNA determines in a major way how neuron groups should be layered. Obviously, DNA contains detailed information/instructions on how to build/organize other molecules, and even multicellular organisms. Where did those instructions come from?

I'll take your advice and limit my question to just this one topic. I do have numerous questions about some of the multiple statements you posted simultaneously above.

jtwitten's picture
So, by "sophisticated" you mean "compact".  Sophisticated can mean a number of things.  DNA is quite unsophisticated in number of ways.  And, of course, the comparison to hard drive density has less to do with the limitations of the information storage device and more to do with the technical limitations of how the information is read out and printed.  Of course, hard drives have teh capacity to change the information at will, a capability that adds limitations.

Again, "how" questions are vague.  Do you want stories or predictive theory?  

I don't agree that "how" questions are vague. It isn't a trick question.

The National Academy of Science asks "how" questions.
http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=12161
"How did life begin? The origin of life is one of the most intriguing, difficult, and enduring questions in science. The only remaining evidence of where, when, and in what form life first appeared springs from geological investigations of rocks and minerals. To help answer the question, scientists are also turning toward Mars, where the sedimentary record of early planetary history predates the oldest Earth rocks, and other star systems with planets."

How about a what version of the question? (I had to pose as a how)

What natural process instilled into DNA the mind-blowing, alien-invoking coded information it contains?
Both stories and/or predictive theory are fine at this wonderfully late hour.

Best regards, Rob

jtwitten's picture
The statement of general questions of import by the NAS is used to define areas of research interest, not to present mechanistic questions.  Academy members would call those questions vague.

The evolutionary processes of mutation, selection, and drift are all that is needed to explain the information or lack thereof in DNA.  The complexity of information in DNA is frequently overstated.  There is no good evidence that there is any non-sequence dependent information (including the fine scale shape of the DNA) contained in DNA.  The structure of a DNA polymer combined with protein-DNA interactions explains the high information density.  Upon the occurrence of a protein or RNA that interacts with DNA and compacts its structure further allowing more information to be encoded.

Nucleic acids have the addtional advantages of being able to perform biochemical functions, occurring through natural, non-biological processes, and being relatively stable as polymers.

Much of the perceived genomic complexity (e.g., introns and "junk") can be explained by drift.  As organisms become more complex and have smaller population sizes, the populations become unable to eliminate these slightly deleterious expansions in genome size.  

Perhaps the conversation would be more directed it you were to state what precisely you think is inconsistent with natural mechanisms, thus requiring the postulation of additional forces.

jtwitten's picture
I would also avoid getting too caught up in anything bizarre that an individual scientist says, no matter how supposedly reputable.

-->"The evolutionary processes of mutation, selection, and drift are all that is needed to explain the information or lack thereof in DNA."
This is a "just so" general story that doesn't address how all of the original information in DNA came to exist.

FACT: No one has an undisputed answer for how information-rich DNA formed through "natural mechanisms" to control and direct a single cell, much less an entire organism. For Josh to pretend otherwise simply "stretches the truth." Josh confirmed my suspicion that he accepts "just so" stories and isn't intellectually accountable enough to just say, "Science doesn't know!"

Diverting the discussion to all of the side issues of a question (brain structure, perceived complexity, introns, etc.) is not a substitute for actually answering the question! Semantical ruses disguised to impress are amusing. This is a consistent pattern I've documented from the others posting here.

-->"The complexity of information in DNA is frequently overstated."
You can't overstate DNA's complexity when we don't even fully understand DNA's complexity. Again, the correct answer would have simply been, "We don't understand DNA's full complexity." The recent explosion in epigenetic research funding documents that DNA is only part of a very complex information system.

I can only imagine what Dr. Crick would have proposed if he had understood the added layers of complexity and information! He may have said that we had microscopic aliens living inside of us (instead of aliens just sending life here on unmanned spacecraft).

--> "Much of the perceived genomic complexity (e.g., introns and "junk") can be explained by drift. As organisms become more complex and have smaller population sizes, the populations become unable to eliminate these slightly deleterious expansions in genome size."

Genetic drift REDUCES information (versus creating information) by decreasing heterozygosity (not just by increased introns and "junk") so your statement is only partially correct. As a population becomes less heterozygous, it becomes less able to adapt to a new environment. The trend of decreasing heterozygosity shows that life in the past exhibited greater heterozygosity than life today. So what "natural mechanisms" produced the original greater heterozygosity (greater DNA information)? Are Yorkies more "complex" and fit than wolves?

***************
Bonus question:
Where is the clear experimental data of mutation plus selection creating a new kind of animal? I've seen a few fruit flies with legs on their heads, but they were just funny looking fruit flies (not new kinds of animals).
***************

jtwitten's picture
-->"The evolutionary processes of mutation, selection, and drift are
all that is needed to explain the information or lack thereof in DNA."
This is a "just so" general story that doesn't address how all of the original information in DNA came to exist.

There is a distinction between a "just so" story and a scientific statement.  My statement is that the observed phenomena are consistent with existing evolutionary theory.  It is not possible to construct a narrative describing the sequential events that occurred, because the evidence of those events no longer exists.  Once chemical replicators existed, no additions to the standard forces of evolutionary theory are necessary to explain current observations.  While the specific origin of a replicator was an improbable chance event, over the time scales and number of chemical reactions involved the overall likelihood is not unreasonable.  Do not allow the vanishingly small probability of a specific event occurring at a specific place and time distract your from the statistical certainty that specific events at specific places and times happen continuously.     

You have not yet described what evidence would accept as "proof" of a natural, mechanistic origin. 

The example of introns was simply a representative illustration of a perceived complexity of the genome that is actual the result of random processes.
"We don't understand DNA's full complexity." The recent explosion in
epigenetic research funding documents that DNA is only part of a very
complex information system.

No.  The correct statement is that our observations are consistent with that DNA's information content is sequence dependent (plus thermodynamic noise).  Citing the explosion of epigenetic research funding is an argumentum ad populum.  It does not imply that the information is not determined by sequence.  Numerous factors that are nto related to scientific truth mpact funding priorities.  That being said, epigenetic research has the potential to be informative independent of whether it adds "complexity" to DNA.

The structural complexity of the systems that translate genotype into phenotype should not be confused with complexity in the message itself.  Simple rules and building blocks can generate complex behaviors.  
Genetic drift REDUCES information

It may be helpful if you define your use of information.  Drift and selection act to reduce genetic variation.  Mutation and migration act to increase variation.  Variation is not synomous with information content.  Most variation is noise.  If you want to go back to the origins of life, then a great deal of variation would have been created by low fidelity replication of RNA or DNA.

What is your evidence for the claim of decreasing heterozygosity?  The example of dogs and wolves is irrelevant, as that is the result of ignorant breeding practices.

The example of fruit flies is disingenous.  First, the experiments you refer to were exploring develpmental signalling pathways, not speciation.  Second, the definition of a "new" animal is imprecise and subjective.  Third, a failure to experimentally produce a "new" animal is entirely consistent with limitations due to cost, time, and low bomedical impact value of such experiments.

I agree on the individual scientist comment - clearly winning the Nobel prize has no correlation to common sense! Dr. Watson (Crick's buddy) was fired for making racially charged evolutionary statements, too.

jtwitten's picture
To be precise, Watson may have been fired for making non-PC racially charge evolutionary statements, but he was not defended by scientists because his statements went against the scientific evidence.

Hank's picture
That's a key idea the more conspiratorial anti-science contingent misses. They tend to think there is some cabal invested in promoting dogma (no surprise, plenty of religions do that, so it is a frame they understand) but the opposite is true in science; people are competitors.

No one circles the wagons around Nobel prize winners (except when it comes to group letters endorsing presidential candidates, but that's because everyone votes for the same party anyway) - heck, in the science community you get bonus points for proving a Nobel laureate wrong.

logicman's picture
in the science community you get bonus points for proving a Nobel laureate wrong.

I'm not going to even try that - unless it gets me a scientificblogging t-shirt.

Dave,

Excellent article! It has long seemed to me that the potential for life existed in matter and the laws of nature all along. The origin and evolution of life seems to be a continuation of the evolution of the matter of the universe. The work of people such as Jack Szostak and yourself will quite likely eventually bear this out.

I wonder why many people apparently equate belief in the scientific Theory of Evolution with life having no purpose? To me it provides a much superior foundation for human purpose and meaning than does, say, Christianity. Evolution is dynamic and very creative. It created living beings through a process that more or less continually increased the capabilities of species of which we are one. Our general purpose is to continue in the same vein as evolution -- to increase our knowledge, to grow and improve and increase our capabilities. We are at a point where we are realizing our profound interconnectedness and interdependence with other people, with other species, with nature. This imples that our growth should include learning greater compassion and cooperation as part our advancement of capabilities.

Let me plug one of my favorite books, Nonzero, by Robert Wright.

Fred, as much as I would love to be clear what the purpose of my few decades in hundreds of millenia might be, evolution is not an entity that can create a provable purpose. I believe either Marston Bates or Garret Hardin once wrote that evolution had created many wonderful creatures, most of them dead ends. The dinosaurs survived far longer than Homo sapiens has existed and is now extinct, the writer noted. And what assurance do we have that intelligence is not also a dead end?

In fact, the more pessimistic Jeremiahs among us are forever telling us that our own intelligence has already doomed us. If we believe that life came about and evolved by random events, then we must ask if randomness can be construed to have a purpose. Saying yes, I believe, requires a leap of faith.

Hello Wallace,

You wrote:
“Fred, as much as I would love to be clear what the purpose of my few decades in hundreds of millenia might be, evolution is not an entity that can create a provable purpose.”

Evolution does not provide a *specific* purpose for any individual, but it does show us a basic purpose of life in general, including human life. That general purpose is as I have indicated above. It is not easy to prove in terms of scientific experiments, but with sufficient study of the issue, I believe the case for general purpose is much more logical and sound than Stephen Jay Gould’s arguments for the non-directionality and purposelessness of evolution. Gould’s position on the topic, backed by Earnst Mayr, seems to have become practically ideological dogma on the issue among academics and atheists, but in recent years is being challenged.

“I believe either Marston Bates or Garret Hardin once wrote that evolution had created many wonderful creatures, most of them dead ends. The dinosaurs survived far longer than Homo sapiens has existed and is now extinct, the writer noted.”

Indeed, it’s estimated that of all species that have ever lived, well over 99% are extinct. This indicates something of the trial-and-error nature of evolution. Many of those that became extinct were driven to it by the evolution of more capable competition, inability to adapt to a changing environment, increased abilities of predators, etc. Natural selection causes the gradual increase of capabilities of life in general over time.

“The dinosaurs survived far longer than Homo sapiens has existed and is now extinct, the writer noted. And what assurance do we have that intelligence is not also a dead end?”

Homo sapiens might become extinct. But thousands of other species exhibit some type of intelligence. If we disappear, it is likely that some other species will eventually show up with intellectual capabilites similar to ours. The evolution of intelligence appears to be bulit in, so to speak, to the laws of nature. As Carl Sagan has stated, if life were begin on another planet, sooner or later intelligence would almost certainly emerge.

“If we believe that life came about and evolved by random events, then we must ask if randomness can be construed to have a purpose. Saying yes, I believe, requires a leap of faith.”

Life came about and evolved by random events, IN COMBINATION with the laws of nature (which control natural selection) – which are NOT random. Many of the events that affect life including mutations occur randomly. But it is the apparent fixed nature of the “laws of nature” that, via natural selection, ulitmately imparts general purpose.

Regarding faith, as Einstein said (paraphrased): Even scientists must have faith that the laws of nature are consistently reliable. But in everyday practical situations, it seems that the laws of nature can be trusted. Gravity always seems to always pull things earthward with consistent force. If my car stops running, there always seems to be a cause consistent with what we know about how cars work.

Sorry for my absence everyone! I've just returned from touring Europe for the past few weeks.

Fred, you enthusiastically state that, "Evolution is dynamic and very creative." I've been asking people on this site (and at fine academic institutes) for experimental data showing evolution creating a "very creative" new kind of animal. Do you have any examples for me?

Modern medicine is decreasing human fitness (you state "...improve and increase our capabilities.") by allowing deleterious mutations to continue within the gene population. For example, retinoblastoma used to be nearly 100% fatal. Modern medicine can quickly "cure" it, but survivors pass it along to their children.Q

Hello Rob,

Fred, you enthusiastically state that, "Evolution is dynamic and very creative." I've been asking people on this site (and at fine academic institutes) for experimental data showing evolution creating a "very creative" new kind of animal. Do you have any examples for me?

New species have been created in labs, and new species have been seen to develop in nature, but I doubt that any of these particular new species could be considered to be “very creative” in themselves. By far the most creative species now existing seems to be Homo sapiens. It took evolution billions of years to come up with us. We have quite a bit of information to indicate how we came to be, although we are not about to create advanced versions of ourselves just yet (but we probably will eventually).

Modern medicine is decreasing human fitness (you state "...improve and increase our capabilities.") by allowing deleterious mutations to continue within the gene population. For example, retinoblastoma used to be nearly 100% fatal. Modern medicine can quickly "cure" it, but survivors pass it along to their children.Q

Human life is incredibly complex. Modern medicine, like many aspects of our culture, is filled with pros and cons. You point out one negative aspect of modern medicine. There are probably thousands more such examples, but also at least as many examples of positive affects of modern medicine – one being that “retinoblastoma” can now be medically countered. But these are details.

People are living increasingly longer. Technological knowledge and capabilities are increasing at ever accelerating rates. But the world population is growing to a point that our life sustaining environment and resources are under threat. Advancement brings new problems. Will humanity have the intelligence and wisdom to solve them?

Hello Rob,

(I just posted this using HTML tags which did not work, so just for clariity, here it is again using standard quotes.)

You wrote:
“Fred, you enthusiastically state that, "Evolution is dynamic and very creative." I've been asking people on this site (and at fine academic institutes) for experimental data showing evolution creating a "very creative" new kind of animal. Do you have any examples for me?”

New species have been created in labs, and new species have been seen to develop in nature, but I doubt that any of these particular new species could be considered to be “very creative” in themselves. By far the most creative species now existing seems to be Homo sapiens. It took evolution billions of years to come up with us. We have quite a bit of information to indicate how we came to be, although we are not about to create advanced versions of ourselves just yet (but we probably will eventually).

“Modern medicine is decreasing human fitness (you state "...improve and increase our capabilities.") by allowing deleterious mutations to continue within the gene population. For example, retinoblastoma used to be nearly 100% fatal. Modern medicine can quickly "cure" it, but survivors pass it along to their children.Q”

Human life is incredibly complex. Modern medicine, like many aspects of our culture, is filled with pros and cons. You point out one negative aspect of modern medicine. There are probably thousands more such examples, but also at least as many examples of positive affects of modern medicine – one being that “retinoblastoma” can now be medically countered. But these are details.

People are living increasingly longer. Technological knowledge and capabilities are increasing at ever accelerating rates. But the world population is growing to a point that our life sustaining environment and resources are under threat. Advancement brings new problems. Will humanity have the intelligence and wisdom to solve them?

Josh, I've missed our debate.

You state:
"To be precise, Watson may have been fired for making non-PC racially charge evolutionary statements, but he was not defended by scientists because his statements went against the scientific evidence."

What "scientific evidence" goes against Watson's assertion that populations separated for long time periods would evolve at the exact same intellectual capacity rate? Geographic separation is a key component of the common allopatric speciation belief.

jtwitten's picture
What "scientific evidence" goes against Watson's assertion that
populations separated for long time periods would evolve at the exact
same intellectual capacity rate? Geographic separation is a key
component of the common allopatric speciation belief.

Watson did not assert that separated population might have different intellectual capacity.  He asserted that Africans have less intellectual capacity than Europeans.  Technically, since he is making a positive assertion, he is responsible for demonstrating the evidence.  Although there are studies showing racial difference in IQ, these studies are riddled with problems.  In short, these studies do not support a conclusion that IQs differ between racial groups.  Therefore, we must default to the statistical null hypothesis that there is no difference.

The genetic evidence does not support the concept that human populations are isolated from each other.  There are certainly genetic differences that correlate with geographic location, but these are completely consistent with a neutral diffusion model (i.e., the differences are due to the distance because the likelihood of two people mating is, in part and at a very practical level, dependent on proximity).  Off the top of my head, see Novembre et al 2008 in Science (I think, like I said, top of head sans reference) for an example in Europe. 

Watson also supported his claims with entirely anecdotal claims about stereotypical negative experiences of working with individuals of African descent.

Josh, thank you for the feedback.

You state:
"It is not possible to construct a narrative describing the sequential events that occurred, because the evidence of those events no longer exists." You are the first person on this site to simply admit that there is no evidence, and no way to determine the evidence.

You state:
"Once chemical replicators existed, no additions to the standard forces of evolutionary theory are necessary to explain current observations." There is no experimental data showing successive steps of chemical evolution leading to "current observations" of even a single "simple" cell. This is another "just so" story.

Experimental data exists proving that mutations plus natural selection can change one type of animal into a new kind of animal (e.g. changing a dog into an animal that isn't a dog). True or False? You eloquently dodged the question last time.

Regarding your question on genetic drift and decreased heterozygosity, see http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIID2Genesdrift.shtml for a succinct review.

jtwitten's picture
"It is not possible to construct a narrative describing the sequential
events that occurred, because the evidence of those events no longer
exists." You are the first person on this site to simply admit that
there is no evidence, and no way to determine the evidence.

I did not say that there is no evidence.  Rob, this is where we need to be clear.  My statement is that the evidence that you require to be convinced (i.e., that which is necessary to build a narrative from the origin of life to now with each step completely proven) no longer exists and it would be ridiculous to think that it would. 

I instead apply the scientific method.  The evidence that does exist (e.g., fossil record, DNA, etc.) is consistent with the theory of evolution.  It is not consistent with alternative theories.  Therefore, I accept the theory of evolution over other theories. 

Finally, the scientific method requires that one reject supernatural causes, as they cannot be experimentally tested.  To accept anything other than testable, natural hypotheses would negate the utility of the scientific method.

"Once chemical replicators existed, no additions to the standard forces
of evolutionary theory are necessary to explain current observations."
There is no experimental data showing successive steps of chemical
evolution leading to "current observations" of even a single "simple"
cell. This is another "just so" story.

I don't think you know what a "just so" story is.  Again, you are insisting on a narrative, which really is just a near infinite collection of "just so" stories.  Evolutionary theory is consistent with progressing from a chemical replicator to current levels of complexity.  The ability to perfectly describe every historical step is not relevant.

Do you need to know every historical event in a patient's condition in order to make a diagnosis?

On heterozygosity, I completely understand that drift reduces variation.  As does selection.  Migration and mutation increase variation.  So, over time, heterozygosity does not necessarily perpetually decrease.  Indeed, populations under selection can reach something called mutation-selection balance where the heterozygosity no loner declines.  My question was where is your evidence for all the ancestral heterozygosity in the past that you think has been steadily decreasing.

On the new animal question, I was not dodging, I was being precise.  You will find that I am annoying pedantic on definitions.  Experiment and observation have seen divergence between populations.  Species is not a precise term.  So, I need to know what degree of divergence you are implying by the word "kind".

Rob, the simple fact is that you are (intentionally or not) demanding a level of evidence that is both impossible and unnecessary.  As such, it will be impossible to convince you.  At least you are consistent in that.

So...

"Scientists" want to prove something can be produced by chance. So they use laboratories, where human beings perform very specific, non-chance actions.

I am a teacher of math myself, and I grew up in a family of university professors, in physics and in logic. If I am not mistaken, a scientist in laboratory can prove something can be produced by a scientist, in a laboratory. How did you all make the logical connection from that to "something can be produced by chance"?

Gerhard Adam's picture
By that logic there can be no such thing as probability theory, since by your definition there can be no probability experiments that are intentional.

Oh, absolutely not. There can be such thing as probability THEORY. There can't be such thing as PROVED probability laws.

In the same way, all the lab experiments to prove evolution by chance only prove that there is such a thing as evolutionary THEORY - in the minds of evolutionists, that is. But they don't prove it. They only prove something can be created in a laboratory, which is not exactly the definition of evolution, last time I checked.

Gerhard Adam's picture
You're splitting hairs.  By making such a suggestion you're creating a "straw man" argument because something isn't completely deterministic or reductionist.  It's an artificial construct to suggest that unless every specific event can be absolutely witnessed then it must not exist.  Every experiment is necessarily a subset of real world operation to determine whether the phenomenon being examined can be isolated and analyzed.  Even in cases where an absolute explanation isn't available (yet), such as with gravity, it doesn't render the findings invalid simply because we haven't measured the "forces" between every planet and star. 

The purpose of the experiments with origins of life are to determine whether certain ideas are plausible and could lead to a possible explanation of how life originated.  No one is suggesting that the specific mechanisms employed in such experiments are absolute, however without such experiments it would render any possible explanation forever speculative.

Splitting hairs? Since when the difference between "theory" and "proof" is "splitting hairs"? Then why write the above article at all? Why try to prove anything? You have a theory, therefore it is true, therefore anyone who is pointing to the difference between "theory" and "proof" is "splitting hairs."

Gravity is not a good example for you. Gravity exists today. Any experiment with gravity uses the REAL conditions - gravity itself. You can observe it on earth, and you can observe the planets and stars interact.

Experiments with origins of life are always speculative. The speculate about everything. The real conditions are not observable, they are ASSUMED. The primitive environment is ASSUMED. The original chemical content of the air is ASSUMED. The time-frame is ASSUMED. Everything is ASSUMED, and it is assumed in such a way as to increase the odds for a certain solution. Eventually, with every single thing assumed in favor of a certain solution, the scientist "proves" the odds are reasonably high. That's the very nature of the experiments "proving" evolution.

So yes, you say: "without such experiments it would render any possible explanation forever speculative." But is it different WITH such experiments? No. The "possible explanations" are still speculative as long as the conditions are speculative and ASSUMED. Nothing is proved except that a scientist in a laboratory can produce certain organic materials from other organic materials. Well, we knew that, didn't we? Any moonshiner can do the same. But have we really proved anything about a blind, mindless, random process of evolution?

Gerhard Adam's picture
No one is suggesting that the specific process employed in a laboratory experiment is the origin of life.  You've arbitrarily extended the argument from evolution TO the origin of life which isn't part of evolution theory.

Secondly, the experiments done in laboratories are intended to determine whether such processes can occur by chance and by creating the artificial circumstances to simulate what conditions may have been like on earth.  No one has ever suggested that this is absolutely true, nor that it constitutes proof of anything that actually occurred.

That's why this is a "straw man" argument, because you're the only one asserting that this is being presented as proof.  Experiments are only trying to determine what is possible and how it might occur.

So you basically agree with me. The experiments in a laboratory are intended to determine whether a process chosen by a scientist to re-create - on conditions that "MAY have been like on earth" - can really be re-created. But they don't prove anything nor disprove anything outside of it. Evolution can not be proved nor disproved. It is just ASSUMED.

Of course, your statement that "origin of life isn't part of evolution theory" is interesting. How was Darwin's book titled? "The ORIGIN of Species"! And what is the article above talking about? The beginning of life! The formation of elements of life!

So, evolution is not really about origin of life, huh. What is it about then?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Origin of life is about the processes that may have given rise to life.  Evolution is about the processes via natural selection that gave rise to species.  As I said before, you're simply trying to fabricate straw man arguments, despite the fact that you have no basis for doing so.

It's obvious that you are peddling some sort of agenda, but your criticism of the science is completely without merit.

Jeff Sherry's picture
Bo, I guess I'm not following your logic or argument very well. I don't see where evolution is just assumed.  Either there were natural processes that led to life appearing on the Earth or there wasn't. It follows that the Earth is older than 10,000 years. Again the Earth formed from natural processes or not.  Are fossils the remains of previous generations of life on Earth?

If I reject evolution I might as well reject the other sciences as well. Bo what are you putting forth as an explanation for how life got here?

So, Gerhard, are you saying that evolution doesn't talk about origin of life? Think twice before you answer the question; and you may want to consult with evolutionists. May be the large majority of them - about 100% - would disagree with you, me thinks.

My "criticism of science"? When did I criticize science? I pointed to the obvious inconsistency in the author's logical construct. Why would that be considered "criticism of science"?

Jeff, evolution is just assumed because it has never been observed, and the conditions for it have never been observed. It is an artificial theoretical construct, never observed and never observable. What exactly in my logic is it that you can't follow?

Are "natural processes" the only possible explanation for the origins of life? Are we open-minded enough to accept alternative explanations? Are we willing to apply Occam's razor to the theories of the origin and just accept the simpler one of them?

If you reject evolution you might reject other sciences? What do you mean? Evolution is not a "science" in any accepted meaning of the word. It is only a THEORY, remember? Biology is science, physics is science, chemistry is science, geology is science: they are not THEORIES, they are sciences. Evolution is only a THEORY, and by the way, ONE OF THE MANY theories within those sciences. So rejecting evolution is not "rejecting science," it is only acting within the field of science on the basis of supporting evidence or the lack thereof.

Jeff Sherry's picture
Bo, what are the alternate explanations for life on Earth? Evolution is science. What are you stating that is unobservable in evolution? 

Show me the alternatives. Are you willing to take a shave to your theories?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Sorry, but you clearly misunderstand the nature of theory and the role that it plays.  In addition, you clearly are confusing evolution with origins of life issues.  Despite your earlier claim, Darwin did not argue about origins of life, but rather origins of species (you should probably read it).

Your assertions about what is science is, is confused regarding what constitutes theories versus proofs.  You are attempting to suggest that evolution is only a hypothesis rather than a theory. 

Your concept of observation is also flawed since a great deal of technology that exists consists of phenomenon that can not be observed although it was developed from scientific theories.  So despite your desire that we should approach this with an "open mind", you know that you have no such intention since you're not proposing an alternative scientific theory, but reverting directly back into superstition.  If I'm wrong, then what is your alternative view?

Jeff, if you don't know what the alternative explanations are, then may be you need to first educate yourself and then participate in a discussion. It may help if you just read the article above. The author mentions the alternatives and seems to accept them as legitimate, seeing that he proposes counter-explanations to them. So I propose that you first read before your write.

Also, you didn't answer my epistemological questions about what we accept with an open mind and what not. Before we talk about knowledge, we should decide what "knowledge" really means.

You may want to believe that evolution is a science, this is your right. Dictionaries and scientists keep calling it THEORY. Why? Because science is OBSERVABLE facts. Theory is EXPLANATION of the observations.

Gerhard, Darwin did not argue about origins of life? Well, I must say you are wrong here. Here is a quote from him in a letter to a friend, commenting on his own book:

"But if (and oh! what a big if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity etc., present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes."

So, Gerhard, Darwin didn't argue about origins of life? Really?

Oh, you need to read the article above. The author mentions the alternative views.

Jeff Sherry's picture
Well Bo, I haven't been disappointed in your knowledge base. You keep stating there are alternative explanations, yet you don't state what they are. I was actually hoping you could extend my knowledge. I am certainly glad you speak from lofty heights of education and open mindedness in extending what your alternates are.

Again I await your learned knowledge of your alternatives to evolution. You aren't going to feed me aig propaganda are you? I promise I won't move my lips when I read your next post.


Gerhard Adam's picture
Darwin did not argue about the origins of life.  While he may have speculated about them in correspondence, much like anyone might, it was never included nor offered up as a theory in any form.

In any case, you obviously have some point you're trying to make, so what is your alternate explanation for evolution and/or the origins of life?  Why be coy about it?

BTW, I'm going to be really disappointed if your only answer is to advance another fairy story or magical tale.




Jeff and Gerhard, I don't state what the alternative explanations are? Didn't I suggest that you two read the article above? Let me check again, I may have forgotten. Yes, right there, I really did suggest it! Hmmm, if you don't read what I write, I must say the problem lies not with me. Seems to me you two are desperately trying to not notice what I write, or may be there is another problem?

Okay, let's try it again, it is not that hard. Just read what the article above says. The first two paragraphs would suffice if longer reading is beyond your abilities. The author states at the very beginning that he has opponents and he is arguing against them. Who are his opponents?

Darwin did not argue about the origins of life, he may have speculated about them in correspondence? I can agree with that statement. In fact, I must say, all evolutionists only speculate about the origins of life, they never prove anything. Talk about "fairy stories" and "magical tales." Honestly, they also speculate about origins of species because they have never observed evolution from one species into another. So, however much you may try to re-define evolution to save it from criticism, it still makes no sense.

So, Jeff and Gerhard, are we open minded enough to accept the possibility for alternative explanations, or are we going to be worse than the retrograde clerics of the Middle Ages who wouldn't accept any opinion but their own? Calling everything we disagree with, "propaganda," "fairy tales," "magic" - is this intellectual honesty, or is this a sign of malice and prejudice?

Gerhard Adam's picture
That's what I thought.  Criticism, but no alternative explanations.  Your argument is meaningless since your argument about observation means that there can ultimately be no science since (1) a significant number of events can never be directly observed, and (2) events that are observed will usually contain only a subset of all possible samples since that can never be complete.

Unfortunately you've already made plain that there is no evidence that would ever be sufficient to convince you, since you intentionally seem to ignore everything that has been observed and recorded. 

As I thought, you're simply attempting to argue from the Intelligent Design perspective which is another meaningless viewpoint.  Personally I couldn't care less what you choose to believe, but please don't try and suggest that there's anything remotely scientific about your ideas.  You want to criticize scientific processes, but you offer nothing in return except more wild conjecture which has even more speculation about it than your worst allegations against scientific hypothesis.

Whatever you claim science has failed to observe, I suspect that's not nearly as little as what has been observed regarding your alternate explanation.

Fred Pauser's picture
Bo…

Dictionaries and scientists keep calling it THEORY. Why? Because science is OBSERVABLE facts. Theory is EXPLANATION of the observations.

Science seeks to explain the natural world, and uses methods designed to eliminate bias to the greatest extent possible. The word “theory” as used in science does not mean hunch or unverified opinion – that is only the layman’s meaning of the word. The meaning in science is very different. In order for a concept to be elevated to the level a scientific theory, it must be found to successfully explain a broad set of factual data and observations. It does this in part by proving to be of predictive value. The Theory of Evolution has passed countless tests and has been greatly reinforced by vast evidence from the field of genetics. “In fact,” the evidence in support of the evolution of species is overwhelming!

In fact, I must say, all evolutionists only speculate about the origins of life, they never prove anything.

Yes, scientists (who usually happen to be evolutionists), do speculate and hypothesize about the origin of life. So far they have gathered many indications the life probably evolved spontaneously from matter. As yet this in not “proven,” but scientists are getting closer.

As Gerhard pointed out, the evolution of species as expounded by Darwin, does not include the origin of life itself. The former is very well established; the latter is still hypothetical.

It seems apparent that you are a Christian “Intelligent Design” advocate. If so, you believe that God created each species fully formed from scratch, all appearing from the beginning pretty much as they appear today (although you make allowance for so-called “microevolution,” since it is irrefutable that many species have evolved to some extent).

Have you considered that a really intelligent God may have designed the universe and the laws of nature in such a way that life and various life forms could have evolved spontaneously over time as per Darwin’s findings??? For one thing, that would eliminate the need to do all sorts of mental gymnastics in the attempt to reconcile the Bible with what the evidence actually shows about nature. The Christian God poofed everything into existence very quickly, and then did a lot of intervening and finagling of things. Which God seems the more intelligent, the one I suggest, or the Christian version?

In my study of religion and science I found that the the E=MC2 could have an inverse. Theoretically by the inverse of the formula if you had enough energy you should be able to create matter. Now the bible is not a science book as I have said previously. If you have the gumption look at Isaiah 40:26. Einstein did not discover his formula until recently in the human time line. This is one whale of a coincidence that may explain how the universe was put together.

Also, by observing explosions of massive amounts of energy (like the A-BOMB), never to these explosions produce organized systems. To the contrary they produce chaotic mess. Has science explained how any trigger that could produce enough energy and subsequently matter be controlled such that we have what we have order in the cosmos?

Gerhard Adam's picture
What does Isaiah 40:26 have to do with anything?  It's simply a passage that asks who created all the stars.

Your comparison to releasing massive amounts of energy as in an atomic bomb are seriously flawed.  In the first place, the "chaotic mess" you're referring to is that organized structures that it interacts with.  As for the beginnings of the universe, I refer you to Johannes Koelman's piece.


This is relevant because it discloses a fact that I think you might have missed. It said that God has abundant power. Some translations render this verse dynamic energy, others mighty power, still it carries the same thought. The correlation between the designer of the stars and great power provides a general explanation that corresponds to the inverse of Einsteins findings in relationship of energy and matter.

My point is that this passage existed many centuries prior to the discovery of the relationship of energy and matter. Therefore, the bible does seem to provide information that confirms that in order for a creator to be a creator he would have to have abundant even dynamic energy.

Gerhard Adam's picture
26 Lift your eyes and look to the heavens:
       Who created all these?
       He who brings out the starry host one by one,
       and calls them each by name.
       Because of his great power and mighty strength,
       not one of them is missing.


I think you're seriously stretching the meaning in equating power and strength as being synonymous with energy.

Is it a stretch? I dont think I can agree with that comment at all. Any number of translations render the verse in nearly the same way, still conveying the thought that a creator would have to have great power and strength in order to be a creator. Again, all I am saying is that abundant power would have to be a charistic of a creator and that charistic is confirmed in scripture and agrees with the scientific relationship between energy and matter.

Some other scriptures that I have found in my research are found at Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7. Keep in mind that these scriptures were written several thousand years before Columbus and before science confirmed the general shape of the earth. Back then "science" maintained that the earth was flat and was supported by elephants on the back of a large sea turtle. True, it was before the scientific method and the enlightenment, but it was still the best man could come up with in challenge to scripture and intellegent design. Surely you would have to admit that it is a profound coinsidence in the choice of words. And these words were not "added" based on current knowlege. These were the original hebrew words transladed to their english counter parts. I'll leave it to you to make up your own mind. For me this is pretty concrete. If there is a designer of the universe and if there is a powerful individual out there and if the bible is his communication with us, it does stand to reason that he would want us to have a correct, basic, understanding of his work. So far in my study I have not found anything in science to unseat that notion.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Back then "science" maintained that the earth was flat and was supported by elephants on the back of a large sea turtle.

That's simply nonsense.  Such beliefs may have existed in the general populace, but most assuredly, in the parts of the world that shared such a view, they were not perpetrated by "scientists" of any stripe.

Hey, I agree with you that it is nonsense. However, that is what the wise men, people of academia thought 3,000 years ago. These are individuals that would equate to modern-day scientists, men of knowledge, etc.. I did qualify that statement with the fact that this belief was widely taught before the scientific method was derived.

Dear Sir,

if i am to meet a friend for tea today at 8pm, lets look at the posibility of this event hapening and not happening. the weather might change, i might die, get hit by a car on the way same could hapen to my friend so on and so on endless posibilities as to if it is going to hapen or not. but we will meet if all these uncontrolable facores are favorable to us.
but we have no controle over these factores right ? then why did i meet with my friend how did so many factores subsided .... :-)

thank you

Gerhard Adam's picture
...then why did i meet with my friend how did so many factores subsided...

These aren't random events.  You're suggesting that all of the possibilities (i.e. car accident, etc.) are simply random.  However, they aren't.  You can watch for traffic and minimize the odds of an accident.  You will certainly react to the weather, but it is predictable within a short time range.  The possibilities are NOT endless.  They are very specific, and most are controllable to an extent.

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