At any rate, Sagan’s essays are about the relationship between science and religion from a point of view very different from that of James. At the same time, it is so refreshing to read the words of a positive atheist, which do not in the least resemble the angry and inflated rhetoric of a Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins. On the contrary, Sagan’s tone is always measured and humble, and yet he delivers (metaphorically) mortal blow after mortal blow to the religious in his audience.
The science in the book is unavoidably a bit dated (though Druyan added notes here and there to update a few of the statements of fact). Then again, these essays are not about science per se, but about the meaning of science in our lives, and its conflict with the religious mind set. There are many precious passages that deserve thoughtful consideration, but one in particular struck me early on in the book (chapter 1). Sagan is talking about the sheer vastness of space: about a hundred billion stars just in our own galaxy, the Milky Way, which is one of more than 400 billion galaxies in the universe. That universe measures 46.5 billion light years across, and contains something of the order of 10 to the 80 atoms. Oh, and most of it is either empty or filled with dark stuff that is not part of galaxies, stars or planets.
After contemplating all this for a moment, Sagan says: “And this vast number of worlds, the enormous scale of the universe, in my view has been taken into account, even superficially, in virtually no religion, and especially no Western religions.” That seems exactly right, and something that is hardly discussed even in debates between atheists and theists: human religions are completely oblivious to the enormity of space. There is much talk about “intelligent design” and “anthropic principles” and other fanciful notions concocted to convince us that there is scientific evidence that this whole shebang was put in place by someone just so that we would eventually appear (and what a beautiful result he got for all his efforts!).
But Sagan’s observation makes it very clear that these people have no idea in what sort of place we really live. As Douglas Adams famously put it in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy: “Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the drug store, but that's just peanuts to space.” Indeed. What sort of intelligent engineer would create a contraption (the universe) that takes upwards of 13 billion years to generate Homo sapiens, all the while wasting 99.999999999999+ percent of the space in the universe? Or maybe, suggests Sagan, this vast amount of space and time hasn’t been wasted, and God has created many other worlds with people. But in that case, did Jesus come and die on the cross in every single one of them? Are there separate Hells and Heavens for different species of ET? The theological implications are staggering, and yet completely unaddressed.
Ah, the religious will say, but who are we to question God’s plan? He (or she, or it, as Sagan repeatedly writes) notoriously works in mysterious ways. But that is the ultimate cop out. It is simply a fancy, and frankly insulting, way to say “I haven’t the foggiest idea.” People have a right to believe whatever inane story they like to believe (as long as they do not try to impose it on others), but many religious people since Thomas Aquinas actually want to argue that their beliefs are also rational, that there is no contradiction between the book of nature and those of scripture. If so, then they need to answer Sagan’s question about why it is that the so-called holy books don’t tell us anything at all about how the universe really is.
Sagan imagines how God could have dictated his books to the ancient prophets in a way that would have certainly made an impact on us moderns. He could have said (I’m quoting Sagan directly here): “Don’t forget, Mars is a rusty place with volcanoes. ... You’ll understand this later. Trust me. ... How about, ‘Thou shalt not travel faster than light?’ ... Or ‘There are no privileged frames of reference.’ Or how about some equations? Maxwell’s laws in Egyptian hieroglyphics or ancient Chinese characters or ancient Hebrew.” Now that would be impressive, and even Dawkins would have to scratch his head at it. But no, instead we find trivial stories about local tribes, a seemingly endless series of “begats,” and a description of the world as small, young, and rather flat.
Sagan’s challenge is virtually ignored by theologians the world over. And for good reason: it is impossible to answer coherently while retaining the core of most religious traditions. The various gods people worship are simply far too small for the universe we actually inhabit, which is no surprise once we accept the rather obvious truth that it is us who made the gods in our image, not the other way around. We miss you, Carl.
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After contemplating all this for a moment, Sagan says: “And this vast
number of worlds, the enormous scale of the universe, in my view has
been taken into account, even superficially, in virtually no religion,
and especially no Western religions.” That seems exactly right, and
something that is hardly discussed even in debates between atheists and
theists: human religions are completely oblivious to the enormity of
space.
From evolution to the Copernican revolution, religion has constantly been bashed for assuming that the world revolves around humans in various ways.
But Christianity and Western science, I'd argue, could share some common virtues, namely the disposition of humility in one's pursuits. In religion it's the infinite power&wisdom of God in comparison to man, and in science it's man's infinitely small place in the universe. Granted this isn't always how religion or science works, but there's an underlying sort of ego-less similarity when it comes to carrying out God's & the true pursuit of science. In a sense the same impenetrable mental space between man & god has been reconstituted as physical space between man & the universe.
Or for a more concrete comparison, consider that rigorous theological study has been the pinnacle of Western intellectual efforts for much longer than science has. The technical virtuoso seen in works such as those by Aquinas is not unlike those in modern scientific works, although the assumptions vastly differ. That frame of thought my seem primitive in comparison to modern science, but no doubt much of what is written today will quickly become outdated, and before we know it seem almost as primitive as well.
…it is so refreshing to read the words of a positive atheist, which do not in the least resemble the angry and inflated rhetoric of a Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins. On the contrary, Sagan’s tone is always measured and humble, and yet he delivers (metaphorically) mortal blow after mortal blow to the religious in his audience.
Yes, Carl did indeed intelligently and effectively expose the nonsensical nature of many aspects of conventional religions. But the reason his tone is so different from atheist writers, is he was not an atheist, in my opinion. I have not found anywhere in his writings where he has identified himself as an atheist. He sounds to me very much like an agnostic (not a small difference).
In The Demon Haunted World, Carl wrote:
“The very act of understanding is a celebration of joining, merging, even if on a very modest scale, with the magnificence of the Cosmos.”
“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.”
Carl’s tone and attitude regarding religion sounds much like Einstein’s, except Einstein was more direct in that he specifically identified himself as very religious in the Cosmic sense. Einstein identified himself as agnostic at times, but never as atheist. Yet he too dispatched much of the nonsense of conventional religions.
Religious works have no more need to mention physical science than have history books.
But they do mention physical science, and that’s the problem! Many Christians have tried to debunk Darwinian and neo-Darwinian evolution and replace it with “Creation Science” and “Intelligent Design” because Darwinian evolution does not jibe with their Bible. Apparently so many people have been duped into believing this kind of irrational crapola that the Christians made the difference in getting an ignoramous named George W. Bush elected as president.
It’s important that we make our decisions based upon reality, not upon fairy tales. That’s why the writings of people like Carl Sagan are important.
So you didn't vote for B. H. Obama then?
In Obadiah 4 there is a description of a nation that exalts themselves as an eagle and sets their nest among the stars. I'll let you contemplate the meaning of that verse.
The point I'm making is this; the assumption that the Bible is some outdated mythical writ is absolutely wrong and anyone who makes statements based on that presupposition (of its contents rather than a thorough study) shows a basic flaw in their research abilities, which by the way, makes one wonder about their actual scientific knowledge.
When the Bible first mentions God in Genesis 1:1, God is from the Hebrew "Elohim" - a word which is also translated in the plural, i.e. 'gods', like in Exodus 20:3, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."). "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..." - Genesis 1:26
I'm not talking about polytheism, but the Godhead, who exists as a triune being. When you look at the Sun for example, you see one light source. Yet there are three different kinds of light radiating from it. Or you have an egg, but there is the outer shell, the white and the yolk. Three in one. King David prophecied about it this way: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." - Psalm 110:1 In the Gospels
"Jesus asked them, saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? " - Matthew 22:41-45.
Luke also recorded this in his gospel; Luke 20:41-44 and Peter talks about this in Acts 2:33-35.
Answer: The lives and deaths of the disciples. They had no reason to perpetuate a lie, which cost them everything without gaining anything. They willingly gave up their wealth, positions in society, their authority, their families, and suffered unspeakable horrors, deprivations, imprisonment, torture and death simply to tell people that Jesus Christ came not to condemn the world but to offer free and full salvation. That is incontrovertible proof for the existence of Christ and testimonial proof of His divine nature.
Now let me ask you a question...The Romans crucified Christ and both they and the Jews took extraordinary effrorts to secure the body of Jesus to prevent his predicted resurrection. Where's the body? If you could come up with the body of Jesus Christ, Christianity would collapse. The Jews spent the first 40 years after Christ's resurrection trying to stop Christianity in its tracks. All they would have had to do is produce the body of Christ. All attempts to stop Christianity through the centuries have failed but all that is needed is for somebody to scientifically produce the dead Jesus. They can't and so Christianity remains the only faith where it's founder defeated death.
You can ask Jesus to reveal himself to you and I wouldn't be surprised if He did. Ask Him for proof if you're really willing to take Him as your savior and Lord when He does. If you're not willing, then don't waste your time.
Not at all!
This is from the Bible book of Job, perhaps the most ancient writing in the Bible.
The Water Cycle :
Job 36:27-29 - "For He draws up the drops of water, they distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down, they drip upon man abundantly. Can anyone understand the spreading of the clouds, the thundering of His pavilion? "
That's way more specific than Taoism and was written over a thousand years before Lao-tzu, the founder of Taoism.
Since then I've engaged you in other proofs that Sagan's statements are patently false. Are you aware that the Bible also speaks about air pressure, also in the book of Job?
Job 28:23-28 - "For He (God) looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. "When He imparted *weight to the wind and meted out the waters by measure, when He set a limit for the rain and a course for the thunderbolt, then He saw it and declared it; He established it and also searched it out." The air flows from high pressure to low pressure producing wind.
Over two thousand years after Job, Evangelista Torricelli (1608 – 1647) invented the barometer (1643) while using mercury in a glass tube in an attempt to create a vacuum. He noticed that the mercury level in the tube changed and deduced it was caused by changes in atmospheric pressure. (First called Torricelli’s tube, when working with Galileo in Florence, Italy).
As I mentioned, Job is one of the oldest writings in the Bible, pre-dates many, if not all Eastern religions and stands up in the light of the combined knowledge of the centuries. For example, this verse also mentions 'the course for the thunderbolt.' Today it's common knowledge that electron flow always follows a 'course' or the path of least resistance - but in Job's day, civilization was still over two thousand years away from that knowledge.
The whole article by Massimo Pigliucci is a poor effort to discredit the Bible and glorify Carl Sagan, a man who let his presuppositions guide his thinking.
R. Hoeppner, I for one am glad that Sagan was a clear thinker and he added a richness to the thinking of people that have read his books. If anything, you are allowing your presuppositions to guide your thinking with little or no evidence for the claims of science you make on behalf of the Bible. If you think you have a large list of science from the Bible, why don't you submit an article to ScientificBlogging under your name?
R. Hoeppner, I may be wrong, but this blog is not a forum for arguing pro or con about religion. There are other blogs that are made especially for that.
But since dear old Carl has departed this earth, I'm sure he'd change some of his beliefs if he could.
That's one reason I'm glad the reformation took place, aren't you?.
I don't use, won't use and never did use. I don't need such a crutch! However Carl Sagan made no secret of the fact that he did use and even gained many of his ideas when he was under the influence. How sad.
I believe that his widow is a strong advocate of legalizing the drug. If you need a drug to get you through life then I feel sad for you. Besides it is well known here in America that marijuana is a 'gateway' drug that leads to the use of more addictive and dangerous drugs. So what do you really think about that?
The Bible is the only ancient book that says the stars cannot be numbered and compares them to the sand of the sea shore. The Bible also speaks of the water cycle, wind and ocean currents and as far as North America consider this... "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place," could that be a reference to the polar ice cap?
You pick out a few words from the Bible that very vaguely correspond to what we now know is scientifically true of nature, and present them as some sort of proof that the Bible is factually valid. How about the many passages in the Bible that contradict scientific reality?
For example, how about the Noah’s Ark story? Is that valid? Did God, only a few thousand years ago, flood the entire planet for something like a YEAR, killing all humans and animals except Noah and his family? Do you realize how many species of animals had to accounted for on that boat? How about a years worth of food for them all? No refrigeration, so how did Noah maintain all of that food? Do you realize how big the boat would have to be for both the animals and their food? Did Noah and his family take care of all of the special diets, and clean out all the manure and urine every day? After the ark landed, how about the problem of inbreeding for both animals and humans? We apparently must all be related to Noahs family, all 6.5 billion of us, various races and all, right?
I don't use, won't use and never did use [marijuana]. I don't need such a crutch!
George Bush is typical of many Christians in that he used the crutch of alcohol, then switched to Christianity. Make no mistake – fundamentalist Christianity is a crutch! To those who adopt it, it is a pleasant delusion. And since it diverts people from reality, it is dangerous.
There are many reasons to believe the flood story, just as there are many reasons to believe there was no universal flood. The evidence is the same but the interpretations are different depending on the world view....
Since you think the Bible is chock full of science, why don't you write up an article for ScientificBlogging? You do know that all the items that you pointed out were taken from a creationist web-site, right?
I'd warmly suggest everybody to read*:
"Hsin Hsin Ming" (The book of nothing)
also known as "Verses on the Faith Mind"
by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an. Third Zen Patriarch (606AD).
...
To deny the reality of things
is to miss their reality;
to assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking,
and there is nothing you will not be able to know...
...
Words!
The Way is beyond language,
for in it there is
no yesterday
no tomorrow
no today.
_____________________________________________________________
... and may it be all these ten thousand words Aki Toumaala and repliers are spending get their right place: No where...
_____________________________________________________________
* One version: http://www.deeshan.com/sosan.htm
The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking,
and there is nothing you will not be able to know...
For your own peace of mind, I'd warmly suggest you to read* and absorb: "Hsin Hsin Ming".
_______________________________________________________
* One version in: http://www.deeshan.com/sosan.htm










