The Discovery Institute blog, Uncommon Descent (how cute!) called me “a worrisome character” because I dared to suggest that education is not about having kids debate “the two sides” of every issue (to begin with, because there often are more than two sides, and straightjacketing the discussion in that way commits the logical fallacy of contrived dualism). Dave Scot, at Uncommon Descent picked up on an analogy I gave about the silliness of the “two views” doctrine and commented: “Massimo doubts that the science establishment can present the evidence for a round earth, like live satellite images, well enough to let children use critical thinking skills to decide if the scientists have made a compelling case.”
Ah, so indirect observation now is enough to convince children (or anyone) of a scientific notion, is it? Well, we can observe evolution and natural selection happening under (indeed, inside, in the case of the influenza virus) our very noses, but still 50% of Americans refuse to accept it. Fossils are readily observable by anyone who cares doing so, but of course they are dismissed as the handiwork of the devil.
Surely Mr. Scot is aware that some (“adult”) Americans reject images “allegedly” generated by space missions (like the ones to the Moon) as fabrications by a conspiracy-prone government, so why on earth would one trust satellite photos of the round earth? That’s the beauty of faith-based worldviews: they are impervious to mere facts.
Even more amusing is Christine Dao’s commentary on the ICR’s web site, whose title is “Palin slammed for supporting open debate” (if there is anything we have learned recently about Sarah Palin is that she is a vindictive politician who cannot bear dissent, let alone encourage open debate). Ms. Dao deserves to be quoted extensively to be appreciated: “Logic and evaluating evidence are tools used to analyze the world around us, and so far that same logic and evaluation has led many scientists and others to believe that the evidence speaks of a Creator God rather than random chance and natural selection.”
Oh really? Which scientists would those be? The faculty of the ICR, who has to swear allegiance to a literalist interpretation of the Bible to be kept in employment? I don’t recall being forced to sign a document committing me to Darwinism when I was hired at Stony Brook University. Maybe it was in the small print.
Again, Dao: “Limiting how the evidence can be interpreted puts educators in the interesting position of not teaching students, but instead conditioning them to recite the ‘correct’ answers without a second thought to other possible explanations.” Except that I advocate the teaching of critical thinking skills, so that students can in fact inoculate themselves -- of their own accord -- against the nonsense propagandized by the Discovery Institute and the ICR. But critical thinking takes time to learn, you don’t just serve up two options without tools for assessment and say “here, you decide.”
More from Dao: “Individuals such as Pigiliucci [sic] have taken their cue from Richard Dawkins, P.Z. Meyers, and other evolutionary supporters in their active condemnation and ridicule of anyone who doesn’t agree with their own platforms.” First of all, if anyone thinks I have much agreement with Richard Dawkins they have not been paying attention (as for P.Z., I have discovered him many years after I started writing about these things, back in 1997).
Now, the charge of ridicule is one that needs to be carefully assessed, however. I take the position that most people who believe in creationism are victims of blind religious propaganda and of the failure of our education system (though the roots of creationism are of course much more complex than just that). They, therefore, deserve consideration and help (in the form of good science education). Demagogues like Scot and Dao, on the other hand, are willfully engaging in a concerted effort to undermine the use of reason in our society, an attitude that among many other things has given us eight disastrous years under a “commander in chief” who belittles expert advice while thinking with his gut (which apparently advised him to support “equal teaching”).
This same anti-intellectualism may well give us several more years of an even worse version of the same in Sarah Palin. It is people like Scot and Dao, and a fortiori their sponsoring organizations, that deserve to have all the ridicule that thinking people can amass heaped on them.
Comments
You quoted FactCheck's very poor synopses of Palin's record.
In fact, if you continue to read further, Palin asked the librarian about how she could go about banning books, and the librarian outright refused to ban any books. She was actually fired because Palin felt she did not support her. She was rehired after the town rallied to the librarian's defense.
There was no list in the original report, and the mention of a list in your quote is a misdirection.
As far as whether she's pushed for teaching creationism or not, she herself has said:
Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.
My main point is that I don't read Pigliucci as having "lied", as you contend. (Also, FactCheck.org is pretty poorly written.)
On the issue of her believing creationism should be "taught side by side" here's a quote taken after the one you mentioned.
Palin, Oct. 2006: I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum.
That doesn't sound quite like "she supports “equal time” for Creationism" Something like that would require it be part of the curriculum.
Again, I am not for Palin, she's pretty horrible in a lot of ways. I just think the misleads only hurt the candidate you're trying to support.
Isn't there anything in the Scriptures specifically forbidding intellectual fraud and dishonesty?
It's a tricky situation. Thomas has complete and utter faith (yes, really) that what he's been told all of his life is completely and utterly true. He speaks all the time to scientists who claim to have first hand knowledge of evidence of creation. He speaks to biologists, and catches them off guard with a question. (Many perpetual motion machines can catch even physicists off guard, if presented in the right manner.) He's friends with a physicist with an interesting geological hypothesis; a biologist with a animation of a cellular process, and seeing that, he remembers a line out of Hunt For Red October: "Now, listen to it at ten-times speed: *kerchunk-kerchunk-kerchunk-kerchunk* That's gotta be man made."
The gears start grinding, he thinks about what it all means, and comes up with a pretty nifty theology. He knows his elders wouldn't approve, so he keeps it to himself. But it's so Obvious! That's gotta be what the Word of God was talking about! And a week later, he finds it: irrefutable evidence that he was right, because Proverbs 14:23 says "....", and what else could it mean!?
And I haven't even touched on the social pressures involved. Nor the tremendous force of will required to continue, to see the truth while your soul cries out "You're gonna be damned if you go down this road!".
Richard Dawkins said that he hopes that we don't need to resort to public outings. But I can't see myself coming out clean to my parents, my family, my community.
I take the position that most people who believe in creationism are victims of blind religious propaganda and of the failure of our education system
You are probably right.
It shouldn't be hard to understand - for anybody - that science and religion are two separate topics and should not be mixed.
One could say that when faced with something they don't understand a scientist tries to figure it out while the religiously inclined start believing.
Creationism and intelligent design has absolutely nothing to do with science and I can't believe you are even discussing "teaching them both".
As a sign of respect of the various belief systems they are being taught in religion classes at school in Norway. It is however not possible to learn about all shades of religion, the field is too vast. In real life then, classes are given in the biggest belief systems. So even if creationism and intelligent design would belong to religion classes I don't know if they deserve the space being so insignificant as they, after all, still are. Having said that, I immediately add that this is fortunately a hypothetical situation in Norway. In the US, unfortunately, it appears real.
It is a major insult to peoples intelligence to even suggest that creationism and intelligent design has anything to do with science and scientific methods.
Since it is so obvious that creationism and intelligent design are not science, claiming it is is an intentional insult. As a scientist I am deeply offended by this sly and vicious attempt to violate my brain.
Bente Lilja Bye is the author of Lilja - A bouquet of stories about the Earth
A Northern Ireland friend remarked to me that the BBC must be doing something right, since they were being complained about by both the extreme Loyalists and by Sinn Féin. Now if the author were under attack from the other side also ...
A wise friend of mine wondered if certain British "Lefties" were actually Conservative "moles", placed there to discredit the Labour Party. I do not involve myself in American politics, but this column edges my "swingometer" towards the Republican side.
Robert H. Olley
Physics Department
University of Reading
England
1. The fact that something happens to one species doesn't proof that it happens to all others.
2. The key to Darwinism (and what most people find hard to accept) is not that species evolve, but that the changes behind that evolution are driven purely by random mutation. Can you proof that all genetic changes happen randomly?
The reason why it's hard to accept, is because it isn't true. This is a high school view of randomness where the presumption is that all systems must randomly evolve as independent systems and coincidentally randomly change with dependent systems to form functional structures. Perhaps its time to stop having a 150 year old argument and start paying attention to current research and information? As for the "red herring" argument of providing proof? Where is the proof regarding what gravity is? Can decoherence be proven? How about the "many worlds view"? How long were Newton's theories of mechanics in use before they were refined by Einstein? or the elements of electromagnetic theory? I don't understand why biology is being subjected to a requirement for rigorous proof that often took other disciplines centuries to achieve. The problem is that too many people "think" they understand evolution and consequently it becomes a target for every trivial argument that conflicts with people's beliefs. It's not likely you'd find similar enthusiasm for proof or controversy in quantum physics.The key to Darwinism (and what most people find hard to accept) is not that species evolve, but that the changes behind that evolution are driven purely by random mutation. Can you proof that all genetic changes happen randomly?
How long were Newton's theories of mechanics in use before they were refined by Einstein? or the elements of electromagnetic theory?
Actually, I can't give a valid definition of a magnetic field even today, nor can anyone else. Yet we still have a $250 billion semiconductor industry.
It also doesn't keep me from wearing my "It all began with Maxwell's equations" shirt with Gauss' B fields on there, even though I know that's really Heaviside.
I remain puzzled that people continue to hammer on Darwin. 150 years back is a long way to look for holes, scientifically.
My current favorite is one that says 2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)t also doesn't keep me from wearing my "It all began with Maxwell's equations" shirt with Gauss' B fields on there, even though I know that's really Heaviside.
So when you say:
I remain puzzled that people continue to hammer on Darwin. 150 years back is a long way to look for holes, scientifically.
I believe you are assuming they really try to understand or at least that they take Darwin seriously, just not agreeing with him. But they have a completely different agenda than to even understand Darwin.
Why don't somebody from the scientific community sue them for scientific fraud? It clearly is some sort of fraud.
I should think that it would be in the interest of the National Science Foundation to stop scientific fraud and attempts to disregard science. :-)
PS. I can offer some modal logic:
Just because statement A (Darwin was right) is false or not possible to prove (true or false) it does not imply that statement B (God exist) is true. Should you believe statement B is true, statement A can be either true of false. No problem. :-)
I will immediately get myself a T-shirt that says:
2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2) LOL (not disrespecting Maxwell, of course.)
Bente Lilja Bye is the author of Lilja - A bouquet of stories about the Earth
From a comment (not mine) on the Daily Telegraph website:
And don't worry about creationism being taught in our schools. If it's as well taught as science the children will not be able to explain it and very few will take it unless it is an easy multiple-choice subject.
Robert H. Olley
Physics Department
University of Reading
England
It's not good science but a mechanism that enables one to tell any story desired, even mutually exclusive ones.
Thousands of generations of forced breeding of dogs (or "X") produces only other dogs. Mutations are either deadly or neutral, not beneficially constructing complex new organs out of nothing. Resistance to antibiotics isn't evolution; it's the same bacteria. Darwinian evolution has not been observed. I don't have enough faith to believe in it.
Drive through a desert and see a turtle beneath a billboard that says "Buy Pepsi". People assume the sign had to be designed even though it is very simple. But somehow, the trillions of times more complex turtle is a product of chance events and self-assembly.
A real scientist, not blinded, by dogma would think to ask how we are make those decisions, and if the analysis can be generalized and applied without bias.
If the very simple "Buy Pepsi" signs REQUIRES design, the extremely complicated turtle has be considered carefully.
Also, after thousands of years assuming the universe had always existed, it was discovered last century that space and time originated from nothing. Things that have a beginning require a cause. If not, give an example. (Note that by definition, a creator of space-time could not be defined by space-time, thus would not have a beginning).
The world should be filled with transitional forms if evolution was correct. It is not. The fossil record shows species suddenly appear fully formed, persist unchanged, then die. This is consistent with design, totally at odds with evolution.
If the age of the Earth was a football field, you would march from one end to the 16 yard line on the other side and see only primitve cellular creatures. Then, in the span of a footstep, all major phyla suddenly appear fully formed without preceding forms (Cambrian explosion). This is also unreconcilable with evolution, but consistent with design.
Evolution is a 19th century science turned dogma, maintained for philosophical reasons (fear of being accountable or subordinate to something larger; human ego) even though modern understanding of biology has passed it by.
Your understanding of "chance events" is based on a complete misunderstanding of biological processes and making unfounded presumptions. People assume the sign was designed because it's an inanimate object. In addition, as far as "self-assembly" goes, this clearly happens every time a new life is born. Your supposition that designed inanimate objects imply any relationship to biology is not only unreasonable but also completely wrong.People assume the sign had to be designed even though it is very simple. But somehow, the trillions of times more complex turtle is a product of chance events and self-assembly.
No ... this is simply consistent with being uninformed.The world should be filled with transitional forms if evolution was correct. It is not. The fossil record shows species suddenly appear fully formed, persist unchanged, then die. This is consistent with design, totally at odds with evolution.
Everything is just atoms in a particular arrangement, including the sign and the turtle, according to darwinism. All atoms are "inanimate".
Do the atoms in the turtle have different properties than those in the sign?
The arrangement in the sign is simple compared to the arrangement in the turtle.
Yet somehow the simpler arrangement is assumed to be designed (and even foolish to think it evolved over time; why?), while even suggesting the vastly more intricate turtle is designed is taken as laughable and uninformed.
Such reaction to an obvious question is due to a hole in people's thinking caused by indoctrination with evolutionary dogma and ego-based fear of the answer.
It takes incredible faith to believe in evolution. Why not follow the evidence, wherever it leads.
Points 1-3 are just parsing assertions.
As for the rest, an example of the evidence for the "supernatural" entity is the origin of space-time from nothing. Everything that has a beginning has a cause. If not, give an example.
Since space-time had a beginning, it had to be caused something itself not defined by space-time. Something outside of time (i.e., eternal by definition), having no cause or beginning itself. This coincides with the usual definition of supernatural.
Other evidence includes the precision of the set of physical parameters required for the universe to be viable, as well as the improbable complexity called life.
This can be learned by experience as well as from books. It's evolution that can only be learned about from books -- you can't experience Darwinian evolution or see it. It's an act of pure faith to believe it: life came from non-life, the universe created itself from nothing, consciousness came from non-consciousness. All things that experience says don't happen.
"Scientific laws" are crude approximations that have a half-life of about 5 years before they are replaced with another approximation. Sometimes they don't make it past the filing of the conference travel report, the primary motivator of modern science. Don't bet the house on the persistence or truth of "scientific law".
The universe exists as a continuous act of will. Consistency -- what we call it's "scientific laws" of functioning -- is important so that dependent beings can learn and understand.
But miracles are just as consistent with that act of will as "scientific law". The apparent difference is that "scientific law" does not penetrate to the underlying purpose and superficially skips along the surface.
That is, the universe is not about patterns in nature but about the will of the creator of which those patterns are an expression, just as miracles are.
How about the universe? If your assertion were true, then you'd making the claim that God is the example that has no beginning. Therefore, if one thing can fulfill that requirement, there is nothing that says that it be the thing you select.Everything that has a beginning has a cause. If not, give an example.
You've obviously been quite out of touch if you believe this. However, when it's all said and done, you've got a much bigger requirement to "prove" your claims, than science does. Science has long demonstrated its ability to produce results. Simply making assertions about the supernatural doesn't make them true. In fact, I would suggest that you have even less evidence for any supernatural phenomenon occurring in the world. Perhaps when the various religions can actually agree on the main principles, they could lay claim to some uniform explanation. However, in the absence of such agreement it would be absurd to suggest that religion offers anything resembling an explanation for the universe."Scientific laws" are crude approximations that have a half-life of about 5 years before they are replaced with another approximation. Sometimes they don't make it past the filing of the conference travel report, the primary motivator of modern science. Don't bet the house on the persistence or truth of "scientific law".
So you think the distinction between atoms and molecules is simply "parsing assertions"? Well if that's the case, then show some respect, because those "parsed assertions" are largely responsible for the quality of life you enjoy today.I didn't make up the distinction between animate and inanimate. The Darwinist did. Points 1-3 are just parsing assertions.
Please read Genesis, esp. 1:11 1:20 1:24 in which it is clear that there was nothing plant or animate at first, only earth, air, water and light. This conflicts with neither the big bang theory nor the theory of evolution by natural selection.
Please also read Gen 1:16
"And god made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; ... "
Anyone who believes that Genesis is literal truth must be a troglodyte, a dweller in caves, since the moon is frequently visible in broad daylight. Quo warranto?
Perhaps there is hope for science:
"Michael Windham, 10, and Matthew Beckwith, 11, came to the museum Saturday to see the fossil. The boys decided they wanted to be scientists after seeing the artifact."
http://www.adn.com/news/education/story/684214.html
Genesis 1:2
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Genesis 1:6-7
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which wereabove the firmament: and it was so
If God only made small-e-earth then you must be right. But perhaps He made big-e-Earth. Big-e-Earth seen from space is a predominantly watery
If only homo nomenclatoris had named his mineral and water home 'Domus Terremaris' we would not be facing this great difficulty of the nominal determinism of the inferential properties of the verbal state of matter. :)
Footnote:
Re: 2 + 2 = 5
2 + 2 = an indeterminate number.
Explanation:
'2' means 'any collection formed of two things'
In maths, all 'things' are numbers.
'2' means 'any collection formed of two numbers'
There are infinitely many numbers.
2 + 2 = 2(N) + 2(N) where N is any number.
2 + 2 is an indeterminate number
q.e.d.










Way to lie twice in your first two paragraphs. Here's a link to an article that doesn't seem dead set on fibbing.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html
"She did not demand that books be banned from the Wasilla library. Some of the books on a widely circulated list were not even in print at the time. The librarian has said Palin asked a "What if?" question, but the librarian continued in her job through most of Palin's first term."
Palin has not pushed for teaching creationism in Alaska's schools. She has said that students should be allowed to "debate both sides" of the evolution question, but she also said creationism "doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."
Palin isn't good, but for reasons that you don't have to make up. (or read and mistakenly believe.)