She notes that when she talks to other women scientists, their setbacks are usually framed through personal issues but with men, that side rarely comes up. Obviously that's not a scientific sample; if she happens to hang out with women who complain a lot, or who blame politics or their gender for their setbacks, that skews the data. Likewise, people who did easy research and got jobs stand out more than people who did more challenging stuff, because that is more the norm and perhaps she notices that more when it happens to men.
So I thought about the male scientists I know, and the males in business, and wondered if the kind of 'sexist skepticism' she says exists really exists. Now, we probably have to disqualify the private sector (in this area.) I know, I know, there are going to be women in the high end physics private sector who say they were treated differently but I have just never seen it. In the private sector, I do not care what gender you are, what color you are, or anything else except whether or not you know your stuff - a surprising number of people do not, but like to think they do. I even have the white male old boys club card so if there were going to be gender or racial bias I would have seen it by now. In high end analysis, there is no room for bias because there are too few people really great.
That leaves the academic sector as the source of bias. I am hard pressed to believe that universities, being overwhelmingly 'liberal' according to both the right wing and the left, are still secret strongholds of sexism but I have never worked in academia so it's possible. It's also possible perception is the culprit. Chris Webber, former NBA rookie of the year and player on the Sacramento Kings, once said he wanted to leave Sacramento for someplace more 'diverse.' This was puzzling to a lot of people locally. In a country with 70% white people he was living in a city, Sacramento, that was only 45% white people - so pretty darn diverse. But he was from Detroit and an area that was 85% black. Anything less than that was not 'diverse' though clearly he just noticed when there were fewer than he expected (1).
So if the anonymous blogger really sees sexism, it may be in some sense self-created, probably because of a numbers perception but it's still worth thinking about. If she is in physics, for example, there are fewer women than men by far. But in the life sciences it is about 50/50 and in social sciences there is a whopping disparity in the number of women. Almost as disparate as women in physics. Maybe she's in physics. It can be a lonely place for women there.
I have news for both genders, in science and outside. In every area of every occupation that involves interpersonal involvement, there will be politics and there will be bosses who are exploitative and there will be failures and people will make excuses for them. If 90% of Harvard students think they will be in the top 50% 0f their class, clearly people do not see themselves objectively.
Very few people regard setbacks as something under their control; it's easier to externalize the fault.
The great thing about an allegation like sexist skepticism ('allegation' is probably the wrong term since it has too much colloquial connotation, but 'intimation' is not strong enough - her tone was speculative , not combative) (2) is that disagreement can be easily dismissed. Mine can be dismissed because I am not a woman, for example.
So what do you women in science think? Do you see a perception issue, does your science have to be better because of your gender?
NOTES:
(1) A friend of mine, a black guy who lived in Oakland (so, around a lot of other black people) once expressed alarm that in Folsom there weren't many black people. I protested that of course there were and he said, "Yeah, in the prison!" Then he ate sushi in my jacuzzi in the winter, proving that Folsom isn't such a bad place to be.
(2) She also mentioned a Technorati group tagging effort called Scientiae Carnival, which is interesting because it clearly isn't the same old attention-whoring people linking to each other and one or two outsiders to look like a community effort. I have never understood Technorati - it's easily gamed and links are a fake metric for readership - but this is a good idea because I saw a lot of names I had never seen before.
Comments
Academia may be different. There are a lot of PhDs and I am betting there will be more in a bad economy and the pool of slots for them in academia is finite. For post-docs who are considered 'unproven' as she said, it allows any number of other biases to creep in and they may have to try harder than someone else more likable.
I certainly get that there is bias in the big wide world. I am not naïve. :) And you are in a physical science where, as I said, the numbers are skewed against women and we all notice when we are in the minority. But in life sciences it is probably just an excuse and in social sciences it can't even be excuse since 70% are women.
I think it still happens in those fields too but, because it is irrational, it is rare.
"there are so few people there cannot be sexism or racism - it is incredibly stupid. "
I'm afraid it is a fact that even if it is in an enterprise's best interest to choose a woman (because of her skills) they simply don't.
You are correct, the formerly used argument that there aren't a big enough pool of qualified women so that is why we don't choose them, is evidently not valid. We've seen it for many years.
And, oh, I used to work with recruitment of women to science, technology and medicine for a few years. I'm not guessing or making it up. It is based on hard facts, tons of statistics and analysis.
I think you, Hank, simply voice common sense here. It is only logical what you say, I fully agree. Unfortunately, logic is not the dominant force in this game. :-)
So it's unfortunate that, at least in my experience, so many outstanding women scientists early in their careers question their success and their ability to compete. Undoubtedly there is some bias in academia, but I'm not so sure that immediate bias within the lab explains all of this because it still occurs in extremely supportive labs - maybe it's the result of a lifetime of subtle discrimination or negative reinforcement. Whatever it is, men tend to be less prone to self-doubt. Conveying an impression of self-confidence is critical for landing that first academic job after a post-doc.
Some of the stuff in the YoungFemaleScientist post suggests that there are big differences in perception. For example, this:
Not so long ago, I was talking about some of the challenges in my project, and a young male professor told me he thought my project sounded "too hard". I was totally baffled by this, because I was not complaining or saying that we couldn't figure out ways around these challenging issues. In fact, I was talking about the solutions I came up with, as examples of how satisfying problem-solving can be, and how cool the answers were: i.e., things I am really proud of accomplishing at work. ... Until I realized he himself had chosen something technically easy for his own research.
She perceives as sexist something that is bread-and-butter advice a good mentor would give to any grad student or postdoc. I've been hammered multiple times in fellowship applications for proposing something that reviewers felt was too ambitious - this is an extremely common criticism of grant applications.
One of the most important lessons you can learn in your scientific training is to work in bite-sized chunks. Your ideas should be big - you should pick an important problem, but, in almost all cases, you make progress by breaking things into bite-sized chunks. The most commonly doled-out advice to grad students in my dept, male and female, is to pare down your aims. Those who don't learn this lesson tend to founder and never bring projects to completion. This is not sexist advice.
I had one kid while I was in grad school, and was told by a female colleague with no kids that I was lucky to have a wife to cook dinner for me - when in fact I tend to do more of the cooking. She just assumed that because I was the guy, I just came home and sat on my ass.
The same thing happened later - a single female colleague with no kids (I have three now) commented to the effect that I was lucky to have someone clean and cook for me at home. That's an offensive assumption to both me and my wife - it assumes that I don't do anything at home, and that my wife has no life of her own, that she is simply there to cater to my needs. Maybe that was a reasonable default assumption a generation ago, but it sure as hell isn't now.
I'm not saying there isn't bias anywhere in academia, but selective perception is also happening here.
Perhaps there's another perspective to this that should be considered. Forgetting sexism, racism, ageism, whatever for the moment.
It is not entirely unexpected that we will tend to hire or favor an individual that we can relate to and that may well mirror our own ambitions and objectives. Obviously knowing people at a personal level or having friendships (the proverbial networking) goes a long ways towards building relationships that may be coupled with opportunities.
I also think it is safe to say, that (in general) when more advanced positions requiring expertise are being sought, then very few individuals are a "shoo in" to the position. Most have to acquire experience and skills to be offered and last in higher positions.
My concern is that part of the problem is by labeling catories like sexism and racism, we offer an opportunity to avoid self-examination and write-off the intrinsic difficulties that we all tend to face. Perhaps I'm not making progress as quickly as I would like? If I don't have a label to attach to it, I'm left with either "the boss doesn't like me", or "I'm doing something wrong". It is practically legend how often one hears of "personality conflicts" with a superior that stifle advancement.
Yet, when we have the social labels, then suddenly the "personality conflict" becomes sexist or racist, despite the fact that it may still be exactly the same thing, but now we've got a more sinister rationale for why we aren't progressing as we'd like.
I'm certainly not suggesting that sexism or racism don't exist because there is ample historical evidence to indicate otherwise, but we also need to be careful that we don't categorize the normal difficulties and struggles to these classifications and perhaps undermine the motivation we ourselves need in order to overcome these difficulties and succeed.
Gerhard, I think you point to a human factor that is not malicious in any way (sexist, racist,...), namely the security of including people you know in your network, that including hiring persons in various positions.
Recognizing all these elements and biology, it is still a fact that women are particularly disadvantaged. I agree with Hank, it is stupid and a waste of talent, but it is also a matter of who gets to stay in power and those with the power does no like to give it away. That is how simple it is. In the rat race.
You all have to excuse me before hand now, but I simply cannot help myself:
I was visiting a space exploration exhibition at one of my visits to ESA in the Netherlands. There was a go-through mock-up of the space shuttle and we saw the personal belongings in the 'private' corner of some of the astronauts. In the little cave belonging to a female astronaut, I am so sorry I do not remember her name, there was a little sign saying.
In order to succeed as a woman you have to be three times as good as men. Luckily, that is not too hard!
I said I was sorry, right! :-))
When you say "because it is irrational, it is rare," you're thinking about the problem from a rational, enlightened point of view. Unfortunately there are a LOT of people who don't think like that. I'm not saying sexism is rampant or that it happens all the time. And of course, it could all be in the eye of the beholder. But that's how it is, I suppose. I have no idea what it's like to be an ethnic minority and followed in a store or pulled over by a cop, so while I can hope that cops and store clerks are more evolved, I can't say that it doesn't exist or know what it feels like because I've never been in their shoes.
Mike makes a valid point as well, that reverse discrimination - that he sits on his ass because he's the male - is completely ridiculous. The women scientists I knew and was in lab with were not like that at all - we all had strong personalities and assumed the men would take equal responsibility in life. But there again is an example of data skewing because of the sample population.
we all had strong personalities and assumed the men would take equal responsibility in life.
That's what it should be, and in most cases, my married female colleagues share that view - I don't know, maybe some who aren't married are more skeptical that there really are guys out there who will cook and help keep things up around the house - who will try to take equal responsibility.
In any case, in addition to bias, I think there is a perception issue in some cases, a perception that guys are always treated more favorably, whether that perception is accurate or not.
Of course, as Georg pointed out, when it comes to pregnancy and young kids, the burden inevitably falls more heavily on women, no matter how willing the guy is to help out.
when it comes to pregnancy and young kids, the burden inevitably falls more heavily on women
That's too bad, because there are great men out there who do want to share the responsibility, but I think we still have a ways to go before offices let guys out to do what was traditionally considered to be "women's work." Heck, it's hard enough to get some bosses to reconcile with women being pregnant and having kids.
And if I have a grant and a deadline and I hire you with my limited resources and you decide to get pregnant, I am a little pissed. Otherwise, though, it's no issue.
Honestly, if I ever have had any bias, all things being equal it's for family people over single. People with families will stick around. Men and women having kids?? Even better for job security!
I was thinking more about the job where the boss actually says that having kids will negatively impact your career (which I've seen happen).
I've seen (as an observer of course) various professors go down both paths - some tell their women postdocs (usually postdocs, rarely grad students) that pregnancy is a terrible career move, while others are extremely supportive. And the funny thing is, in the labs where the professors are supportive, the women come back from maternity leave and are extremely successful - the fact that they interrupted their careers means some things were delayed, but ultimately made no difference in the quality of the science done.
This shouldn't be surprising, but unfortunately it still is to some people in academic labs.
I am pleased that things have moved on. I would like to see more works of fiction using women hero figures1.
I rather like the style of fiction that blends in a historical figure here and there. It lets the reader get a 'feel' for the possible: hey! If Florence Nightingale could overcome all of those prejudiced men, why can't I acheive something worthwhile?
Women sometimes have to deal with even posthumous barriers. Mary Seacole of Crimea fame had, and still has, less media coverage than Florence Nightingale. But Florence Nightingale in turn is mis-remembered. She was, first and foremost, a mathematician! It was her methodical, statistical studies that paved the way to modern hospital hygeine requirements.
The Passionate Statistician
It is not entirely unexpected that we will tend to hire or favor an individual that we can relate to
1 - I could post a link to a book of fiction on Amazon in which our heroine goes to Constantinople to join Florence Nightingale, but it might be seen as a blatent example of what Gerhard was saying . :)
There are those that are blanatly discriminatory towards qualified individuals, while there are those on the other side that will use those same labels to try and gain advantage because of their own mediocrity. Obviously legislation doesn't really work, since you can't really get inside someone's head and make them feel differently if a bias exists.
In one respect, there's a certain element of Darwinian type natural selection that may work, where if better qualified individuals are lost to competitors because of such bias, then eventally the "fittest" survive over others anyway.
In short, I certainly don't know what the solution is, but I'm certainly more apt to encourage motivated, intelligent applicants to any position to keep fighting for their recognition, because despite whatever discouraging events may occur, there are certainly enough people today that need and recognize raw talent regardless of race or gender.
To put a cat among the pigeons, may I present you with this excerpt from the book:
PHYSICS
The description of high systemizers that I have outlined in this book strikes a chord among some academic physicists today. It is of interest that one study of the personalities of high-achieving physicists reported them to be less sociable than those in the general population.
Helenka Przysiezniak is in that rare minority of female academic physicists — they number less than one in eight of all academic physicists. In 1998 she gave an interview with a reporter from the Times Higher, during which she discussed her male colleagues at CERN:
«They lack basic social skills and some do not take care of themselves. . . there is one characteristic that she says that all physicists have — herself included — and that is ‘arrogance’. ‘You want to prove that something is right if you believe in it. That’s just how it works when you’re discussing the "truth",’ she claims. »
Przysiezniak suggests that a psychological analysis of the personalities that physics attracts would reveal that physicists are very focused, one-track-minded, obsessive even. They tend to be just as passionate about their other interests — many of the physicists at CERN are accomplished musicians and concerts are held there almost daily. The mountains and lakes that surround CERN offer the chance for skiing, mountaineering and sailing, a chance that many of the physicists seize.
Skiing, mountaineering and sailing — all require good systemizing skills, as does physics. Moreover, an arrogant assumption that you are right and everyone else is wrong suggests low empathizing skills in failing to recognize not only that others might have a valid point of view (there might be several ways of seeing a problem) but also that a dismissal of another’s point of view might be hurtful to their feelings.
> was thinking more about the job where the boss actually says that having kids will negatively impact your career (which I've seen happen).
Besides being a scientist, I'm the one that's home for the kids after school, sick days, holidays, etc. I've gotten negative feedback, ranging from upbeat advice like "don't mention you have kids" down to boss comments asking me when will my kids be old enough so I can 'get serious' about my career. The singles who come in late due to clubbing, take breaks in the afternoon to work out, or go on lots of trips don't get dinged for working reasonable hours and having a life (and they shouldn't! Have a life! It's your right!) Performance-wise, we're the same, but the perception of prioritizing family is a stigma.
Most of the scientists with kids I know fall into four categories:
1) older generation, wife stayed home to care for them and now they're either grown or wife is still home
2) both parents work and use daycare extensively
3) mom is 'offramped' until the kids are older
4) dropped out of research to do service/technical work (better hours and better pay)
Perception is everything. I tend to not masquerade, and as such I am incredibly fortunate that my current workplace (NRL solar branch) hired me and supported me for a 3-year post-doc knowing I was 'in a family way' :)
Connected to this, Hank wrote:
> I am hard pressed to believe that universities, being overwhelmingly 'liberal' according to both the right wing and the left, are still secret strongholds of sexism
Sexism isn't a conservative value. Liberals and conservatives alike can be sexist, racist, exclusionist, etc.
Note also that while university students may trend liberal, the administration tends to conservatism and professors are all over the place. Academia is about as far from lockstep as you can get. And all of that has no connection with social belief structures:.
Sexism isn't an either/or but a complex topic including issues of gender nature/nurture, role of the sexes, sex and gender, exclusionary or inclusive gender interaction, cultural bias, self-image, etc. For example, if the Baron-Cohen quote posted earlier a) true, b) sexist, c) both, d) neither, e) other?
Cheers,
Alex, that daytime astronomer/parent guy
The personality of physicists
Wilson G. D.; Jackson C. (Institute of Psychiatry, London)
Personality and individual differences
1994, vol. 16, no1, pp. 187-189
The Eysenck Personality Profiler (EPP) was given to 109 male and 133 female physicists and comparisons made with male and female population norms. Results confirm previous research with male scientists, showing them to be introverted and cautious (particularly careful, controlled, inhibited and unsociable). They were not, however, especially stable relative to same-sex controls. The personality profile of the female physicists showed a similar pattern to that of males (as regards comparisons with gender norms). Although significantly more tough-minded than women at large, female physicists could not be described as generally masculine.












Actually I'd say that those fairly well educated among us who insist that there is no sexism, indirectly say they believe women are less talented. Sorry! :-)
We all perceive the world differently, come setbacks or appraisals. The numbers are objective facts though; men are being recruited to leading positions in our society just because they are men. Also, women are paid less for their talent. This is just the reality we live in.