But over time two important things happened that should have killed religion; the world got 'smaller' in the sense that a lot more information about people and cultures became available and science was able to explain a much larger, very fundamental and far-reaching set of things about the world in terms of natural laws.
Yet religion die not die, as it was predicted it must. Nietzsche could metaphor like nobody's business but he is most certainly dead and religion is most certainly not and every time I hear one of his descendants, like postmodernists, speak I want to reach for a pistol - but even Nietzsche in the beginning was downright optimistic about religion's future compared to other European philosophers of his day and since.
Yet it's still here. With knowledge of multiple faiths, which would certainly seem to cast doubt on the supremacy, and thus the value, of any particular one, and the encroachment of science in explaining the natural world, religon should have become a quaint anachronism, yet it has not.
The "Secular Thesis" has failed, as phrased by McGill University professor emeritus of political science and philosophy Charles Taylor. The encroachment of the 'secular' age did not stamp out belief as a source of meaning and morality and instead it simply (the wrong word, I know, since the whole thing is quite complicated) changed the conditions of that belief.
It isn't moral at all, argues cultural luminaries such as Elton John, who said, "I would ban religion completely. It turns people into hateful lemmings, and it's not really compassionate."
How can the same thing have such different meanings to people who consider themselves truly compassionate and concerned about others?
Perhaps it is because religion in society is a lot more nuanced and much less shallow than the fringes of the science vs. religion or intelligent vs.immature camps want to believe. Certainly religion brings on its own public relations problems. Catholics forgiving pederasts, for example, and giving them multiple opportunities for atonement has led to serious credibility issues and no small amount of financial impact but an inclusive church that believes in spiritual rehabilitation is expected to try and heal its own - it's still a bad idea to send them off to other areas of the country or attempt to cover up the problem.
It isn't just Christianity suffering from bad public image. Muslims who circle the wagons around terrorists, imprison homosexuals or publicly stone rape victims aren't adding any credibility to their denomination either.
Anti-religious zealots have their own credibility gaps. They tend to slap some gnostic fanaticism label on everyone religious, which is in denial of the obvious benefits of a liturgical culture. There's a great deal of post-modern rationalization that goes on to explain the beneficial aspects of religion in a way that denies religion any credit. That framing by the atheist contingent is no different than ministers who can find no wrong in religion and they paint overwhelming denial of evolution by evangelicals as a religious ignorance problem, which is hardly the case.
Yet outside the fringes of the culture war, science has gained a lot of ground but religion has held its own. In AAAS surveys, 40% of scientists believed in God in 1933. 70 years later, the result was basically identical, a somewhat surprising statistic given the empirical nature of science. How is that possible if science is the enemy of religion?
It remains that religion does have some positive benefits, despite what Elton John thinks. If there's a problem in a third world country, it is primarily religious groups who put feet on the ground trying to help - and they do so even when there are no headlines. I don't recall the last time an organized atheist group went into a prison to try and rehabilitate people, though they are quite good about protesting if someone innocent is in jail whereas religious people tend to be in favor of more jails. Protesting doesn't involve having to step foot inside prisons, though. Atheists do a great deal for their fellow man indirectly, through awareness and policy efforts, but religious people do more for non-political causes in extremely dangerous conditions and it rarely gets covered by the New York Times.
Religion also partly maintains a place in society because even for non-believers, religion is fascinating. Recently academic researchers have tackled issues like 'do prayers get answered?', religious disparities in prostate cancer, chicken versus egg debates like did religion codify morality or did morality create religion? and even do religious people do more for charity?
They have researched the neuropsychological core of selflessness which, oddly, is at the core of every major religion in the world. Religion in medical care had been pushed to the back for some time but recent studies suggest that the brain's healing power, including when religiously motivated, can work 'miracles', if we can use that term.
Obviously there is some bad correlation that occurs too. Are religious people more likely to be faithful? Yes, it turns out, though religion may not be the reason. Other studies tackle how religion is ironically a product of evolution.
So why does religion still exist at all today, much less remain vibrant and active in a scientifically astute society? After 1,000 words I am no closer to an answer because it's too big an issue - and I know that's sort of a copout. But I know what isn't an answer; religious people are not just stupid across the board any more than atheists are immoral bigots. There are complex issues involved and over time we will converge on answers about biological processes but, like any equation with multiple variables, there won't be a solution that satisfies everyone. The nature of faith will always be in defiance of what we can understand today.
However, evolutionary biologists can take comfort that neuroscientists will soon be ground zero in the science versus religion culture wars because they are trying to close in on how the brain responds to belief and then eventually 'the soul' - something people of faith might think should be left alone.
Comments
As for the chicken and egg one, which came first, morality or religion, I don't think there's much doubt that morality preceded religion. I think it was Richard Leakey who put the view that the sharing of food among our earliest ancestors was the foundation of our idea of justice, and Peter Kropotkin dealt with the matter at length in his valuable work Ethics. From memory he even gave evidence that church leaders conceded that morality came first. After all, the term is derived from "mores", being social standards, prohibitions and etiquette, not religious standards.
I enjoyed the article that Hank wrote as well as most of the comments. Hank please know that I do not find your article offensive but wonderful food for thought. I know that if God is indeed truth then truth will win out and we will find that science will be the proof of his existence.
To some people it gives a greater sense of satisfaction and involvement I guess.
Even the most die hard evolutionary biologist 'crusader' for atheism is essentially reifying the processes of science, and that 'no doubt' is because of cognitive necessity dictating our modes of expression.
There are unknowables, and there will remain unknowables because we cannot but think in the ways we do, and we cannot think outside of them either. Ask any fish what lies beyond the ocean ....
We can dress these great ineffables up in majesty and awe, pomp and ceremonial, and that is what humans tend to do, ask the anthhropologist, the psychologist and the sociologist (you'll get a better answer than asking a fish anyhow). The only question is whether we really have any choice in the matter since free will is as big a problem to the religious thinker as it is to the secular.
Did God tell me to write that? Or a collection of nerve impulses, acting upon incredibly complex stimuli governed by a lifetime of interaction with other processes of that ilk, all of which could be extrapolated into some 'total perspective vortex'?
I don't know, I only followed the dictates and consequences of being in front of my computer at this time and responding in the fashion I just did. Then maybe I just dreamed it all for you see I am as much a fan of Bishop Berkeley as I am of the HHGTTG :)
We might flatter ourselves that we are the pinnacle of achievement in terms of a universal epistemology but are we?
Any individual can only reason with the tools that they are given, and the knowlege they have available, and if you are born into a society where schooling is rare because of economic disadvantage then you will continue to reason as those around you reason.
My mum used to think that thunder was the noise that two rainclouds made when they bump into each other. It is a hypothesis nonetheless informed by what she had available to her in default of the education I have had available to me. Her formal schooling ended at age 15 and my Dad's at age 12
Quite apart from the fact that we are not perfect logic machines, it takes a lot of training to get beyond the cognitive flaws we all have and still keep an open mind.
Everything lives and then at some time dies. There is no fear unless you perhaps have anticipation of what you might think of as an untimely death, or maybe a very painful one. I am a person who has an ailment that creates pain daily and I am not alone. I certainly am not afraid of death or that great unknown. If it were not for the fact that I might share or help someone, or that it would be against all that I believe in, I would indeed go quietly into the night with much relief.
Many years ago I agreed to go into that dreaded of all places, a church. Something I would never do unless as a favor to a loved one. I had an experience. It is a very personal and very cherished one. It has been a wonderful comfort to me now and I am so very grateful that my sister in law asked me to go with her. I will say that there have been many times over the years where I experienced the pomp you mentioned. The best experiences are ones where I have been alone. I am sorry to disagree (however much I enjoy a good debate) with those who declare that "there is no God or God's or even higher powers, depending on how politically correct one wants to be.
As I said I did enjoy your comments and love your sense of humor.
Karen Simon
One might as well ask why does figurative art persist in the face of photography? To some people it gives a greater sense of satisfaction and involvement I guess.
This is a fantastic analogy, Laurence, and captures a very complex issue without being judgmental. Reminds me of a great quote by hockey player/coach Fred Shero: "It's like ham and eggs. The chicken makes a contribution, but the pig, he makes a commitment."
Btw,studies with heart attack patients showed that the ones being prayed for had worse outcomes.
And why is there still religion?You are begging the question,the answer is not "because it gives us morals,makes us feel warm and fuzzy and jebus died for you",its a weakness of the human brain,our brain just loves superstition.
We'll get over it eventually.
The concept of a god or gods, even though your post is leaning towards the idea of one, certainly doesn't answer any of the mysteries of life, and a divine hand has always left much to much more to question than it ever resolved. The question, "If there is a loving god, then why does suffering exist?" springs to mind.
Nobody but a perhaps few crackpots have ever predicted that religion MUST die. Maybe Elton John if you stretch. Certainly not Nietzsche. So I'm not sure where you got that from. It might be a nicer place without religion, but we'll never really know. I'm not sure I'd base my thesis on what Elton John has to say on the matter.
And what are some of the obvious benefits of liturgical culture? Aside from nicely colored easter eggs? Lets not put your pederast priests in to the benefits column, they're certainly a part of the liturgical culture.
Did anybody on the science side actually say that science is the enemy of religion? Martin Luther did say that reason is the greatest enemy that faith has, and yes science is based on reason. And yes, if science leads us to poke holes in the fables and myths of the bible, then those holes are still holes. I'm more or less sorry if you find those holes offensive. Science didn't set out to poke holes in your stories. Quite the opposite. Religion is often the enemy of science, trying to shut it down, obfuscate its findings, and deny the facts that are learned and proven by careful method.
There is one point we agree on, that religion and religious behavior is fascinating. But don't mislead your readers. There are no published, peer reviewed papers showing that prayer works, only an opinion paper of an ASU assistant professor. Quite the opposite! In http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html it was cites a study "that patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications". In short, there are no miracles. But I think it is a great thing that people continue to look for them, even though it only to adds to the overwhelming body of evidence that there is actually nothing out there.
But don't mislead your readers. There are no published, peer reviewed
papers showing that prayer works, only an opinion paper of an ASU
assistant professor.
Whether I agree that prayer is a legitimate tool for physicians or not, there are a large number of published, peer-reviewed papers on the influence of prayer in medical settings, so Hank is correct. Check out pubmed and you'll find plenty of examples.
I did see that study and find it ironic that while intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications. There are a number of ways I found research - simply typing intercessory prayer into pubmed led to 76 studies. You can also try other word combinations, like prayer, prayer healing, etc.
Martin Luther did say that reason is the greatest enemy that faith has
Where in the works of Luther (and I’ve read quite a few) is that? I’d like to see it in context. I know that some people are fond of quoting Luther as saying "Reason is the Devil’s whore" but I suspect what he means there is that "Reason" is telling the individual that he/she is too wicked to be saved, and so working to cut them off from hope of salvation. (Again, I haven’t seen that exact phrase in my readings, but I am guessing from his Commentary on Galatians.)
’
Table Talk or Familiar Discourse of Martin Luther. p 164
The Gospels are of course nuanced texts, not intended to be a history, the truth they contain is not intended to be a literal truth of what they had for afters during the last supper, nor an account of the bill and I suspect that Luther's discourses similarly were not intended to be history so much as a polemic, like Cabinet ministers memoirs, always embroidered to reflect the concerns of the present not the period in which the events took place. The communication between the past and the present is always polluted by interference from the noise of hindsight. What then is more important, what Luther actually said on any particular occasion but what his followers believed he said ?
"Here I stand I can do no other", the days when you could nail a thesis to the church door are over, and it's not the Pope you would have to worry about but the Church Estates pursuing a claim for damages to their ancient door if you did. The best alternative we have today is blogging.
And I agree with somnolent aphid that science studies on religion are going to be correlation/causation errors; people who pray might live longer but there are a variety of other factors that may influence that. Ditto with religion and fidelity. That doesn't mean anything within reason that keeps families together is bad, but I agree it's not science.
One thing for sure; neuroscience is not the kind of cutting edge science it needs to be yet (seriously, doing a bunch of fMRIs for every little thing and declaring it a result isn't getting us very far) but it will be. The reasons people do things, religiously or not, may never be quantifiable, but the essence of the soul certainly will be.
Massimo Pigliucci, our philosopher/biologist, is a definite atheist but a special sort of atheist, in that he can make good points about religion and society without being the kind of sanctimonious that hard-core atheists in science sometimes are. Here he is on Buddhism and science, human nature, the evolution of religion and superstition.
Even better, thanks to this article and Becky Jungbauer, Fred Schero has become one of my favorite coaches!
It is true that Neuroscience has a long way to go yet before it becomes the uber science, but evolutionary biology can hardly be termed the uber science either. Despite the inroads it has made into sociology, anthropology and so forth it is a metanarrative at best. The mechanics belong properly to the geneticists, for whom the uber science would be chemistry, or perhaps beyond that theoretical physics. The physicists in turn would be nowhere without the inner mathemetical "priesthood" who for the most part have a quasi religious attachment to platonism, which brings one full circle back to the birth of science as we know it which followed one particular fork after the split between natural, and moral philosophy.
Neuroscience may ultimately be able to crack the mechanics of how we think, and even why we think the way we do, but it can never get to the bottom of why we think at all. Evolutionary biologists may think they have the answer to that question by explaining how consciousness could give an evolutionary advantage, but then to explain what conscisousness is devolves back into the neuroscientist's court. (not to leave out the AI philosophers) It all seems to be a closed system from which we cannot escape.
If anyone has ever waded through Roger Penrose's "Emporers new mind" or Kurt Godel must sometimes wonder whether they are not the twentieth century equivalents of Hildegard of Bingen.
As for Hildegard, one does not have to be a believer to enjoy liturgical music, or religious art in any form. The determinists can say. (and I do not disbelieve them) that her work stems from the interface of medieval philosophy with her personal experience of migraine. I have had the local neurologist poking around inside my head looking for my own aura's with an MRI but did he find them? When you look at the world through the shimmering haze of a migraine aura, even shorn of any socio/cultural mystical overlay, it does make you think about the boundaries of what is real, and how much you can ever trust your perceptions to measure anything.
When you read George Berkeleys critique of Newtonian optics, the first work to my knowledge that deals with the role of neurology in vision, you can't help wondering between Newton and he, who was the more rational? For if anyone cares to read about the other side of Newton, they will realise that he was well "away with the pixies" in a metaphysical realm of his own despite his posthumous scientific "canonisation"
Atheist or priest, sinner or saint. One cannot help but express a sense of awe with the notion that stars
had to be born and to die in order for us to be here exhanging electrons in the blogosphere.
As I noted, 40% of scientists are religious and a large number are neutral. The truly vocal radical fringes in science speak the loudest against religion just like militant kooks in American religion insist that 'alternatives' (but only Christian ones) be taught in science classes. If science gets to be taught in church, I guess it would make sense, but I think instead both sides should stop worrying about the small groups on the other side who refuse to accept each other and instead focus on making the world a better place.
Below are just two extracts from major educational resources, as found on “Google Books.”
A search of the words ‘science’ and ‘Bible’ in the Google search box will pull up many relevant passages, of which I submit a few…
Item #1: New Jersey Public Schools...
"HINTS ON A SYSTEM POPULAR EDUCATION:
ADDRESSED TO R. S. FIELD, ESQ.
CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION IN THE LEGISLATURE OF NEW JERSEY;
AND TO THE REV. A. B. DOD,
PROFESSOR OF MATHEMATICS IN THE COLLEGE OF NEW JERSEY.
BY E. C. WINES,
LATE PRINCIPAL OF THE EDGEHILL SCHOOL.
PHILADELPHIA:"
HOGAN AND THOMPSON, 1838.
“Pour the light of science into the minds of the whole community, and imbue them early with the principles of religion, and more than one-half of those edifices [prisons] which are now devoted to the reception of convicts and paupers, might be either pulled down, or devoted to some purpose… pg. 68.
“It has already been shown that popular education, in order to be of any substantial value, must teach the evidences on which the religion of the Bible rests” ... pg. 240.
Item #2: New York Public Schools...
"First Principles of Popular Education and Public Instruction, By S.S. Randall, Superintendent of the Public Schools of the City of New York." 1868
“The times in which we live, too, and the spirit of the age in which our lots have been cast, are fertile in great events—great discoveries in science “ ...pg. 203.
“The imperishable tablets of the Christian faith can never be marred or dimmed by contact with true science, sound philosophy, and advancing civilization” ...pg. 210.
Google has hundreds more similar listings...
I have perused hundreds of period relative titles in private collections, and at certain Princeton libraries, and can state that a view of 'science' and 'faith' that were at odds, or even cancelled each other out as being relevant to this world, and the 'unseen world' just did not exist. Harvard, Yale, Princeton &c... these schools of Theology were the solid supporters of science. In fact, many times the leading Math and Science professors also were leading Theology teachers.
It is our last few generations that has moved to an irrational concept of the Science/Faith relationship.
Dr. Lee Silver, in the Princeton Spectator sums up the present dilemma:
"In the sense of religion meaning “Is there something beyond humanity?” — that’s what I think about all the time. "
http://www.princeton.edu/~spectatr/vol4/16feb99/int.html
I have learned some great science from reading Dr. Silver's books...quite thrilling stuff, as he unveils natural mysteries, and my thanks go to him in explaining a significant part what the Supreme Architect has made!!
The earlier Princeton men, however, taught about having access to both the 'seen' world, and the 'unseen' world...
with the Bible containing the "Mystery" ( ex. Colossians 1-2 ) which permits the means of entry to the transcendent dimension...
Any thoughts?
As FrMatt says below, the holistic car is sexy to most people, not the transmission fluid and the type of metal in it, and so it goes with nature. But without a centuries-long chain of materials science and engineering and mechanics there is no car to appreciate in whole form. No one appreciates the beauty of stars like astronomers but they still want to understand them.
On your point about acceptance of science in schools, you're taking a few examples and extrapolating them out to the nation. Education is done at the local level and common descent was not commonly taught. In the 1925 Scopes trial, the ACLU did not send in Clarence Darrow because science was the front runner, they needed a constitutional win (and didn't get it) because TN was just one instance of states not allowing any teaching that says man was a product of evolution.
Obviously that got national attention because it was a bizarre case, and that's also why the TN Supreme Court threw it out, but in a real sense a small group of religious people promoted evolution by being irrational about teaching science back then.
Get over yourselves.
Now, granted, people point to the good works that religious organizations do, as well as the evils that come out of them. Certainly religion in the past, and even still in some areas of the world, do abhorrent things in the name of their faith or God, and those things are by far detrimental to humanity. How is this any different from humanity as a whole? Would eliminating religion somehow improve life on this planet in some significant way?
statistics generally offer evidence of widespread adoption of my actions (though maybe not my atheism). lot's of folks drop out of church during college, post-college only to take it up again when they have kids.
that, in a nutshell, is a large part of the reason why "religion still exists" despite it being totally wacky and wrong.
1. to feel connected to something larger than ourselves
2. to feel connected to a community of other people
I participate in a local atheist group as well, and have a lot in common with those folks philosophically, but I haven't really found a deep sense of community there like I have in my UU fellowship. That's not to say that no one finds community as an atheist, but I think it's much easier in a religious context.
I think belief is a natural human function of the mind and soul. So all human beings do it because there are so very many questions that science does not answer for us. The function of belief leads the mind to action (or inaction if that belief is dysfunctional). I would submit that Humans beings live more of their lives in belief than in scientific certitude. The other comment of yours, regarding truth standing the test of science - that's funny. We have a whole generation of young people who are becoming increasingly jaded because we can't tell them if an egg is healthy or not because there are too many conflicting reports. This is popular science but it does show some limitations. I think that many times the complex dynamic context that studies are performed in are not fully understood and are therefore not really true. Mention was made earlier regarding false correlations. There have also been a number of discoveries that were driven by belief, by intuition, and not by mere data.
I agree, but part of the point is that science isn't intended to solve people's problems for them, or tell them how to live. While people may want to extend science beyond that capability, my use of the word "truth" is really intended to indicate whatever the current state of knowledge is (that is logically consistent).
There is no science that can tell people how to live, like any knowledge, it is up to the individual to determine it's appropriateness.
That's why the problem I have with most people is that they are looking for science, government, etc. to solve their problems for them which makes them prone to alot of false starts and abuse (I'm not suggesting that's what religion does).
In fact, part of the power of religion is precisely because it tells people how they should behave, so they don't actually have to figure it out for themselves (which is also the role of tradition and culture).
Cartesian dualism does not really hold up any more, and mind is not, nor I suspect ever was the soul.
The soul stands in relation to ordinary existance in a similar relationship that numbers do.
That is to say one can argue on the one hand that they do not have an inherent existance being merely the artefacts of cognition which we inevitably create from the relationships our perception allows us to recognise.
Or that they have some independent, immaterial, eternal and anergic existence.
Whatever the soul might be, it cannot be temporal, ones soul cannot be constrained by a particular day of the week or time of the month, it has to be the summative entity of ones entire transaction with the material universe in the same way that the divine cannot reckon by time being beyond such concepts. I think the descriptions are probably best left to Boethius and Parmenides for now.
Blog long, and prosper!
Saying that religious organizations still have some sort of positive benefit because they help individuals in third world countries while criticizing "atheistic organizations" for not doing the same thing is a flawed argument and not to mention it's also an argument I've heard used by creationists.
We all know that religious groups go into third world countries to give help, but you cannot ignore their true intentions which is to spread their doctrine. Introduction of a new religion via missionary help certainly has not been a positive; it's caused more conflict! Every one knows that this type of "help" has majorly contributed to the decimation of Native culture/religion and there's countless examples of this! As a whole, the cons of countries receiving help from religious organizations out weighs the pros. Furthermore, religious organizations don't give always fuck about headlines, they just want converts! Converting neophytes is the #1 priority!
Obviously "ideal help" would be from organizations that do not have a religious philosophy behind them. Lack of religion just so happens to be the definition of "atheism." Certainly there are organizations that aren't religiously affiliated that provide help in third world countries. Atheists don't unify and make their own philosophically united organizations, but rather, organizations with no religious affiliation are created.
Also, in order to provide help in third world countries, you need $$$$$$$$. So gee, I wonder why we don't hear specifically about atheist organizations that are unified under that particular viewpoint going into third world countries and helping (or "rehabilitate" criminals). Could it be because atheists don't give a shit about other people in the world? Or perhaps that religious organizations have more funding, support and members?
I do not believe the statement below to be true.
"...it is primarily religious groups who put feet on the ground trying to
help - and they do so even when there are no headlines. I don't recall
the last time an organized atheist group went into a prison to try and
rehabilitate people..."
I also think it is misleading to hold 'an organized atheist group' as the only alternative to religious organizations. Basically all non-religious groups are atheist groups.
By the way. In some countries rehabilitation of prisoners is a built in social service by governments. The state can be humane, just like that.
Also, Laurence's wonderful turn of phrase concerning hindsight is a gem.
Finally, the title - Why Does Religion Still Exist? That little word "still" suggests that Hank is buying, maybe at multiple hand, into Auguste Comte's "law" that society has gone through three phases: Theological, Metaphysical, and Scientific. Such an idea is to me, a priori, somewhat "iffy", in that it has a built-in tendency to flatter Modern Man in the imagination of his heart.
I would say the religions' mission to spread the religion is a good part of the reason they still flourish. Atheism doesn't come attached with such a mission to spread atheism, and thus you don't as many people actively and passionately spreading the atheism view.
Committing science is giving us even more intense feelings for nature. Scientists are in awe every day at work in ways incomprehensible to the religious. I'll be bold and state that out of the 40% of scientists saying they are religious most of them are referring to that awe and wonder with nature rather than anything else.
Yes, non-religious groups do good works, I said that too, but UN-sponsored government programs in third world countries are shockingly laughable because they have layers of procedure and ridiculous bureaucracy that caters to petty dictators. They don't provide anywhere near the help that religious groups do on a real level (i.e., one where supplies don't get carted off by warlords while UN people stand around).
There is no Mother Teresa of atheists, for example.
But you get my point. Religious people responding here are basically being pretty good sports about the knocks on them whereas the atheists are upset that this isn't just religion-bashing. That was my point in writing; religion still exists, when it probably shouldn't (Robert Olley's comment on phases is well placed, except I am not speaking on a personal level, I was addressing the beliefs of many in science that we are in a scientific phase distinct from all others) because it does have some value. Obviously I am not knocking atheists either - if 80% of the members here are not atheists I will eat my Scientific Blogging mug - but I would no more want religion to be legislated out of existence than I would want a fundamentalist mullah making people attend religious services.
Sorry, i know this is an internet forum where participators are pushed to be as esoteric and dense as possible.
religion will always put itself at the edge of scientific consensus, it will always claim to be just beyond the realm of science...and once science progresses and it's field increases religion will at first bitterly deny its findings, slowly begin to accept them, and then claim to transcend them; and another generation of pastors, priests, and televangelists will be made into millionaires off their blindly devout flock.
Religion, just over the past decade, has called for nuclear annihilation of enemies, blamed whole segments of the population for terrorist attacks, and basically felt that individual rights should be given over to "their" brand of government. When a political belief such as "liberalism" can be called "evil" and "godless", then the purveyors of such attitudes have opened the attack. There has rarely been as much viciousness regarding people in this country as when it is couched in religious terms. It wouldn't be fair to paint all religions and their believers with such a broad brush, but it is an attitude that has been fostered and encouraged by the fringe elements that we all have to tolerate.
I agree with what you're saying regarding the role and difference between religion and science, and I too am saddened by the radical detour I've seen religion take in the past several decades.
I am sure this was not intended to become so religious a discussion.
Peace be unto you my brother but you are doing yourself no favors. This is a typical misguided attack on science by religion. True, science has produced no saints, but why would it? Saints are theological constructs. And just because you are not aware of selfless scientists only means you are not aware of them, not that they don't exist. Dr. Albert Schweitzer, a humanist, spent most of his life in Africa building hospitals and tending to the sick. Just go down the list of Nobel Prize winners. You'll find more if you like. And secular organizations, doctors without borders, greenpeace, amnesty international, thousands of organizations large and small, all selflessly doing good in this world.
Next, this idea that science cannot explain suffering, cannot reduce suffering is complete hogwash. Improvements in understanding physical pain are made every year. Improved medications and theories of treatment bring relief to millions in mental pain. Improvements in agriculture, medicine, hygiene, civil engineering all the fruits of science and all help improve people's lives immeasurably. Pain of mothers losing children has been reduced in numerous ways, through improvements in theory of childcare, education, contraception, medical care, mental health care, all the fruits of science. Religion doesn't have a lock on "being virtuous in the face of the suffering of this world", so don't go there. Most people just want to do good, just want to do what's right, that is part of the human condition. In fact, I just read an article that a certain drug manufacturer has decided to continue taking a loss on certain medications distributed in Africa because it is the right thing to do... now where did I put that pesky link?
So, don't consider this an attack, just a defense. Save the misinformation Fr Matt. Science has saved far more lives than religion ever will, but we'll leave the souls to you guys.
sa
I think it's safe to say that it's actually BOTH. Often it's precisely various kinds of "pain" that motivate individuals to do something to address the problem (both real and perceived). It is equally true, that compassion is a human virtue and not something that can only be driven by faith.
Where these respective individuals get their motivation or inspiration from is largely immaterial since both are behaving in exactly the manner that human beings should. It is ludicrous to think that scientists are all some "Mr. Spock"-type logical person, any more than it is ludicrous to think that all religious people are all fanatic fundamentalists.
Both groups are attempting to deal with the problems in the world as they perceive them and this is precisely why they seem to collide so often these days. When scientists want to explore the use of stem cells to address medical problems and religion argues that they can't .... we have a collision. When we hear the creationist-evolution arguments, there is another collision.
Despite everything that can go wrong in societies and all the bad things that can happen, it is ironic and sad that the biggest threat to peace and security on this planet is religion and the conflicts it invariably creates.
Your point about compassion is basically true, but it is equally true that too many deaths on this planet are a direct result of religious intolerance and nothing else.
It may have been posited in the initial post that someone at sometime said that religion should have died out by now replaced by rationality and science, but nowhere in my reading of this thread has anyone said religion should actually be abolished... ok, with the exception of the Elton John quote . I think the intial post answered its own question. One reason religion [still] exists is because people in general are just not rational all of the time, nor should they be. I didn't see it as a polemic against religion, so much as asking the initial interesting question timed to coincide with Pâques. But differnent people wear different goggles. We see the same things differently.
I didn't miss your point regarding suffering. I wanted to point out that the fruits of science have greatly reduced the amount of human suffering and loss, a point which you seem to admit. Your point was that suffering exists, obviously true, and that only the compassion found in religion can comfort us and can help us make sense of pain through some sorts of metaphores. It is that second part that is not quite so obvious although it seems to work for some people if not for others. The reduction of suffering vs. making sense of suffering are certainly two separate domains. Science addresses both of them, often compassionately and with fewer metaphores.
When I do have my heart attack, whenever that will be, I am certain I will suffer, as will my family. But I am equally certain that I will look to science, a team of well trained doctors, a good secular hospital, I will thank the hundreds if not thousands of people who selflessly gave of themselves to participate in studies, and I'll take an asprin, all of that before I'll even think of turning to religion. I am a pragmatist. I think you have to look at what actually works most of the time. Best to pray for me after I'm gone when it won't do any harm, if pray you must.
I wish I could relate to your trancsendent experiences. I could never be so skeptical as to take them away from you or explain them to you. Remember science does not play the skeptic. that is a whole different realm of human endeavor. Neuroscientists might try to explain them to you though. I'd watch those guys pretty closely.
I just finished a Margaret Atwood novel, "Oryx and Crake," and Atwood makes a fascinating point toward the end of her book - the engineered humans, who supposedly had all religion engineered out of them, seemed to naturally walk down that path anyway. Whether people agree with religion or not, it is an interesting idea - if we started all over again, wiped the slate clean, would we find ourselves like the ancient Greeks, creating gods to explain the unexplainable?
I haven't met anyone hard core enough to not be concerned about jinxing something. So, I suspect that no matter how many times we could do this over, invariably we'd still be superstitous and ultimately religious. After all, what can you say about a society that still has difficulty putting a 13th floor in a hotel?
What About Norman Borlaug? He only saved more lives than any other person on the face of the planet.
Science has produced no saints that I am aware of - no Peters, no
Francis', no Cathrines, no Damiens (who lived among the lepers), no
Padre Pios, no Mother Teresas. Science inspires few (any?) to give
their lives for their fellow man.
I am aware of some: Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders).
From their charter:
Members undertake to respect their professional code of ethics and to
maintain complete independence from all political, economic, or
religious powers.
See here for examples of the dangers faced by individuals bringing scientific medicine to people in need through a secular organization.
On a slightly different note, sacrificing one's life, although dramatic, is not necessarily the best way to use one's talents to improve the lives of others.
If I have to perform some dangerous task (like rescue work, or combat), I need to have a belief that allows me to overcome my own uncertainties and doubts about what I'm doing. If that means believing that there is a god looking out for me, or simply that you only "die when it's your time", these are important and valuable psychological tools that help me cope. It wouldn't help in the least to be able to calculate the probability of surviving. This applies to a variety of nuanced behaviors whether it be concepts like "hope", or "sorrow", or "ethics", etc. All of these are governed by our beliefs and not science.
Therefore, some belief will always be necessary and operate outside the scope of what science addresses. You might argue that that is the role of philosophy, or culture, and I would agree. However, to my thinking, that's precisely what religion is (when it is removed from it's formalized trappings). It is only when people want to assert the "truth" of their beliefs that they collide with science.
These are things that I think need to be asked; however, you shouldn't just state that Nietzsche and the "Secular Thesis" are wrong. That is something that could take centuries to come around. Studies show that the number of atheists (at least in America) is rising every year, and this appears to be showing a gradual decline of religion (again, in America).
I like how you point out that both sides have their faults, but it's not the faults or benefits that makes religion any more true or false. Just because a study finds Christians to do more chairty work, doesn't mean that Jesus any more plausibly walked the earth than he did before the study was published. Finding comfort in religion is different than believing in it.
I think science and religion could peacefully co-habitate in todays society if people would stop asserting their beliefs to be absolute truth. No one really knows, and chances are we'll never know how we came to be.
I do agree though, that neuro-science is the next big thing in religious studies.
All in all, a very interesting article. =)
Today, as a fifty two year old man, angels have no purpose in explaining things; a "god" does. I would label myself as Christian though most Christians would consider me far from such. I think evolution is a wonderment. The earth was not created six thousand years ago. Jonah was not swallowed by a whale. Job never existed. It's science, looking through the window, not the bible that leads me to call myself a Christian.
The discovery of a "big bang" did not end the need for a god, it confirmed it. Eleven dimensions, an infinite number of universes, the idea of a "sum over histories", wave probabilities, all compound the need for a "constant" of another sort....a god.
It is my "faith" that all science will eventually reveal an understanding of this god. It is my observation, that religion, all religions, are often the greatest hurdle to an understanding of this god. It is my hope, my prayer, that humankind never ceases in it's longing to come to this understanding. To me, it just doesn't matter if the physicist searching for a theory of everything is an athiest or a believer. Every truth made known, is another piece of god.
Thanks for the aricle.
We can't account for 94% of the universe. Some physicists prefer to call it 'dark energy' or 'dark matter' and they say that without it, the universe cannot make sense, though no one knows what it is. Well, that's an awful lot like religion.
There are mysteries we all want to pursue, science just chooses to pursue them in terms of natural laws rather than spiritual ones. People who say they can't co-exist are selling something - books and pageviews on websites and newspapers.
1. Religion is a business. Participants are either selling it or buying it. The sellers "spread the word" to bring in more buyers (power, money, etc.). More buyers gives the sense that it is less crazy. The evolutionary advantage comes from the fact that the sellers correctly see the non-belivers as threats to their power and have always been pretty good at ostracizing them. It's hard to get laid when you are an outcast.
2. The biggest drawback to religion is that it makes humans compromise on living THIS life and making this a better world right NOW in exchange for some mythical promise of another life in paradise. It seems that all religions (that I know of) are based on peace, love and harmony. If you believe in that sort of thing and you live your life based on those principals you have done plenty to earn your "reward" as they like to say in the bible belt. But too many religious people compromise by hating gays, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Americans, Russians, Republicans, Democrats, etc. All that intolerance does nothing to help get you into heaven based on what your religions are publicly teaching. Ultimately that hate leads to horrible actions that those on the fringes seem to think has implicit approval of the masses.
Live this life like it's the only one you have. Everything else will work itself out.
We can also point out how living for the next life can become an expression of hatred in this life. Inquistions, suicide bombers, religiocentricity (I just made that one up...wonder if there's an award of some sort for that), parents neglecting medical care for their children in favor of faith, on and on and on.
We must also consider the Salvation Army, hospitals, the Red Crescent, the Red Cross, Christian Children Fund, food banks, missions for the homeless, on and on and on and on and on and on and on. So much of so many religions ARE about living this life...with empathy, compassion, nobility and love.
It is the soul who refuse to look outside their own little fishbowl of life that learn to hate and fear and remain ignorant. Try this little experiment....Drive to work, every day for a week, listening to a conservative, talk radio station. Drive home while listening to progressive/liberal talk radio station. It won't take long before you begin to see the vitriol and hatred on both sides and how these extremes are miorror images of the other. Your comments, seem to me, to be the mirror images of the religious extreme. You talk about a segment that hates, Jews, gays, Muslims, etc. while at the same time express a blanket hatred of the religious. Hate is hate. It doesn't become a positive thing just because you have selected who you will choose to hate. Transend this thing.
I myself do not find much in religion that cannot be had without it, but the experiences there (which is really, with fanatics of both sides, as it seems that very few moderate religious people remain active for very long) have convinced me that I need to be countering the fanaticism (I tend to object to the use of words that, to them, are loaded; like "Fundamentalist").
I have instead decided that I would rather point out the scientific inaccuracies that I am aware of (I am studying Cognitive Science and Computational Engineering at CCSF, and should transfer to Berkeley next year), which mostly deal with very basic physics or chemistry mistakes, or, in the areas I am more familiar with, the workings of certain neurological structures (Mostly the hippocampus - or memory related objects, although my real area of study is in AI and Cognitive forms of Computation).
I enjoyed your Opening Article, and wish that I could find more people willing to find ways of just doing the right thing without having to demonize the other side of the debate.
I will admit to one fear (and it is my deepest held belief that it is unrecognized fears that drive most of our behavior - it would be too much to relate why in the short space here) I have regarding religion is that it will ultimately prove to be dangerous, specifically because it is possible to have all of the good that it does without the accompanying bad that comes from it...
Yet, I have another fear that accompanies this one: Reacting to one fear irrationally only makes things worse, and how does one discuss the first fear with the religious without inflaming their own fears that I am just simply looking for a way to rid the world of religion.
I've bookmarked ScienceBlogs... Interesting site.
Pablo
Pablo's Origins Blog













ask a yogi this question, you will get a better answer than this article allows for ..
enjoy, gregory lent