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By Massimo Pigliucci | February 12th 2009 10:14 AM | 49 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Massimo Pigliucci

Massimo Pigliucci is Professor in the Departments of Ecology & Evolution and of Philosophy at Stony Brook University, NY.

His research is on the evolution of genotype-environment interactions


... Full Bio

This is the year of Darwin (yes, yes, it’s also the year of astronomy, I know), and especially this week -- around the date of Chuck’s birth -- we are seeing a spike of events, radio and tv pieces, and printed articles. (Expect a second peak in November, for the anniversary of the publication of Origin of Species.)

One of the most schizophrenic treatments of the topic surely is the one published this week by Forbes magazine. They have a number of solid pieces by recognized scientists and science writers (for instance by evo-devo researcher Sean Carroll, philosopher Michael Ruse, and writer Michael Shermer).

But they also have four, I repeat four, insanely anti-intellectual articles by pro-ID writers: Ken Ham (the “CEO” of Answers in Genesis and founder of the oxymoronic Creation Museum in Kentucky), John West (the hack author of Darwin Day in America), Jonathan Wells (the infamous author of Icons of Evolution), and my colleague here at Stony Brook, Neurosurgery Vice Chairman Michael Egnor. I will ignore the first three because I have dealt with them on numerous occasions in the past, and concentrate instead on Egnor.

He begins his piece by stating that
As an undergraduate biochemistry major, I was uncomfortable with Darwinian explanations for biological complexity. Living things certainly appeared to be designed.


That’s a bad enough reflection on undergraduate science education in the United States at the time (alas, it ain’t much better today, in this respect), but the fact that Egnor persists in such a naive way of thinking today, as a professor of neurosurgery is really a shame (for him and for Stony Brook).

Egnor goes on trotting out the same old tired creationist “objections” to evolution. The fossil record has discontinuities (yes, it does, and they have been shown over and over to be perfectly compatible with evolution, considering the time scales involved); biomolecules are so complex that they couldnt possibly have originated naturally (an argument from ignorance, both in the philosophical sense and in the personal sense that Egnor is obviously ignorant about molecular evolution); the genetic “code” couldn’t exist without design, because only intelligent beings produce codes (an astounding example of taking a metaphor literally instead of looking at the perfectly explicable biochemistry of nucleic acids). Then Egnor proceeds by asking what he seems to think are devastating questions for “evolutionists.” Let’s take a look.

Why do Darwinists claim that intelligent design theory isn't scientific, when both intelligent design and Darwinism are merely the affirmative and negative answers to the same scientific question: Is there evidence for teleology in biology?

This betrays Egnor’s ignorance of the nature of science. The question of teleology in biology is most certainly not a scientific question, it is a philosophical one. And “Darwinism” is not a negative answer to that question, it is a positive answer to the question of how adaptive complexity originated during the history of life on earth.

Why do Darwinists -- scientists -- seek recourse in federal courts to silence criticism of their theory in public schools?

Because the issue is one of government-mandated separation of Church and State and school board-regulated criteria for what should be taught in science classrooms. The creation-evolution debate is not a scientific debate, it is a social controversy, and as such it naturally, if unfortunately, involves court challenges.

What is it about the Darwinian understanding of biological origins that is so fragile that it will not withstand scrutiny by schoolchildren?

Are you kidding? Schoolchildren do not understand plenty of other solidly established science either. For instance, many children (and a good number of adults) seem to think of the world in terms of Aristotelian, not Newtonian (let alone relativistic) physics. Should we ban Sir Isaac from science curriculum as a result?

Egnor ends his piece with a long whine about how he has been vilified on the internet (well, join the club, dude), and how “fundamentalist atheists” have called for him to be fired. I don’t know how good a neurosurgeon Egnor is, but I assume he is good enough to have obtained his post at Stony Brook. As such, he should retain it. But if he were in my Department (Ecology&Evolution) I most certainly wouldcall for him to be booted out immediately on the grounds that he doesn’t understand the basic foundations of the science in which he is supposed to carry out scholarship and which he should be able to teach to students.

This isn’t a matter of “ostracism” or “intolerance” (rather ironic terms when they come from creationists), it is a matter of intellectual honesty.

I don’t subscribe to the Dawkins-style attack on creationists (amply quoted by Egnor, of course), which he calls “ignorant, stupid, insane … or wicked.” Most creationists are none of the last three (though ignorance often does play a role. But then again, I’m just as ignorant of neurosurgery). But Egnor, Ham, Wells, West and especially the editors of Forbes should understand once and for all that evolution is to biology what relativity or quantum mechanics are to physics, what the big bang is to cosmology, or what the atomic theory is to chemistry.

Evolution is a scientific fact as solid as they come, and a scientific theory as well established as any other scientific theory is. Creationism and its cousin intelligent design are primitive ideas that were reasonable enough in a pre-scientific society, but do not have a respectable place at the table of intellectual discourse anymore. It’s time to get used to it.

Comments

..and if we don't like it you will take your ball and go home!! Good Lord Massimo..your bias is showing.

Gerhard Adam's picture
There can't be bias against when only one scientific viewpoint is being discussed.

...your kidding me right Gerhard??? The bias comes through rather clearly when opined in response to his "fellow" Prof and is tossed under the bus and marginalized to the point of "dismissal" should this poor sap be assigned to his department. Even the great Massimo has declared that "evolution is a scientific fact"!!! Should we expect anything less from the likes of this gent who presides over the....what is that place??? Ecology & Evolution and of Philosophy and Basket Weavers of Stony Brook Farms. Do not let this guy off campus...

...oh...sorry forgot to fill in the fields...laughing too much.

Perry

Gerhard Adam's picture

Actually I'm not.  It gets tiresome listening to supposedly educated people fail to offer up lucid theories or explanations and instead simply resort to their religious beliefs.  For some reason, it seems to be acceptable that people that know little about biology should be able to dismiss decades of research and discovery with a wave of the hand.  They wouldn't dream of doing it in physics, chemistry or mathematics, but for some reason they are arrogant enough to think that their opinion is more meaningful in biology.  As I've stated before, I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they like, but let's not pretend that there's the slightest modicum of scientific credence to such a position.

You and I have been around this discussion long enough to know that you aren't prepared to modify your viewpoints, nor will I modify mine.  However, I don't owe anyone's belief system equal time simply because they think it's true.  While it is also true that you aren't obligated to believe evolutionary theory, that doesn't automatically mean that your perspective is credible.  I've had people argue that they didn't believe Einstein's theories, despite the fact that they couldn't even tell you what a quadratic equation was.  So I'm quite familiar with the levels of misunderstanding and opinion that pervade public opinion.


Just for the record, I also don't buy the argument that evolution and "creation science" should be given equal time in school.  I personally don't think either one should be taught, since it isn't a subject that should be based on opinion (and please don't suggest that biology is simply opinion because you know better).  Bear in mind that no one has ever suggested that biology is infallable and anyone willing to dedicate the time to research has the opportunity to introduce new theories and ideas that fit the data, but they cannot now or ever, simply make up whatever idea suits their fancy and expect it to be taken seriously within scientific circles. 



...dang Gerhard, is someone keeping a record of this stuff??

What about the theory of unintelligent design. I am a big fan of the theory of the unintelligent and probably stoned creator because there is building up more and more evidence against both the theory of Intelligent design and Evolution.
The last proof is the Histiophryne psychedelica that is just to silly and stupid to be created by any intelligent designer or and sort of adaptive process.

Hank's picture
I don't agree about evidence 'against' evolution, since explaining the world is what science is all about and a mystery here and there is good, but I get where you are going.  I similar skepticism about the SETI project, for example, yet the WETI project has been much more realistic and has therefore been wildly successful.

WETI

...of "course" you wouldn't agree about evidence against evolution, it is a faith that is dear to your heart. You should go back to the other picture my brother...The World can "attempt" to be explained by science Hank but unless you plan on being immortal most of what makes the World operate will not be revealed in your lifetime or in the life of the cute kid your holding (must take after the mother)...

...I am not surprised that you are a fan of the theory of the "unintelligent" that makes perfect sense.

Gerhard Adam's picture
"The World can "attempt" to be explained by science Hank but unless you plan on being immortal most of what makes the World operate will not be revealed in your lifetime or in the life...."
 
That's certainly a disingenous statement considering how much of the world was "explained" by the religious viewpoint.

...how the World is "understood" is not the same as being "explained"...but you should already know that right?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Your words ... not mine.

...early on in the beginning of our exchanges I posed a question that has been studied in depth and the mystery remains. You might recall the transformation of a caterpillar to a Butterfly question. the most learned Scientist's in the World still do not have a cintilla of explanation in regards to this happening. This function happens every year at a predictable time with multiple millions of examples to survey...still zero explanation. Is there not reems of other examples with similar outcomes? There are times where there are deminishing returns in a planned study where the dead ends remain even with the advent of skills and methods like those of Michael White to no avail. One day someone indeed might discover the pathway and or the reason...but the truth of this matter is possible generations of people will begin and pass the torch of study as they die. Every question presumes an answer but not every questioner will be satisfied with one...so the search will continue.

Gerhard Adam's picture

Sorry, but that is a complete fantasy.  The metamorphosis is being studied and continues to be studied and continues to provide new information and insights.  To suggest otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of the work in the field.


Your point about questions is immaterial, since to suggest that the lack of ALL the answers implies anything other than incomplete knowledge is pointless.  If your aim is to suggest that science is not complete, you won't get an argument from anyone on this site.  To suggest that it somehow implies that this information is unknowable is presumptious.



...you calling my comment a complete fantasy simply does not make it one, as the mystery remains intact. I guess "dead ends" do indeed provide "new" information but so far it has "NOT" lead to any conclusion. There is no ignorance here unless I have missed the news article claiming the mystery solved.

There "is" a point to make known that there are a mountain of questions that lack answers as the over bloated Evolutionary/Scientists would have us believe otherwise...you as well. I need not "suggest" that science is not complete...it's a fact! Nothing is "unknowable" unless an answer is not to be found, so the descriptive word "unknowable" remains "until" the answer is known...that also is a fact. Presumption is touting a theory as being a fact without proof...but don't tell Massimo, he might lose his Ecology card.

Gerhard Adam's picture
No one has ever suggested that the complete answers were available to science, not in evolutionary biology, physics, chemistry, etc.  To even imply that complete answers would be available would pretty well signal the death of science and move everything into the field of engineering and technology.

My point is that you never provide any information, but only taunts as if not knowing the answer to something justifies your view (whatever that might be).  So what if something isn't completely explainable?  That doesn't mean that there isn't information pointing to an answer.  So what if there are things which may not be understood?  It doesn't mean that your taunts or ridiculing are contributing in any fashion.

It is clear that you aren't particularly interested in the answers, and those that are provided (such as they are) are always considered inadequate.  So I have to wonder at your motivation.  Is it your intent to ever research something, or only to poke a finger at those that have? 

After all, it isn't like you've ever provided an answer to anything, but rather it seems that you take pleasure in what you perceive as the failures of science. 

The process of Evolution is far more complex than most lay persons understand on either side of that question. Evolution is merely an organisms responce mechanism to its changing environments. These adaptations continue in all species over time as they encounter ever new environmental challenges. Evolution actually occurs on many levels. It begins with a series of genetic adaptations at the cell level as implimented through bacterial and virial infections that contaminate their DNA, as allowed as part of that organisms immune responce. Those fragments of information recombine with the existeing DNA and are replicated over the life of that species, and within the subsequent infection of other species suseptible to those infections. At some point, those recombinant and their auxillery genetic mechanisms are triggered by chemical, biological or external physical force such as emotional stressing. This is often brought on by personal and cultural preferences. That natural selection process eventually gave rise to to modern birds and our racial diffenciation.

If proprogation and perpetuation of a species was all that drove evolution, then there is no real need for higher, more complex organisms such as us. Like Albert Einstein,I still believe in a "God" of sorts. As such, the notion of Intelligent Design is not lost on me in the greater scheme of things. I feel we are being driven into ever more complex and intelligent organisms in order that we may exploit whatever resources are evailable to us, now even those in outer space. Contrary to what some may claim, we are just beginning this grand adventure of life, its just that we aren't limited to this Earth.

Well...that is nice and tidy Art, but hardly insightful. Evoutionists have long insisted upon the use of the "word" evolution in lieu of the "word" adaptation mostly because of the implication differences. The "need" for a higher life form coming from a scientific view point is moot, but the fact that there "is" a higher life form is obvious. What gave rise to our modern birds was their parents and grand parents reproducing within their kind...natural selection only purposed the healthiest specimen of an already existing species. As long as there is a basic understanding that there is a significant difference between "micro" and "macro" evolution then there isn't much of a problem...we'll all find out in the end...won't we.

...I don’t subscribe to the Dawkins-style attack on creationists (amply quoted by Egnor, of course), which he calls “ignorant, stupid, insane … or wicked.” Most creationists are none of the last three (though ignorance often does play a role. But then again, I’m just as ignorant of neurosurgery)....huh?! Isn't performing a Dawkins-style attack on Creationists what you just did? Sure you used a little bit softer language and different terminology, but the message you gave, either directly or indirectly, is that we are "ignorant, stupid, insane...or wicked."

...Evolution is a scientific fact as solid as they come, and a scientific theory as well established as any other scientific theory is....So, is it a fact or a theory? There's a big difference between the two and I think the evolutionist camp needs to sort out which one it is because there always seems to be a debate on that amongst them. I'm sure a Webster's Dictionary could help you out with that one.

I have to ask the question as well, since it wasn't really answered properly in the article; Why are you so afraid of your theory being challenged by an alternative explanation? I read this article and I don't hear a scholar or scientist writing it, but rather someone who is immensely afraid that he might actually be proven wrong if he doesn't silence the opposition at the earliest possible chance. It's really quite reminiscent of what most dictators do. Stalin and Hitler come to mind immediately. They were afraid so they just silenced the competition. Are you afraid that young-earth creationism might actually have some merit?

Also, as much as you don't want to admit it, evolution is a religion. I know you'll probably hate me for saying that, but it's true. Anything that forms a persons' life and worldview is essentially a religion. I'm not asking you to take science out of the classroom or anything like that. All I ask is that only fact be taught; and if it's a theory, then present it as such. Any theory should be allowable in the classroom, whether it comes from an evolutionary viewpoint or a creationist viewpoint. I think it would only be fair. By the way, I am a young-earth creationist that you so rudely blasted in your article and yet I am still willing to let evolution be taught in classrooms, provided it be done truthfully and presented as one of several theories on origins and not as the only factual one while all the others are just laughable. Seems fair to me.

Gerhard Adam's picture

You are seriously confused about some basic concepts.  I don't know what your notion about "facts" is, but that is a red herring, since there is very little that can ultimately fall into that category except for the most trivial of assertions.

The vast majority of scientific principles are theories and will always remain so, since there is always the possibility that new information will cause them to be modified or even replaced.  However, to draw the conclusion that that makes them a religion is complete nonsense.  You may argue that they are part of a belief system, but that is NOT synonymous with religion. 

Beliefs or having a worldview is the normal state of affairs when it comes to how humans determine their place in the universe, but as I just stated .... that is a far cry from religion and your point either misunderstands or misrepresents what that means.

Bear in mind that creationism doesn't attempt to provide an alternate explanation, it seeks to overturn centuries of scientific work and successes by simply asserting that they are entitled to an alternate explanation or even mythology.  This is complete nonsense and doesn't deserve any attention nor consideration.  If creationists want to participate in this arena then they need to set about establishing a theory that can be tested and evaluated.  If they choose not to, then why should they be given any consideration. 


As for teaching in the classroom, your perspective is preposterous, since you're presuming that there are only two viewpoints (evolution and creationism).  I doubt you would be nearly as tolerant if the dozen odd creation stories were all presented as equally plausible.



...well it's nice to see that you are finally coming around Gerhard. Indeed much of the Scientific principles and study is formulated on theories and unknown's. But you have got to be kidding by your lame suggestion that there are any "other" viable and well known viewpoints that are being debated these days. Your basic understanding of American History is both selective and preposterous in your own right. Creationism's foundation is the same today as it was in the beginning and by God's hand it all has been made, if you hope to disquality what we believe is true by declaring that it's all mythology just because an ever changing report of origins pathway isn't constantly touted, then you have the wrong approach as your basis from the start. You also have missed the boat on just "who" introduced and founded most of the true Scientific study methods across the board in any of the significant Sciences...Christians or more specifically men who believed in God...end of story. We both know that many of todays Science guru's are pagans but it seems to be most prevalent in the Biology field where their focus is on all things small and have totally miss the big picture that is all around them....typical. Hey...have you lost weight?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Still engaged in the mental gymnastics ... eh?  It's interesting that you claim a religious foundation because the men that developed scientists happened to be "believers".  However, that isn't how science progressed, nor was it their intent advance the cause of Christianity, but rather it was to come to understanding of how the world worked.  In their minds, it may well have been a means by which they felt they were understanding god's work, but it most certainly was not to claim it as such.

Creationism is simply a silly affectation that serves no purpose except to advance an agenda that is anti-science.  I certainly don't have a problem with anyone that wants to do serious science and holds a religious belief.  However, I will never accept or acknowledge any "theory" that is simply made up out of whole cloth and advanced as an alternate explanation for anything except a self-serving agenda.

My mental gymnastics is the only exercise I get lately so I am not against it's benefit. Now the "religious foundation" is not a "claim"...it is a fact that can be revealed or discovered with only a cursory bit of investigation, but in the doing will come the denial or rejection of the notion. Thus, God "must" be denied/ignored/pushed away as being the legitimate originator to our existance at all cost. Acknowledging a "Creator" brings consequence to other things and complicates individual lives and how their lived so I fully understand why it is imperative that everything be an accident and without purpose. Dang Gerhard...are you telling me (and Art) that only a "Creationist" has a self serving agenda??? I know you are a lot smarter than that!...but you have revealed your heart of hearts true stance which involves this issue..."I will NEVER accept or acknowledge"...it's what we Christians call a "heart of stone".

Gerhard Adam's picture
You already know what I mean, in that I will never give credence to something that is simply made up.  Your example of previous scientists begs the question, because creationism doesn't seek to answer any questions nor provide any alternatives.  It has simply given up.

All the scientists that you mention felt that they were exploring the world that God created and were looking for the means by which it was achieved.  They viewed their explorations as gaining insights into the workings and nature of the entire universe.  Creationists want to stifle that innovation by avoiding the hard work of science and making arbitrary declarations.  In truth, it is the creationist that has the biggest problem with god, because while the scientist is still asking questions and exploring answers, the creationist presumes to know the mind of god. 


...which part is simply made up dear Gerhard?? If we believe that God made it all why would we feel the need to consider an alturnitive explanation? Research can continue, experimentation can continue, study can still be done, discoveries are just as important...no one has given up. None of the beauty of Science is deminished...be honest Gerhard and admit that it's all about "ORIGINS" nothing more. If Michael discovers a gene that can give you one blue eye and one brown what has that to do with origins??? Nothing so the discovery is just a discovery, it's neutral. It is only when someone desires to ascribe a decending origin to your great uncle ape that portends to answer a question that wasn't asked! Thanks, by the way for saying that "God created the World", that was nice of you...

Gerhard Adam's picture

... I had no idea I was that important to your well-being.



Hank's picture
 It's interesting that you claim a religious foundation because the men that developed scientists happened to be "believers".

That would mean math is Muslim, since Al-Khwarizmi is responsible for both algorithm and algebra.

...who came up with 2+2 Hank?...

Gerhard Adam's picture
Well it certainly wasn't Europeans.  That's the Hindu-Arabic numerals which didn't find their way to Europe until the Middle Ages.

What are you suggesting anyway? 

Hank's picture
Maybe he's introducing a trivia contest.  The Egyptians or the Babylonians, as far as we know.  Math happened before writing.  It wasn't a Christian, that's for certain.

...no contest at all boys, just a question. You guys "love" questions and alternative possibilities. Are you huddled in your back room with Gerhard today or what?

Hank's picture
Perry, have you noticed you make a lot of gay innuendo when you write here?   Not that there's anything wrong with that (I guess you're Episcopalian) but since it isn't either witty or insightful, it's just creepy.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Unfortunately that's a trait I've noticed in a lot of the more militant Christians.  Since it appears they need the "authority" of the belief system to keep themselves in line, they presume that those that don't share such a view must be as out of control as they are.

I've never taken you as a "sensitive guy" Gerhard but your post appears to display some dejected feelings. Sorry if I have threatened the authority of "your" belief system. I simply have to ask though...what am "I" doing that is out of control??? I have to know. Also...you believe that being gay is a "trait" and it's part of a belief system as well according to you?? I've never looked at it that way but it does coincide with (sorta) that it is a choice one makes rather than being born with the affliction. By the way...could you give me an example of a "militant Christian"?? Anyone I might recognize, someone famous? Just so I can understand what it is exactly you are talking about...

Gerhard Adam's picture
What made you think I was talking about you?  Guilty conscience?

...on the contrary, it was your close proximity to your partner in crime Hank "gay innuendo" Campbell and the fact that you posted so quickly after him, besides...your picture "was" looking at me when I read it. ;-)

Hank...I am no more gay than that hair style you are sporting in your picture, I guess that "todays" more modern man is a lot more keen on "gay innuendo" in light of our much more permissive society, although I'm glad you feel that gay behavior is "creepy" , I agree by the way. I was raised Dutch Reformed back in the day, these days I favor Calvary Chapel. I know that is an enormous leap from my "Reformed" days but I like the much more casual structure. My comment was never meant to be "witty" or insightful??...it was just a jest for you two jokers, nothing more so relax. Dang Hank...do gays make you nervous??

We are all ignorant of a great deal, especially of that elusive 'all inclusive absolute truth'. Each of us may honestly profess our his particular interpretation of whatever facts are available to us but dispite our faith, will they hold up under later evidence and reason? Science differs from our typical understandings in that its insights must include all physical possibilities as well as what is accepted on faith as probable. Science must not be allowed to become its own religion, as it must deal with all possibilites. It is a God given tool by which we may illuminate the darkness of our ignorance and allow us to overcome our typical prejudice against the truth, or anything, any fact or understanding that goes against conventional thought. I, like Will Rodgers, 'don't have a problem with ignorance so much as I do with so many people believing so many things that just aren't true'. Truth is justified by and thus depends on faith in some high ideal. Unfortunately, we are apparently incapable of agreeing on what that ideal should be, hense truth is unprovable. What difference does it matter if we know what is good and just if we choose to ignore the consequences of our actions, to lie to each other and too often ourselves about what our agendas may really be..

Art you have a gentle spirit which I can abide with and you make your point very well, but in here agreement will not be forthcoming as too much exposure to self examination will solicit a line drawn in the sand so to speak that a pagan simply can't afford to cross. Massimo, the originator of this dreadfully biased article, has many times hurt his own elbow by profusely patting himself on the back with the "Napoleon" belief that he is the arbiter of all things "evolution" and consequently Creation itself. He holds a trophy from his schools "Evolution Dept" as their best "Evolutionist Emeritus", what else could you possibly expect from such a "free thinker"? Your pointing out that there is "significant" fear in their ranks hits to the core of their being, and you also know exactly why this is. It's as old as the question first posed to Eve in the garden.... "did God say"???

A few words on how I figure it. A force I'll call God created the world with the big bang. Was it the first big bang? Then things began to evolve and this evolution has taken billions of years to finally produce the amazing beauty of this planet we occupy. I find evil in the Book of Genesis to suggest and old man with a white beard named God created the place in 6 days! This produces the attitude of "easy come, easy go, easy come back again!" Whee! Let us just wantonly destroy this world and God will bring it back in a few days. It's the saddest thing to see folks embrace the idea of armageddon. Yes, the force will bring it back someday, millions of years from now. We shall all sleep for millions of years while God repairs it. May you all have good dreams and not nightmares. Remember that ancient scripture comes from superstitious cavemen just trying to make sense of their world. I see ancients of long ago looking at us and saying to one another, "Good grief, they now have scientific knowledge and continue to teach our metaphors? What's the matter with them?"

I'm not certain who God is, but I know there is something out there that responds to prayer. Try it sometime. The first time I prayed aloud and alone, the hair stood up on the back of my neck. Oooo, freaky! This force likes private prayer and will sometimes reward one with some kind of phenom in the room.

Jackie...your post is a wild piece of fantasy and it made me smile a bit as I read it. You are a free spirit that is for sure. Not that it makes any sense to me for sure but that's ok. Your description of "God, the old man" is more a description of Santa Clause in my mind, but to those of us who believe that there is a "Force" that I call God it is His characteristics that are more important than how He might appear...agreed?? You and I can also agree on another thing and that is the power of prayer. While many in this forum ascribe to Pagan ideals they can observe the "Heavens" and the life on the planet and not even have a clue that there "is" a force that is responsible. They can deny "ALL" of creation with the wave of the hand, but what really "proves" that there is a God is answered prayer, regular, specific, and personally prescribed for the petitioner...that is "freaky"... ;-)

Thank you for your reply. I used to be an atheist and was having a lot of problems in my life, turned to God out of sheer frustration, and my pleas got results. So I dashed off to embrace religion and nearly lost my new faith all over again. Some of those religious are MEAN. I guess I did turn out to be a free spirit. I have no religion I have to obey to the letter. I guess this allows me to see creationism and evolution working together.

You just keep on walking and seeking God's face and I assure you that when you least expect it He will comfirm His intentions in a special way purposed specifically for you. Creationism and Evolution though simply can not work together Jackie...one has purpose and intention, special and specific, the other is accidental and without purpose with no thought to the individual only the survival of the fittest...look again more closely Jackie.

Gerhard Adam's picture
..... so much for your respect and love of science.

...your a trip Gerhard...are you suggesting that a comment intended for anothers encouragement can be so clearly panned by a person who believes in accidents and no purpose? Ain't you working today??

Gerhard Adam's picture
I got the encouragement part ... but the representation that creationism and evolution are diametrically opposed clearly establishes the religious agenda and nothing more.  I guess it's pretty clear that there is no "creation science" eh?

Who says?

Fred Pauser's picture
Massimo,

Excellent post!

---Why do Darwinists claim that intelligent design theory isn't scientific, when both intelligent design and Darwinism are merely the affirmative and negative answers to the same scientific question: Is there evidence for teleology in biology?---

This betrays Egnor’s ignorance of the nature of science. The question of teleology in biology is most certainly not a scientific question, it is a philosophical one. And “Darwinism” is not a negative answer to that question, it is a positive answer to the question of how adaptive complexity originated during the history of life on earth.

Agreed, however, the fact that the evolution of life certainly shows progressive increases in complexity and diversity over billions of years, accompanied by increased in capabilities, is actually scientific evidence that may be applied toward the issue of teleology. (See Nonzero by Robert Wright)

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