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By Josh Witten | July 17th 2009 12:36 PM | 9 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Josh Witten

100% of this the rugbyologist's revenue is donated to Doctors Without Borders (Medecins Sans Frontieres). A click on one of my articles is a click that helps bring high quality medical care to the... Full Bio

Let me tell you why I love Richard Feynman, among the many reasons.  Feynman loved the process of science.  He was not wedded to some search for TRUTH.  He was a practical man.  He simply wanted a slightly more predictive model of the world than he had the day before.  And, he lived it.  The guy went to clubs and scientifically experimented with pick-up lines.



Due to my Feynmanesque pragmatic love of science (perfection is a fool's quest), I'm somewhat disturbed by Sean Carroll's logic
And, without fail, the scientific judgment comes down in favor of a
strictly non-miraculous, non-supernatural view of the universe.

This sounds all good and logical on its face, but what Carroll fails to address is the framework upon which the scientific method is built.  The scientific method makes two general assumptions, to which we have never observed an exception.

1. Any phenomena can be understood as an effect of the laws of nature.
2. The laws of nature are the same everywhere (i.e., not only are we in a special place, there are no special places)*

These are the base assumptions upon which the scientific method is built.  Logically, the method built on assumptions cannot be used to prove those assumptions.  It is like using a mathematics system based on the concept that 1+1=2 to prove that 1+1=2 .  Trivially, it is not surprising that the scientific method produces results that are consistent with natural cause and effect. 

It is our observations that additional assumptions are not necessary to explain phenomena and that those assumptions are not violated which demonstrate the continued validity. 

As a result, the scientific method cannot disprove the general existence of supernatural effects or the existence of a god.  The method requires that we assume they do not exist.  The method is capable of testing specific claims and effects, such as in Carroll's well phrased virgin birth example.

Similarly, atheism makes the basic assumption that there is no god.  In the realm of assumptions underlying faiths, atheism is by far the Occamiest of belief systems (i.e., makes the fewest assumptions).  That makes atheism, in the absence of the impossible direct test, the preferred hypothesis, but does not represent proof.

So, in summary, I agree with Carroll that our observations and experience do not require supernatural forces for accurate explanation.  I would, however, like to see the logic a tad less mangled.   

*Usually only astronomers and astrophysicists consciously worry about this one.

N.B. Predictably, PZ jumped on the bandwagon and wrote glowingly about Carroll's post (including making it mandatory reading for the PZealots), cause, like the rest of us, PZ loves him some confirmation bias.


Comments

There are even more untestable underlying assumptions to scientific method than the two you name, but your next sentence is key:
"... the base assumptions upon which the scientific method is built. Logically, the method built on assumptions cannot be used to prove those assumptions. It is like using a mathematics system based on the concept that 1+1=2 to prove that 1+1=2."

Carroll has to employ entrenched circular reasoning to make his argument, as is always the case at the most basic level of science. I can't even 'prove' that I exist without eventually bumping up against a circular line of reasoning and unprovable assumptions. As he himself says we can know something "beyond a reasonable doubt" but still won't have certainty (he calls it "metaphysical certainty" for effect, but it's really just certainty).

Regarding Feynman, worth noting that he couldn't stand pomposity and hubris in science... probably wouldn't even have coffee with some of the folks lauding him these days... or if he did have coffee with them he wouldn't do it a second time!

jtwitten's picture
I guess I left out the linearity of cause and effect, but that one is not particularly unique to science.

While any human method for building knowledge is limited by the fallibility and restrictiveness of individual perception, the scientific method is the most predictive and most productive method we have.  Personally, I don't care if you exist, but I happily note that I can construct a far more predictive model of nature if I assume that you do indeed exist instead of being a figment of my imagination.

Gary Herstein's picture
As a result, the scientific method cannot disprove the general existence of supernatural effects or the existence of a god.  The method requires that we assume they do not exist.

No, the method notes that these are not interesting hypotheses, because they are vacuous as explanations: Argumentum ad ignorantiam, in their most extreme forms the "God o' the gaps" pseudo-explanation. However, I'm not sure how many self-styled atheists actually recognize the above distinction, so as a rule of thumb you're probably correct.

The "proof" of the assumptions is the practical facts of effective inquiry. Rejecting those facts or rejecting that effectiveness might result in some other type of activity, but one could equally demand a reasoned justification of such a "method" by its effectiveness and rational standing as a general method.


Trivially, it is not surprising that the scientific method produces results that are consistent with natural cause and effect.


It is hardly trivial. There have been more than a few assumptions about Nature and cause and effect that have not born themselves out through inquiry. Simply because one "assumes" something hardly guarantees that one will find what one assumes. No amount of assumption will convert a pile of bricks into a feather pillow, turn water into wine, etc. As such, the method is not merely assumed; it has boot-strapped itself by the reality of its achievements and the self-correcting forms of feedback that are operationally a part of the methodology.

That being said, I think justifications can be given for pursuits such as theology, which can make these logcially valid as methods of inquiry without reducing them to "science." But it does take more work than many supposed critics of the scientific method often care to invest to make this happen. On the other hand, one reason why people like PZ Myers or Richard Dawkins cause me to delaminate when they talk about religion is that they evidently think that theology is exhausted by what they picked up from watching a half hour of Pat Robertson.

jtwitten's picture
If one assumes that non-reproducible supernatural events (one-offs) are relatively rare, then it would not be surprising at all that the scientific method produces results consistent with the absence of supernatural forces.  Reproducible, frequently occurring supernatural forces become just natural forces under this way of thinking, because they are predictable and can be incorporated into a predictive model.

The method and the observations should not be conflated.  The scientific method describes a particular process of obtaining knowledge, although the details of that process and its ramifications are debated. 

While one can test whether the "laws of nature" are the same in place A and place B.  One cannot test whether they are the same "everywhere."  Technically, the assumption can be falsified by a single contrary example, but the method relies its universal truth, which is what makes it an assumption. 

Gary Herstein's picture
But "one-off's" are cognitively vacuous; they have no explanatory value. In terms of knowledge saying, "Its a miracle" is as patently empty as saying, "I don't know." But it terms of INQUIRY, the former is not merely empty it is downright monstrous, because it is a demand to terminate inquiry with the verbal pretenses of explanation in the absolute absence of any logical content. At least when we say "I don't know," there is an invitation -- maybe even a demand -- to continue with inquiry. "Do not block the road of inquiry" is the first rule of reason.

You're tossing the word "assumption" around with rather promiscuous disregard for the variety of senses the term actually carries. I "assume" there is an external world because no rational justification can be given for assuming otherwise. I "assume" when I walk into room that the electrical outlets are functioning. But this latter assumption is a matter of convenience only that is readily tested and rapidly rejected as circumstances warrant. The assumption is a tool, not a blind spot. And when the tool fails me, I set the tool aside and choose another with which to test the situation.

By the bye, there are those who have wondered about the legitimacy of the instrumentally presumed uniformity of nature. Quite aside from Hume, there was Charles Saunders Peirce (the author of the above "Do not block ..." quote) in the last quarter of the 19th Century. Sadly, most physicists will place the credit somewhere in the 1940's with Pauli or Dirac (or someone else; my memory does not serve as well as it ought). Absent a pragmatic and testable reason to reject this intellectual instrument, what reasoned purpose can be given for treating it as anything other than the viable tool it is?

jtwitten's picture
Carroll's work discusses what kinds of questions are addressable by science.  Therefore, we are dealing in the realm of philosophy, hypotheticals, and generalities.  The scientific approach to an unknown event with "I don't know."  In the case of a truly unique event that operates outside normal physical laws, this would not be addressable by the scientific method.  Fortunately, we have no evidence of such events.

I do not use assumption as lightly as you seem to think.  I'm using it in the sense of the base of a logical argument (i.e., synonymously with "premise").

There is no reason to reject the assumption that nature is uniform.  It is a very useful assumption that has never been observed to be violated.  The theoretical legitimacy is not the issue.  This premise cannot be formally proven and is a basis of the scientific method.  Carroll's efforts to argue that the scientific method proves this point are circular. 

The scientific method is a form of logical argument.  All logical arguments are based upon assumptions.  The argument proceeding from those assumptions cannot be used to prove those assumptions.  The scientific method benefits from being based upon very, very, very reasonable and useful ones. 

Gary Herstein's picture
Carroll's efforts to argue that the scientific method proves this point are circular. 

That part I would agree with.


I do not use assumption as lightly as you seem to think.  I'm using it in the sense of the base of a logical argument (i.e., synonymously with "premise").

I accept that you do not use the term lightly, or as lightly as I appeared to think. But the bases (plural) of a premise are multi-modal in character.  So the above does not provide you with the kind of leverage I suspect you are looking for; it is merely an exchange of terms. The "base" of a "logical" argument can be anything from a mere formality to a consciously pragmatic choice. (I scare quote "logical" in the preceding because that term historically meant "the theory of inquiry", whereas in much (but not all!) contemporary discourse it refers only to a narrowly defined spectrum of formal relations of implication.)

jtwitten's picture
I think the only real disagreement here is on the point being made.  The scientific method is a formalized system of inquiry or logical argument.  It proceeds from certain pragmatic, reasonable, and unfalsified assumptions/bases/premises.  An argument proceeding from stated premises cannot be used to prove those premises.  This is why Carroll's argument is circular.  While I agree with him that supernatural forces are unnecessary, I disagree with his logic.  His argument would be much stronger if he made a better effort to define "supernatural" and then determine whether or not that definition is scientifically testable.  Pervasive and predictable supernatural phenomena (as often described by believers in such phenomena) are accessible to the scientific method.

I am not looking for leverage against the scientific method.  That view comes from my perspective that the scientific method is a pragmatic method for distinguishing between more and less accurate models of nature.  If one views science as a search for absolute truth, then one will have an issue with treating the scientific method as a formalized logical argument.

Gary Herstein's picture
I agree; and FWIW, Carroll's argument irritates the $#!* out of me, for many of the reasons you note. There is a good argument he could have made, but instead we have the one he offered.

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