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By Massimo Pigliucci | May 4th 2008 07:08 PM | 19 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Massimo Pigliucci

Massimo Pigliucci is Professor in the Departments of Ecology & Evolution and of Philosophy at Stony Brook University, NY.

His research is on the evolution of genotype-environment interactions


... Full Bio

My colleague at the University of California-Irvine, Francisco Ayala, has been interviewed recently by the New York Times about his views on science and religion. Ayala is particularly suitable for the task, being a former Dominican priest and one of the world’s best known evolutionary biologists. I happen to agree with much of what Ayala said in the interview, but of course I will be focusing here on where I depart from his positions.

In the interview and in his latest book, Darwin’s Gift to Science and Religion, Ayala correctly points out that one of the many problems with the idea of Intelligent Design is that there is plenty of evidence that the universe isn’t well designed at all (this, of course, is not a new observation: both David Hume and Charles Darwin based their critique of the design argument on it). To quote Ayala: “Consider that at least 20 percent of pregnancies are known to end in spontaneous abortion. If that results from divinely inspired anatomy God is the greatest abortionist of them all.” Ouch.

But then Ayala turns around and provides an apparently elegant, but in fact deeply flawed, solution to the infamous “problem of evil”: “As floods and drought were a necessary consequence of the fabric of the physical world, predators and parasites, dysfunctions and diseases were a consequence of the evolution of life, they were not a result of a deficient or malevolent design.”

Bingo, Darwin gets God off the hook!

But, wait, what exactly is the logic of this argument? Why are floods, droughts, predators and diseases a necessary component of the world? And even so, this seems to imply that God isn’t directly responsible for natural evil (human-caused evil falls into a different category altogether), because he didn’t design living beings one by one, he just set in motion the laws of the universe.

OK, but doesn’t a God who picks the laws of physics and biology bear some responsibility for their outcome, however indirectly? Is He not all-powerful, all-good and all-knowing? I mean, when a human-made bridge collapses we still investigate whether the engineers who designed it have some reasonable degree of culpability (or whether, ironically, it was an “act of God”). Perhaps God cannot be accused of genocide, but how about at least manslaughter? (Over and over and over again, of course...)

I would have expected a better effort from a scientist who has the additional insight of being a former priest, hence familiar with so-called theological arguments. But the fact is that it is next to impossible to come up with any better excuse for God, and when one wishes at all costs to reconcile its existence with what we know of the universe, one is bound to run afoul of elementary logic.

Of course, Ayala may actually be an atheist and simply not want to get embroiled in a Dawkins-like media frenzy. When asked by the NYT reporter what his belief is, Ayala coyly replied: “I don’t want to be tagged, by one side or the other.”

Yes, Francisco, but what about intellectual honesty?

Comments

Pigliucci misses the fact that we Christians alway argue that the problem of evil is a necessary attribute of God creating mankind as free moral agents. Also, the Bible says that not only humans received consequences for sin but their environment too was subject to a curse. The Christian explanation for evil and things gone askew with the world is still the most logical and consistent worldview. He has no proof of his worldview unless Pigliucci can find the source of the big bang floating in outer space... when he does it will be floating next to its creator, GOD.

OK Indoica, if you want to, you can say Big Bang is the most greatest expression of existence of God. I could accept it (if it makes you happy), but don't try to go any further.
If evolution is a too simple process you mind can't take, or you could not accept that not even God could set up such as simple (and genialis) rules to run life on universe, or that evil and good are relative concepts to each other, no way...!!!: You'd better stay home reading the Bible...!!!

Good and evil are like black and white, one is the abscence of the other. Your worldview should have an answer for this very observable feature of mankind. Whether or not GOD used the process of evolution at least my system explains it's origin, what's your source. My world view offers answers yours asks more questions.

aaanouel's picture
"Black" an "White" are relative to each other concepts. Not even if you have a 2 bits monitor, the "Black" you see, is not such a "Black", neither the "White": They're states of grays you perceive as "black or white" just in contrast or contraposition to each other on your screen. That's the way perception process works. All you have in front of your eyes is a wide gamma of states of the light, lights and shadows your mind understands as objects. If you see the world (you think is) outside you, thought colored glasses or discard color information (not even black & white, but gray scale), you won't ever get the complete information to logically fully understand anything and even less to carry out the truth of anything. Bad is to use 2 bit lenses, but even worst is senselessly avoid seeing facts just because they don't fix in our limited preformed ideas. Limited by definition, mind have to live the necessity of understanding the universe that surrounds it and science makes questions related to the facts and variables that truly rule the events to get practical answers. That's what Science is all about. Gods have nothing to do with it. But If you have too fixed ideas, make wrong questions (comparing oranges to apples), you are too lazy or not flexible enough to rearrange your believing (what others made you believe in) in a realistic way according to reality, you are condemned to live in a "Black & White" world, the way you seem to be satisfied, living and defending... isn't it?. So, could you open you eyes just a little please...!!! In other hand, philosophically (or religiously) speaking... There are no questions to answer... Stop judging, stop wondering, just open and sharp your perception and mind (conscience) will be able to be clearly fulfilled with the wonder and truthful universe you are immersed and being part of, as a whole unity... and there... even God gets its place. P.D.: Please forgive my english: it's is not my mother language.
igliucci misses the fact
Submitted by Indoica (not verified) on 5 May 2008 - 3:21am.

Pigliucci misses the fact that we Christians alway argue that the problem of evil is a necessary attribute of God creating mankind as free moral agents.

Also, the Bible says that not only humans received consequences for sin but their environment too was subject to a curse. The Christian explanation for evil and things gone askew with the world is still the most logical and consistent worldview. He has no proof of his worldview unless Pigliucci can find the source of the big bang floating in outer space... when he does it will be floating next to its creator, GOD.

How nice, perhaps he intentionally skipped that bit of convoluted argument simply because it is so pathetically self serving in its triteness...An all powerful god that is given latitude by the same organisms that dreamed him up in the fist place, thereby allows anything to be condemned or condoned dependent upon current cultural acceptances... Your god is man made. Get over it.

Human beings often fall into the trap of judging events as being good or evil, concepts which are our own invention. Worse, we are arrogant enough to hold God accountable to these arbitrary ways of seeing things and wonder why it doesn't work.

aaanouel's picture
Good for you...!!!!!!! Few but precise words...!!! Excellent.
God made a perfect world and gave mankind freedom on how to live. He gave them a choice to follow or not follow Him. The results has been corruption and destruction of the world. Yet God also had from the beginning a plan to save man and the world. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die and be raised from the dead to save the world from the corruption of sin. When Jesus returns all will be made perfect.
Yes God is responsible in allowing for sin and corruption in the world to occur in the first place, but He has a plan to correct it at His own expense. All man has to do is follow Him. Evolution still has false answers because there is no link, not even close between animals and humans.

aaanouel's picture
What are you talking about...? Some kind of superstition perhaps...? Did you miss the URL to post your comment...?
Congratulations...!!!
Somebody have to stop all that naive, selfish and senseless believing on Gods taking care of all the universe.

Let me encourage you to keep going on, in the name of all the people (like me) that does not have the time, determination or weapons to fight with all this new kind of irrationality. If not for people like you, the whole developed world could* fall in a new obscurantism era.

As a joke, let me give you an answer to disarm any senseless position: What a lack of ignorance, sir...!!!

*And still possible... Just take a look on the new irrational communism arise in south-america from the wide extended "democratic" ignorance: All votes count equally...!!! so do not let ignorance to extend any little more.

It always amazes me to see how convoluted and circular reasoning can be reapplied by ignorant theists again and again again....
The real crime that YOUR god committed when he made us...[ this is, made me, I'm a male, so you females will be excused at this point since your not qualified to speak for yourselves do to the omniscient gods knowledge...] and that is the fact that every generation must re-learn its moral and ethical lessons anew; regardless of the many many many insights provided by secular philosophers and visionaries.

Keep up the "good" work christian soldiers!

Most of the questions about "God" in this article is based on the assumption, that a dualistic concept of God is the only possible one: That God is some kind of entity which is separate from the universe - controlling it from the "outside" (whatever that might be).

But there are other possibilities. Like Pantheism?

I know that many Christians would say that pantheism is in conflict with the Christian concept of God. But I think there is good reason to think about this. Considering the really strange nature of reality, as shown by Quantum Mechanics, you cannot say that pantheism is the same thing today, can you?

mogmich- The problem here is that the xtian perspective is in power. That was, and is, its primary goal. There will be no relinguishing of their dogma because to do so would admit to an existence other than the fairy tale.

It sounds as if your talking of the concept of the "god of Einstien" as he put it forth...willingness to accept that other possibilities exist, but by no means willing to describe and place limits...a good scientific approach.
There is simply no good reason to denigrate our minds and our self respect to something as foolish as the many religious concepts of supernatural nonsense... \

Its emotional tripe, cloaked in culture, passed on like a virus. period.

Davot, I think it is always a bad idea to mix your views on religion directly with scientific subjects. Not only as most Christians do, but also some radical atheists.

In various discussions I have seen Christians use the argument that since the universe is "fine-tuned for life" it must have been fine-tuned by God. Although this is not directly in conflict with science (unlike creationism and ID) the consequence might be that you choose the wrong scientific theory (where there is more than one possibility).

But I have also seen radical atheists argue, that the multiverse theory must be correct because it is the theory that fits the atheist view best.

This "argument" is just as bad, I think. Whether there is a God or not, is no argument for a given theory.

Another thing: I don't think that a universe (multiverse) that is 100 pct. determined necessarily excludes some kind of free will for an observer in a world. But that's another question...

Mogmich... I really don't follow what your trying to present here... I agree that science and religion do not mix well, I also remain true to original posts, don't attempt to inject any one particular scientific premise over another in respect to debunking Xtian nonsense... D.

Davot, I am only expressing the view, that it is not only science and religion that do not mix well, but also science and radical atheism.

I mentioned Cosmology and Quantum Mechanics only as an example of this.

The connection to the original post is, that it is my impression this might be the reason why Ayala didn't want to answer the question. Maybe he just wants to keep radical atheism at a distance? (as well as certain religious views).

Ok, True radical Atheism is likely endorsed by so few a number as to merit a less than .01% influence in scientific circles becasue its primary goal, the reason it is radical, is to combat theistic zealots, the ying and yang of of the equation if you will. Think on it, if there was no forms of radical theistic nonsense, of suicide bombers, of 9-11 planners and doers of similar ilk, would the term and associated actions of a radical atheist even have a need to exist?
I say nay.

I agree, that the danger to science comes from religion, and not from atheism, especially in USA (Creationism, ID etc.)

To an American the question of radical atheists arguing the way I mentioned, is probably less important (in the general discussion about religion).

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