Curtis E. Hinkle's denial of the existence of transgender children. My rebuttal.

About Hontas Farmer

I have written my bio extensively on my student webpage

I am currently a graduate student of physics at Depaul University working on a

... Full Bio

Hontas
Farmer

Curtis E. Hinkle of Organisation Internationale des Intersexués (Oii) has written “Zucker: Manipulation of Young Feminine Boys ” . To me this reads like just another attack on the very concept of the feminine young transsexual. Basically he reviews the papers that have been published on childhood gender variance in relation to adult transsexuality and homosexuality. In these papers it is found that the majority of boys brought in for gender variance in childhood turn out to be homosexual few become transsexual. That is not in dispute here.

To keep things short the major conclusion Mr. Hinkle draws and I think is clearly rubbish is.

Since as we have discussed, transsexualism cannot be identified in childhood, it’s abusive that this change of transsexualism in adulthood to GID of adulthood uses homosexual boys to pathologize adult transsexuals.

To that I present the following rebuttal.

The way he defines being a transsexual is by seeking out and obtaining SRS. Well that is far from a universal description. It leaves out non-op transsexuals. Women who ID as women but just don't feel that genitals define them. (There exist a whole subculture with it's own parlance of which such women are an integral part. Look at these video's , and any of these, tell me that many femme queens don't have a feminine identity. )
Myself (A picture of me where I seem to clearly know I want to be a female scientist when I grow up.)
Jazz ( 20/20 “My Secret self” ) . A transsexual child being allowed to live as a female by her parents and school.
I can think of dozens of people I know personally who now live as women some of whom went through a period where they tried living as gay males (both openly and as closeted as such a feminine male can be).

All I can do at this point is ask why? Why call people like me liars when clearly and provably we are not? What thinly veiled hatred, misogynistic, femiphobia can motivate such people? It is to people like this the transsexual community should trust it's future? God have mercy on us all if they have their way.

Consider this by Sharon Gaughan " What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op Notion":

Changing your hair style, installing silicon breast implants, altering mode of dress, and so forth, are surface flash. This has nothing to do with whether you are transsexual. Even taking hormones may not be an indicator of transsexuality if the other steps remain unplanned.

She goes on to imply...

For if they have their way the only way to get hormones or SRS legally would end up by denying any sexuality at all and paying lip service to a concept innate feminine gender identity (Which can be hidden inside without raising even a little suspicion over the persons sexual and gender identity). People who do not pay lip service to this could end up with lesser legal protection than those who do. After all most people I know who define being transsexual by op status alone seem to think that a non-op lives part time as a man or something. So they would not need the same non-discrimination protection or so it has been reasoned. Thus perpetuating the very class/race/cultural division I wrote on earlier and making it a matter of law. Where people like Ms. Gaughan is legally defined as being the true woman and I am just a gay boy in a dress (Take a long look at my picture and at her's and think about that for a minute.)

That's it for this for a while. I promise my readers my next blog will be on physics and another video is comming soon.

Comments

The link to your picture is broken, it says it has either been moved or deleted.

Anonymous (not verified) | 06/10/08 | 05:39 AM

H Farmer's DENIAL of reality. That's what Hontas Farmer's article slamming Mr. Hinkle's brilliant essay should be re-named. H Farmer admits not debating that most feminine boys grow up to be gay (fact) but then clearly goes to Kaplutis when H Farmer relies on anecdotal "evidence" to try to malign Mr. Hinkle...and attempt, which is way "out there" at best....oh, Kaplutis was on the Brady Bunch....wrong
tv show arggghhhhhhh

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 18:11 PM

Mr. Hinkle made a claim. That transsexuality cannot be identified in children. All I have to do is present examples of children who are living cross gender and compare them to people who are transsexual adults to show that this is not the case. I have. "Jazz" is not an anecdote she was on 20/20. If she isn't a transsexual then I don't know who is. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/12/08 | 09:36 AM

Hontas, you are misrepresenting Curtis to advance your agenda. Shame on you. Don't tase Curtis, "bro".

Anonymous (not verified) | 07/04/08 | 10:36 AM

Thank you, Farmer, for the insightful personal attack on my wife and girlfriend Sharon Gaughan. When you cannot argue with the science, you might as well attack the person, I guess.

Why does the discussion always seem to flow to the level of the lowest intellect posting?

It would be like me asking whether you masturbate in front of the screen or in the bathroom still. What's the point?

Lisa Jain
email lisa.jain@ts-si.org

Lisa Jain Thompson (not verified) | 06/28/08 | 12:46 PM

Hontas, you are clearly attempting to mislead people. Curtis exposed a small part of Ken Zucker's many methodological flaws. It is Ken Zucker who actually denies trans children and youth the right to express their affirmed genders, as demonstrated in the following NPR interview in Zucker's own words, where Zucker admits to forcibly taking away children's toys and forcing them to wear clothing inconsistent with their gender identity. If this does not constitute "denial of their existence", you would be hard pressed to find something that would.

See for yourself:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90247842

Your words are nothing more than a smear campaign to redirect attention from Zucker, who is coming under increasing scrutiny from hate-watch groups and human rights activists worldwide.

Au Contraire (not verified) | 07/03/08 | 07:38 AM

Hontas, did Ken Zucker pay you to launch this smear campaign against Curtis? Since you have a criminal record, are you interested in being charged with libel, too? You have made blatantly false comments to cause false enmity between trans and intersex people. Also, Zucker advocates reparative therapy to change trans children's gender identities- he is the one who should be challenged for denying trans children.
Nothing you say will change that reality. We are lucky to have an ally like Curtis speaking out against abuses of trans and intersex children.

Not A Sellout (not verified) | 07/04/08 | 10:40 AM

Hello Hontas

In all fairness I seem to remember that the school of thought, which you have often ascribed to, that of Dr. Kenneth Zucker Ray Blanchard and J Michael Bailey. I believe states that the "Feminine essence narrative" is incorrect. And I see you are agreeing with the feminine essence narrative. In fact providing some examples.

My understanding of Kenneth Zucker's approach to this is that "It is better for a child to grow up as a gay man than as a transsexual". I am led to believe that Kenneth Zucker does ascribe to the model as presented by Ray Blanchard which describes a male to female transsexual individual as a "Homosexual transsexual" (A feminine gay male) or "Autogynephilic" (A heterosexual man who fancies himself when dressed as a woman).

As I am sure you can see, there is no mention of anything but "Male" in one guise or another. I would suggest that it would be Kenneth Zucker who could be seen as someone who ascribes to "thinly veiled hatred, misogynistic, femiphobia".

All the best

Sophie

Sophia Siedlberg | 06/10/08 | 08:21 AM

Sophia S Siedlberg has written:

I see you are agreeing with the feminine essence narrative. In fact providing some examples.

and

As I am sure you can see, there is no mention of anything but "Male" in one guise or another. I would suggest that it would be Kenneth Zucker who could be seen as someone who ascribes to "thinly veiled hatred, misogynistic, femiphobia".

To your first point I say that is perhaps a matter of perspective. All three examples could be looked at as examples of homosexual transsexuals The ladies walking categories like face, realness, sex siren, and such all live that way 24x7 365. The way they look they could not live a double life. Any who I have gotten to know, or just know about from sources were remarkably feminine boys. Went through a period of thinking that they were just gay of varying length's. Then became femm queens, as they call themselves. (In academic terms a fem queen would be equivalent to a non-op, pre-op, or even post-op transsexual. What straight society calls a queen would be to them more of a butch queen who occasionally dresses up or vogues femm for fun or show but lives as a man otherwise.) As for me myself I was also a remarkably feminine boy who so happed was interested in and had aptitude for science. I would have my investigations into computers, chemistry, hydrology, and model rocketry. All the while for pure play I would dress up in my mothers wigs and do my nails with her. Or pretend I was Madonna and sing Like a virgin for whomever would listen. For pure entertainment my favorite TV shows were "Jem", "He-Man", "Gummy Bears", "Duck Tales", and "David the Gnome" on Nickelodeon. Then being the Malcolm in the middle smart kid I was I would watch the "McLaughlin Group", and "This Week With David Brinkley." (back in the 80's so they scared the hell out of me with talk of MX missiles and our nations second possibly third strike capability against the Soviet Union.) Then I would go out wearing basically everything but the wig with my mother and be taken at times for a very intelligent little girl. Last but not least Jazz. One could read the part in TMWWBQ about "Princess Danny" and that would describe Jazz in many ways. But for the reaction of the adults around either of them. I would caution against any pressure on Jazz to follow through and have SRS. A person should experience sex with what they have first before deciding they would never ever miss it. In an NPR documentary of which I am sure you are aware the psychologist who treats Jazz said that transsexuality is akin to homosexuality. That in a nutshell is the Blanchardian concept of the "homosexual transsexual". Note the things that people like the above never say... They never hid it. They never say "I became attracted to men only after SRS and due to my feminine gender identity". (I have to wonder what people like that must think of run of the mill homosexual males. I will aslo admit to having met non-homosexual transsexuals who talk about their sexuality and gender in a distinctly different way than this. They are however a tiny minority.) Even in cases, not seen so often these days, of homosexual transsexuals who have been briefly married to women and were closeted gay males... one does not hear that kind of statement ever. They were just simply always attracted to men regardless of their own gender presentation. Thus it becomes plain why the likes of Hinkle would like to erase such people from the category of transsexual. The children who would be diagnosed as having GID of childhood would if transsexual and Blanchard's theories applies would be diagnosed as "homosexual transsexuals". Attempting to define such people as non-transsexual is one way of attacking Blanchard's theory. A rhetorical technique which shows complete disregard for a large segment of the T community. Disregard that labels such people as mere part time "transgdengers" undeserving of legal protections. (Even though they live as female all the time and in some instances have lived as such longer than many of the people who criticize them.) To your second point. I agree Dr. Zuckers reparative therapy idea is barbaric at it's root. Children of all kinds should have childhood as a time to explore themselves in all aspects free of adult judgment and adult pressure to conform. In such an environment geniuses thrive and kids with GID grow up to be whatever they want as happy well adjusted adults. It is wrong to think that Zucker and Blanchard's ideas are joined at the hip. As I noted the psychologist who faced him in that program on NPR seems to think in Blanchardian terms as well. @ Anonymous I have fixed the link to my picture. I have others and video as well. Due to being a scientist some wish to doubt how sissified I really was. Why post such pictures one may wonder. Well, people like me are exceedingly rare. Not meaning to brag my intellectual abilities are far far above normal AND I'm a transsexual AND I did not wait until I was much older. I know of only one person who's story is even close to mine. My claims are extraordinary so the same must be said of my proof.

Hontas Farmer | 06/10/08 | 13:39 PM

Hey Farmer, I looked at my tape of the 20/20 interview by Barbara Walters with 6 year old Jazz. Just because Marilyn Volker siad the child is transgender (basically by the child telling her what pronoun the child thinks fits as well as a description of anatomically correct dolls) doesn't support the use of this as an example of childhood transsexuals. Mr. Hinkle's brilliant discourse shows that
most extremely feminine boys grow up to be gay, and some even grow up to be heterosexual (actually more than those who become trans)....and Volker used the DSM IV to diagnose Jazz also.....big wowee....the DSM IV childhood GID diagnosis was exposed as incorrect in that it doesn't measure identity at all....

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/10/08 | 23:34 PM

God I hope Your joking.

Just because Marilyn Volker siad the child is transgender (basically by the child telling her what pronoun the child thinks fits as well as a description of anatomically correct dolls) doesn't support the use of this as an example of childhood transsexuals.

LOL ROTFLMFAO Foolery! Jazz is anatomically and probably chromosomally male and living as a female. If that's not transsexual then nothing is. I mean heck what do you need to have Jazz do? Try to cut it off himself? Request childhood SRS? :-/ Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 03:37 AM

Hontas Farmer is CLUELESS. I don't think you read Mr. Hinkles article carefully. There are boys who are so extreme in their so-called femininity since 1 or 2 years of age, and are having trouble as even believing they are boys. Check the references.Have you read about Zuger's boys (NOT Zucker, but Bernard Zuger)? MOST, the great majority of boys like Jazz do NOT grow up trans, they grow up gay...and more grow up hetero. You or Volker can NOT predict how they will turn out. Volker, and Spack have bought in to the DSM IV junk. They think these kids need blockers. Zucker thinks they need therapy. Cohen-Kettenis I think is changing her mind some on the treatment. Her writing seems to be more like Zucker's now. But, we can only likely predict that they will turn out to be gay, not trans. Oh, and yes, some of the boys have tried to cut their ...off...the other kid interviewed by Walters did.
Again, the lit. is packed with many examples of boys who do this...and most turn out to be gay not trans, got it?

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 12:08 PM

Hello Hontas.

On the first point, my simplest answer would be, "Hontas Farmer, a female scientist, and she has a lot of interesting things to say". (Which you do actually). As a matter of perspective, if you read any textbook and the section on 5 alpha, you may find the very things you find upsetting being applied, almost universally to someone in my situation. You are not the only one who may feel erased by such generalizations. I would never seek to erase your own experiences because I do know what it feels like. Albeit from very different circumstances.

You say:

To your second point. I agree Dr. Zuckers reparative therapy idea is barbaric at it's root. Children of all kinds should have childhood as a time to explore themselves in all aspects free of adult judgment and adult pressure to conform. In such an environment geniuses thrive and kids with GID grow up to be whatever they want as happy well adjusted adults.

I fully agree with you on that, in fact one of my aims in life is to brig things about that would enable real child geniuses to thrive without the unreasonable pressures of adult judgment.

The problem with Zucker and Blanchard is not that they are joined at the hip, but belong to the same school of thought,
it has the "Nickname" of "The Clarke Northwestern" and they seem to place conformity above the individual, It bothers me deeply that someone with your intellect had to contend with the conformist stupidity that the Clarke Northwestern has come to represent.

You are clearly formidable intellect and a woman who is above all this.

All the best

Sophie

Sophia Siedlberg | 06/10/08 | 15:57 PM

Hontas,

Obviously, you don't understand the science and the evidence presented in the article.

I certainly do believe and know there are many transgender children. However, the point of the article was about the way Zucker misinterpreted the statistics and control groups. It is Zucker who is in fact the one who is taking the position that you ascribe to me. Very odd. Did you read the article?

I am stating that Zucker is NOT curing these boys. I can so no evidence that the boys that Zucker is treating are being cured of anything. Are you saying that Zucker is actually preventing transgender children from becoming trans? Very odd to me if you think that.

OII has the opposite view of Zucker and it has been on our website since OII incorporated. The official position on health care states:

"We campaign against all non-consensual normalisation treatments of infants that are not medically necessary and favour the right of all intersexed children to determine their own sex identity once they are capable of communicating it to us. Furthermore we advise parents to respect the sex identity of their children and to do all that is necessary so that their children can live according to their choice."

And we take the same position for ALL children.

Maybe you should voice your complaints to Zucker and reread the article.

Curtis

Curtis (not verified) | 06/10/08 | 17:11 PM

Really Curtis. Well I am sure I understand the English language. Did you not write...

Since as we have discussed, transsexualism cannot be identified in childhood, it’s abusive that this change of transsexualism in adulthood to GID of adulthood uses homosexual boys to pathologize adult transsexuals.

? You did write that. Saying that "transsexualism cannot be identified" is equivalent to saying it does not exist. (i.e. right now in physics dark matter and the Higgs particle cannot be identified so, formally at least, even their believers, have to, as scientist, say they do not exist... Until they have observed them directly in the lab.) So Sir it seems that I understand what you meant quite well. Let me further dissect your statement sir.. you mention "homosexual boys" are being used to pathologize transsexual or as you say intersexed adults. Ok. So let me ask you is the person who wrote this about them self being used to pathologise transsexual adults? Don't try to figure out where I found it on the net, that would color your perception of it for sure, just answer my question. Is this persons story being used to pathologize transsexual adults and explain to me just how so?*

I can remember in kindergarten, I was immediately drawn to the playhouse with pots and pans, dolls and pretty colors. I also had my first crush, his name was and we were in the same class until the sixth grade. I did well in school until I entered high school. I didn't have many friends. I was quiet and kept to myself for fear of being discovered as liking boys. My actions were always feminine, however I didn't know it or I was in denial. It was at a family function where my brother-in-law was filming using a camcorder that I saw how feminine I spoke and acted. Scary, I wanted to hide in the closet forever.*

Also your mission statement seems to define gender variance as a form of "intersex condition". I have to ask you this given recent research on the various biological bases of homosexuality does your organization consider gay and lesbian persons to be intersexed? Their are studies too numerous cite them all which point to a sort of incomplette mind body inversion in them. Consider This Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men Ivanka Savic *, {dagger}, {ddagger}, Hans Berglund §, and Per Lindström They found...

...In the present study, the pattern of activation induced by AND and EST was compared among homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. In contrast to heterosexual men, and in congruence with heterosexual women, homosexual men displayed hypothalamic activation in response to AND. Maximal activation was observed in the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus, which, according to animal studies, is highly involved in sexual behavior....

In short they found that homosexual males have partially feminzed brains. (Notably in the hypothalamus the same general region as the BNSTc which Zhou found was different in transsexual women hmmm.) Face it Mr. Hinkle. Oii does NOT really have the best interest and well being of the whole transsexual community at it's heart. Only that of a privileged few who wish to retain their privilege. * This quote is actually from a "transsexual womans success story" . Surely you would not accuse Maria (a.k.a. Junita), and Lynn Conway of pathologizeing transsexual adults by telling their true life stories. I mean heck it seems clear that Maria was quite gender variant from a young age... For that matter so was Dr. Conway (She like myself has some pictures to that effect). Let me make this clear right here right now we are not really talking about Dr. Bailey. His crime was to betray people who confided in him, and nothing more. Leave him and Blanchard out of this. At least Bailey did not represent himself as being activist working on their behalf. You are guilty of something far more foul. You are like the cop that works with a gang, or the judge who is on the maffia payroll, or the HRC just being the HRC. As an activist you have to look out for everyone in the group you are acting on behalf of. You are guilty of abusing the trust of this community. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/10/08 | 21:54 PM

hey farmer, Q if a tree falls in the woods and YOU are not there to hear it, does it make a sound? It depends on if you believe in the power of trolldom....LOL...anyways, just not being able to identify transsexualism in childhood does NOT mean that it doesn't exist...oh, by the way, people identify UFO's all the time....do they exist? are they objects, and do they fly?

Anonymous (not verified) | 06/10/08 | 23:18 PM

LOL The answer is yes to everything you said except for one thing. If someone writes that something cannot be identified scientifically (not in terms of every day people speech) that is the same as saying it does not exist or we don't know what it is. Take your example of the UFO's. That the Flying Objects are unidentified allows skeptics to say that they do not really exist and use other explanations. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 02:49 AM

Hey H Farmer, just because we cannot diagnose childhood transsexualism, does not mean it does not exist. But, heck, we can know that extreme femininity in boys, is MOSTLY indicative of adult male homosexuality. Did you even read Mr. Hinkle's article?

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 12:17 PM

hey farmer, where does mr. hinkle define being transsexual as "...by obtaining SRS"?

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/10/08 | 23:08 PM

Hey farmer, you forgot to tell Mr. Hinkle that the same group which found the female hypothalamic response in gay men, also found the same female response in transsexuals who are all gynephillic...and GEEZ Farmer, I thought you also said that this area is near the BSTc...guess physics doesn't equal logic now does it Farmer....

See Berglund H et al Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids Cerebral Cortex Dec 3, 2007 online

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/10/08 | 23:26 PM

Interesting I had not heard of that one. All I can find on the paper is the abstract. It would be nice to have the full text to look at. The interesting thing is that in a mathematical model attached to a blog posting I put here this very result was predicted by me. (I attempted to publish it in a journal of mathematical psychology but explaining the quantum mechanics, convex analysis proved difficult. Thoughtless people don't listen until you have a PhD.) The attachment should still be there. Science Through Rose Colored Glasses: Agendas in Sexology and How Math Can Shed New Light In which I level criticism at both the Bailey and Conway. Then advance my own mathematical model, my own theory of transsexualism. Then lo and behold these people release findings that confirm my model's predictions. My model is distinct from Dr. Blanchards, though it contains the types of people he saw it predicts others. Taking a look at this from a Blanchardian perspective the next challenge would be for them to do a study in which Blanchardian homosexual transsexuals are compared to non homosexual transsexuals, homosexual males, straight males, Lesbian and straight women. That would be the killer result. Such a result would either show in a real physical way that their are at least two types of transsexuals or that their are not. The debate would be settled once and for all. I hope they do that. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 03:16 AM

Dear H Farmer, Actually, Gizewski has studied transsexuals, and an abstract is found in ArzteZeitung.
But, there will be an article out in a peer reviewed journal by Gizewski based upon the same research as was reported in this German publication. Transsexuals type as heterosexual females do to visual sexual stimuli using fMRT
REGARDLESS of whether they are attracted to men and only to men and nothing but men, as partners, or whether they are oriented towards other groups. In fact, the amygdala and insular cortex responds as it does in women in these m to f transsexuals. (The amygdala finding actually contradicts a study by bailey using fMRI and studying the amygdasla in homosexual men). Gizewski's group also has
other studies of persons with other sexual orientations, such as gay men and hetero women. Whereas the hypothalamus
is the same in response in gay men, hetero women, and trans of any orientation, the amygdala and the insular cortex responds in transsexuals as it does in women, again regardless of the orientation of the transsexual. This will be out soon. P.S.-I don't understand your critique of Hinkle. he mentions that it is rare that very feminine boys become adult transsexuals. It seems to me, that it may occur rarely, so to try to make this exception the rule, is a [prblem which you are doing. I think GID of childhood does make adult transsexuality seem abnormal in label, because USUALLY this is not the result of clinical course in transsexualism

Prof. Italiano (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 19:36 PM

Where he says SRS is needed to be considered transsexual. He does so at the top of the fourth paragraph and repeatedly throughout his thesis.

However, others (5) rarely ever saw these same boys later as adult men presenting at sex change clinics as transsexuals and desiring sex reassignment surgery. Reports of this extreme “feminine” behavior were conspicuously lacking in those presenting for SRS.

Furthermore, these adult SRS candidates in adulthood, usually did not show “signs of trouble with their gender identity in childhood that might have attracted attention...very few were taken to clinics” and “still fewer were treated”.

Those two make it clear that to him Transsexual <==> desiring SRS. Any other body modifications, lifestyle, behavior, or desire matters in his conception. Furthermore it seems that Oii as represented by him buys into the whole GID as what's called "Harry Benjamin Syndrome (an intersexed condition that presents no symptom other than wanting SRS. Or something along those lines. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 03:40 AM

hey Farmer, Curtis is not saying these things. Look at the references which you cite Curtis as citing. Curtis is simply just demonstrating that reports show that the MAJORITY of those requesting SRS do not display what is termed as extreme boyhood feminnity. Instead of anecdotal reports, try putting some conflicting data from peer reviewed journals. But again, although you will find reports that many types of people (including non-transsexuals) obtain SRS, I want to see reports where
these predominate and where the primary (asexual) do not.
Can we keep it to recent reports? 'K?

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 11:57 AM

I Don't Censor People. Unless they are just acting a fool and being disruptive then I will delete them. However I request that you would all put your comments into one long post. Take your time, this blogs platform allows one to write comments that are as long as you want. Thigs stay neater that way. So I have edited tumbleena's remarks into one posting and I present them here in their entirety. -------------------------------------------------- Hey Farmer, Maybe Mr. Hinkle wouldn't say that these femm queens don't have a female gender identity, but I sure say they don't have a femm gender identity...the best that someone who is a fem queen, drag queen, Springer type can hope for is to be categorized as secondary transsexual-homosexual subtype....I know some who have gotten SRS because they have convinced the clinicans that they are more genuine because of their childhood behavior reports... just because they adjust to SRS doesn't make them primary transsexuals...on OII I read that primary transsexuals are neither homosexual transsexuals or autogynos. AND there is plenty of stuff to back that up (something which you nor the others BBL) have adequately addressed...Actually I think Tumbleena has found that what Mr. Hinkle calls the Clarke-Northwestern clique is not near the BSTc, but rather is near your need to somehow believe that you uniquely posess some novel way of determining who is a childhood transgender I like to refer to transgender as a Virginia Prince category, which is not transsexual....didn't Prince state that so-called homosexual transsexuals are not women in men's bodies, but because of their mannerisms, do better living as women and try to escape from their homosexuality in this way? See prince's Transsexuals and Pseudotranssexuals Hey Farmer, Just because Ms. Conway has some people who give reports of feminine behavior in childhood, and are successful after SRS doesn't mean a thing. There are examples of successful trans people who some would say are very masculine. Heck I can find examples of people who were mre feminine behaving in childhood than all the examples you have provided and are straight. If a category which you cannot dispute-the nost extreme feminine of boys (childhood GID) in the great majority of cases turns out to be homosexual men, then these largely pre-homosexuals do pathologize adult transsexuals-if not for that one would expect adult transsexuals to largely have this extreme feminine behavior....and I do know of what you would call HTS who have gotten married hoping to cure them, then transitioned, and even some who have regretted it, wishing they could have adjusted to being a gay man. Hey Farmer, Have you actually read stuff on OII? I think you'd find out it is not all Mr. Hinkle. If the majority of feminine boys turn out to be gay, it then gives that label to intersex kids who reject their assignment (from m to f) and find out they are intersexed....Is that what you want? some grand underestimation of the pathologizing of intersexed kids?.......you know and I know, that because most of these feminine acting boys turn out to be gay, that those who are intersexed will get labelled as having a GID of childhood until it is found out that they have a so-called DSD. Mr. Hinkle obviously sees this, and if you read the OII site, you'll find examples of persons who could very easily be pathologized due to this GID smokescreen....criticize OII and Mr. Hinkle all you want, but I don't see you doing anything for intersexed adults who will be labelled as gay or trans for acting feminine as boys and being labelled with a mental disorder-GID of childhood, because thanks to misinformed ideas such as yours, noone saw to karyotype them and find out they may be Klinefeleter's,....after all, you don't care about intersex health issues do you? I see the hand you are playing with Farmer, and If I was a poker player, I'd say I don't believe in Queens....I believe in jokers ...as in jokers WILD ....lol

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 03:30 AM

1.) What you read on Oii is basically the position taken by transsexuals who subscribe to the HBS notion of transsexualism. A idea that has not one peer reviewed published article or any published article by any scientist standing behind it. It simply allows people who were brought up and who bought into the sex negative society of the USA to talk about and think of their transsexuality in ways that are A.)Non sexual B.)Differentiates themselves from those "wierdo's and dragqueens" even if those people get SRS. c.)Allows the HBS person to retain white male privillage (The people I have seen really embrace HBS have almost always been white and quite manly). 2.)So let me get this straight. Basically you say that transsexuals who were feminine boys, have SRS, and adjust to life as a female very well does not prove my point. That it is wrong to say that childhood transsexualism cannot be identified and imply that it does not exist in feminine boys. A.)To believe what you are saying one has to think that their is no connection at all between at least, homosexual transsexuality an feminine boyhood. Their has been enough study done to prove that false. The fact that we have seen feminine boys become transsexual teenage girls proves it. They were not hiding, shy, unassertive wimps. They were quite frankly feminie. B.)You seem to have a great contempt for transsexuals who do not act the way you want them to. Never in my life have I regarded a transexual with such seething just for being who they were. Be they attracted to men women or horses. Judgement is left unto god, not to thumbellena's of the world. 3.) I read all kinds of things that are related to transsexuality. Your point about Klienfelters is interesting and it brings up a good point. A.)First these are the symptoms of KS as found List of symptoms of Klinefelter syndrome (WrongDiagnosis.com): * No symptoms - some men are unaware they have an extra chromosome * Enlarged male breasts - only severe in about 10% of cases * Sparse facial hair * Sparse body hair * Small testes * Inability to produce sperm * Male infertility * Rounded body type * Overweight - somewhat more likely than in non-XXY males. * Tallness - more likely to be taller than non-XXY males. * Thinness * Normal intelligence * Language impairment * Delayed language * Delayed talking * Difficulty reading * Difficulty writing * Normal sexuality - no increase in homosexuality. * Abnormal testicle development * Low testosterone levels * Male breast development * Reduced facial hair * Reduced body hair * Infertility * Learning disabilities * Speech difficulty * Language development problems * Unassertive * Quiet * Sensitive Like many others I have noticed the physical signs and symptoms of KS in many transsexuals say at support groups. Almost never in people who say that they are though. Contrast these with the symptoms and behavior of many transsexuals who try to claim to be intersexed (at least before they went an invented a condition with no physical symptoms and that can only be diagnosed by intropection, HBS.) They mature into grown adult males with all the seoconday sex characteristics, they have children, they are the picture of the manly ideal. Then they claim not KS (at least a little plausible some KS'ers are asymptomatic), they claim that a doctor created a penis out of their vagina when they were a baby. That the doctor created a full functioning penis and testicles with no sturctural, or functional abnormalities. Right. The state of genital surgery decades ago could not achieve that, nor could it achieve that now. These claims cheapen the struggles of actual intersexed people who are left with non functioning genitalia after these normalizing surgeries are done. The idea that an intersexed child would be latter treated for GID for rejecting their sex assigned surgically near birth is a red herring. For that to happen this childs history of being born intersexed would have to be totally forgotten. Which due to the specialized follow up medical care such people get is not likely. As for klienfelters syndrome I find it interesting that basically every transsexual that has confided in me that they have it has also been attracted to men and not women. The real issue we have is that I and many others concieve of transsexuality differently than many of you do. I think that I can say it in on sentence. I am a woman but I am not and never will be female regardless of future SRS or any hidden intersexed conditions. I am not alone at all in thinking this way about it. I know none of this will matter to so many out there. But I feel I must say it. I am so sick and tired of the voice of the so called "trans academics" thundering from on high and en devouring to redefine the terms of this discussion in such a way as to separate them from peasants like me, my friends, acquaintances, and associates. Seeking in impose and if they can have enshrined in law a power relationship in which they retain all the rights and we get nothing. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 04:40 AM

Ah I get it now

A.)First these are the symptoms of KS as found List of symptoms of Klinefelter syndrome (WrongDiagnosis.com): * No symptoms - some men are unaware they have an extra chromosome
* Enlarged male breasts - only severe in about 10% of cases
* Sparse facial hair
* Sparse body hair
* Small testes
* Inability to produce sperm
* Male infertility
* Rounded body type
* Overweight - somewhat more likely than in non-XXY males.
* Tallness - more likely to be taller than non-XXY males.
* Thinness
* Normal intelligence
* Language impairment
* Delayed language
* Delayed talking
* Difficulty reading
* Difficulty writing
* Normal sexuality - no increase in homosexuality.
* Abnormal testicle development
* Low testosterone levels
* Male breast development
* Reduced facial hair
* Reduced body hair
* Infertility
* Learning disabilities
* Speech difficulty
* Language development problems
* Unassertive
* Quiet
* Sensitive

It is that line, A "Deformed male who is stupid" so anyone who is intersexed (With Klinefelters as the standard I assume)and not stupid suddenly ages and becomes a middle aged man in a dress talking about Swaab et al and they get their balls cut off and become "Autogynephiles".

I wonder what a "Genuine DSD" is? let me guess, an XX female who was subjected to female circumcision and grew up a radical feminist. And she answers to names like Bo, Cheryl, Charlie and Brian. And never had "Male privilege" but were just called "Briony", "Charlmagne" and "Bo Peep" (Controlling the silent sheep).

It seems to me that the Clarke Northwestern are about defining everything according to Blanchard's two tier taxonomy, but as you correctly point out this would be nonsensical in the case of someone who was surgically assigned as a child.

I imagine someone like that would feel a bit resentful after the "Thomas Harris" style treatment they get from the likes of the Clarke Northwestern in order to "Conform".

That is the problem Hontas. when some people get erased they do get angry, especially when erasure takes the form of a "Wierdo" and "A man in a dress" and so on. Heaven forbid that they may express the anger one day.

But logically yes, if you were someone in that situation you would see ISNA and DSD as the enemy. and OII as an intersex support group that is not buying into the Clarke Northwestern. Someone in that situation would also be rather cynical and point out that the "Rebranding of OII as an Autogynephile transsexual support group" by the Clarke Northwestern (And their army of well trained elite trolls who were skilled in geurilla stalking tactics)is simply the Clarke Northwestern trashing any dissent.

Given that you clearly do not agree with much of what Zucker does, I am sure that the rebranding of OII is just a genuine criticism on your part and not something you feel obliged to report back to HQ and Zucker. (Stiff upper lip, the sort of thing Anne Lawrence would like to see, what ho)

All the best

Sophie

Sophia Siedlberg | 06/11/08 | 06:44 AM

Homosexual transsexuality is secondary transsexualism at best, and usually homosexuality. Bailey says it himself-a gay man. Blanchard says it a man without a penis. Lots of gay men who are feminine (ESPECIALLY in adolescence)
request SRS. It is only recently (10 years or so) that we find that those who presented at clinics with a so-called history of extreme femininity were not transsexuals. Fact is, they screwed it up for the primary transsexuals. Those who weren't stereotypical were dropped from SRS consideration. it was like this at all the clinics. see Dallas Denny's stuff on this. This is the reason why transsexuals all came in with the same story. Because the non trans who were gay, came in with extreme feminine behavior in childhood and duped the gatekeppers in to thinking that they were actually the true transsexuals. Then EVERONE who had gender complaints came in with the same stories, even though they were making it up, because they knew that was the only way to get SRS. You incorrectly malign Klinefelter's and also true trans folks by using a description of autogynephiles and ask to contrast them with that of Klinefelter's folks. How vicious. Just because some transphobic autogynephiles think they are intersexed means nothing. FYI There are plenty of KS persons who are attracted to women and who would be called trans. I think you need to speak to more people

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 12:45 PM

WTF?!!
My comment here may come a bit late but tumbleena´s remarks just make me feel shocked and laugh out loud at the same time.

First of all, tumbleena, learn a little bit of respect, please.!!!
Homosexual transsexuals screwed up what for whom?! It were the queens (street queens, hormone queens, dairy queens, drag queens, butch queens ... all of them) who were first in western history to fight with their body and soul for the right to live a feminine life despite being born in a male body.
They gave up all possible privileges to live their life that way, they risked their physical safety and much more and they stood in the forefront of all GLBTQ endeavours for more freedom and more happiness.
They were also among the very first to present the condition of feeling like a woman despite having a male body as something natural and not perverted and to bring that presentation to the attention of medical science.
If my sisters hadn´t been back then there would today be no rights for all members of the GLBTQ community and serious and unbiased medical studies would not have begun.
If my sisters hadn´t fought back then there would have been no transsexual women beyond themselves, to begin with, because there would have been no social space for them.
Today no 35 years old family father would be able to come out as a transsexual woman, if they hadn´t been there in the first place and hadn´t made their sacrifices!
Learn a bit of humility in front of those who fought for your rights, tumbleena!!!

"It is only recently (10 years or so) that we find that those who presented at clinics with a so-called history of extreme femininity were not transsexuals."

Second:

Who found out what ??!!

You are obviously confusing a lot of stuff.

First of all, scientific talk about primary and secondary transsexuality never implied any suggestion of "realness" and "truth". That some scientists decided to call homosexual transsexuals "secondary transsexuals" never implied that they meant that they were not true transsexuals.
Even more so, most scientists actually reverse the nomenclature and call homosexual transsexuals "primary transsexuals" and not vice versa.
This nomenclature is neither fixed, nor does it give any insight in who is a true transsexual and who is not, nor does it give you the right to instrumentalize it beyond its proper scientific use.

For a good intro to the scientific use of the "primary" and "secondary" terminology please read Anne Vitale´s article:

http://www.avitale.com/PrimarySecondary.htm

Furthermore, "transsexual" is only an operational term.
It simply signifies a person who desires to live beyond (Latin "trans") his or her biological sex (Latin "sexus").
Any individual who has a true desire and necessity to live in the gender role assigned opposit to his or her biological sex is a true transsexual ! Whether homosexual or autogynephilic or whatever!
There is no other criteria.

I can only quote Anne Vitale to stress this:
"From this we have learned that transsexuals can be widely different from one another, yet show a common need for their condition to be understood and helped. There are no primary transsexuals or secondary transsexuals. There are no true transsexuals or "wannabe" transsexuals. Being gender dysphoric in a society that barely acknowledges the existence of such a condition requires the development of coping mechanisms. Some coping mechanisms are more overt and obvious than others."

Bailey and Blanchard, by the way, have always defended exactly this point and are always very clear about exactly this!

Third:

At no point did Hontas malign people with Klinefelter syndrom. That claim of yours is so ridiculous. She did exactly the opposit. She defended the position of people who really have to deal with Klinefelter against the position of those who wrongly claim Klinefelter but neither had to deal with its social disadvantages nor have any clinically verifiable evidence of their supposed "intersexuality".
She defended the really maligned ones against the fakers who only worsen the situation of real intersexuals!

Leyla Jagiella (not verified) | 02/05/09 | 07:07 AM

The problem with what you are saying Sophia is that people who have KS generally show signs and symptoms. A well known transsexual known to have KS would be Caroline Cossey. This is not unbelieveable just because she is pretty. Caroline has the signs and symptoms of KS (+ usage of early feminizing hormones and a pinch of surgery). I have seen transsexuals who as males looked kind of like the males on the page I reference regarding the Kleinfelters signs and symptoms. One such person post on the intenet as Zoe E. Brain. I can believe it if she says she's intersexed. She was married to a woman and has a child.... by invitro fertilizeation. She also never totally masculinized. Sophia I am not calling you a liar or anything. But do you understand why I have to be skeptical. So many people would claim to be intersexed who are not. They do so on the Basis of saying that they have "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" which is a condition one will not find in any medical reference anywhere ever. If you have a real medically diagnosed intersex condition that's one thing. Then don't care what other internet people think of it. Just live life. Then realize that to the population at large who we need to have recognize our rights does not care how we subdivide ourselves we are all just transsexuals, queers, faggots, faries, pervs to most of them. Being intersexed does not make it simpler for the ignorant masses. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 12:09 PM

H Farmer, MALIGNS Hinkle...yeah neither Tumbleena or You are judge. BUT, it would be better if you don't fabricate your stuff to unrightly slam Mr. Hinkle. If you read carefully stuff on OII, then you will find that Klinefelter's do indeed have a higher rate of transsexualism, (if that's what you call it). But agian, you
are thinking of extreme femininity in boys as a makrer of transsexualism which it clear lt IS NOT. Thus you remain clueless and your critcisms of Mr, Hinkle are baseless.
Didn't you read on OII that 40% of Benjamin's patients were hypogonadal? That another author confirmed this? Benjamin's
patients were all types, just like we have now. Many were asexual-hardly a Blanchard "homosexual transsexual", which is only a secondary transsexual anyways (in some cases) geeeez

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 12:30 PM

I never said that anything either way about weather or not KS people have a higher rate of transsexualism. What I did say is many people claim to have it who could not. Based on biographical facts (Children) and their body's general habitus have the condition. KS males have a certain look to them in general. (Like the people in the pictures here What I MALIGN is that Mr Hinkle and it seems other members of Oii are willing to deny the obvious existence of children who it can be said are already transsexuals. I mean even going as far as to somehow say that Jazz off of 20/20 is not a transsexual. That's just silly. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 15:49 PM

H Farmer, It is not silly and it is not funny. Have you heard of a Stoller baby? Behaving at 1 years of age as if they are transsexuals, those whom Stoller thought were the true transsexuals, primary transsexuals, the most feminine of boys, with the earliest onset and already behaving as girls and saying they were girls at the age of 2. Have you read Stoller? Have you read that his colleague Green found that these boys grow up to be largely gay and not trans?
Green followed the most extreme boys and wriote the Sissy Boy Syndrome. These boys are pre-homosexual boys. Just because you don't like it, well.....
Jazz is no more feminine than the boys described by Stoller....read bro

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 17:48 PM

OII members state the facts, even though they may not be obvious. What is obvous is you have bought in to the GID of childhood hype that it is about gender IDENTITY, when it is clearly not. There are many Klinefelter's who don't have the appearance which you describe. It is somewhat semantics.
Not all those with XXY are Klinefelter's, since they don't all have the features which Klinefelter described. There are also XY Klinefelter's. The point is, there can be fertile Klinefelter's, Klinefelter's with or without breast enlargement ada ada ada.....and I am beginning to beleive more and more that you don't know what a true transsexual is.....I suppose you have also a NOVEL scientific technique for the "obvious existence" of transsexuality in Dylan, the extreme feminine 5 year old boy on Oprah two years ago.
Try selling that NOVEL technique to Swaab....cause H Farmer you don't have a clue...again MOST such boys turn out to be gay...

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 17:56 PM

Hello Hontas

The problem with what you are saying Sophia is that people who have KS generally show signs and symptoms. A well known transsexual known to have KS would be Caroline Cossey. This is not unbelieveable just because she is pretty. Caroline has the signs and symptoms of KS (+ usage of early feminizing hormones and a pinch of surgery).

The only thing I will say about Klinefelters, is let someone with Klinefelters tell you about Klinefelters. Please tell me where I have pointed out signs and symptoms rather than make a sacrstic comment about how the Clarke Northwestern define people. Interesting that you mention Caroline Cossey, she came close to an otherwise impossible ideal, (I belive the ideal is something like Cossey's figure with Lauren Baccal's face). Not many women fit that, not even Cossey when you think about it.

Cossey is a woman, not because she has Klieinfelters or because of the way she looks, but because, well she is a woman. It is the pedants and bigots who say differently.

"Don't go looking at pictures."

Sophia I am not calling you a liar or anything. But do you understand why I have to be skeptical. So many people would claim to be intersexed who are not. They do so on the Basis of saying that they have "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" which is a condition one will not find in any medical reference anywhere ever

I know how skeptical you are about my own self descriptions, but you may also be aware by now that I really don't care. Why would I want to be trying to legitimize my femininity?

I loathe the two sex system so why would I? also if I was born male, had a wife, and so many kids, along with a nice job and a peaceful life, I don't think I would debating this stuff really, why would I?

As for "Male Assignation" you are right as it happens, no one could make anything resembling male penis certainly not in the past. But when some in OII say "I was assigned male and rejected it" it may have more to do with the right royal mess that was made in the attempt, not every medical body followed Dr John Money's Blanket feminization policy. sometimes surgery was not even involved, some simply rejected the socialization. Do you have a prejudice against them as well?

You see I (Probably wrongly) associate what you are saying with the Hines Trolling Script from the Clarke Northwestern. Let's face it according to that script no one who was born intersexed was raised as male (Wrong) according to that script anyone who was and rejected it is a "Lying transsexual" (Wrong). And according to that script anyone who denies what that script says is "Going against the community" (They are "Un-Mutual").

Also I have yet to meet a "Late transitioner" or "Secondary" or "Autogynephilic" transsexual person who says they "Switched roles" purely out of spite against "medical opinion". I was born intersexed, assigned a sex without consent and live to metaphorically kick those responsible in the teeth at every opportunity. (And saying that does not win me any friends or legitimacy either) so yes I am skeptical about what you are saying, or rather why you are saying it.

To me it reads like "Medical opinion" kicking back. At least they have the balls to answer back (I await the "Anonymousinsult@yahoo.com" emails, I have not vented my rage for a while) .

But Hontas, seriously, you are above all this, my argument is not your argument, If you don't agree with Curtis, ask Curtis, please don't attack OII as a whole in the process. and please please don't be quoting the Hines Trolling Script, (If you are) because that will not work either.

You are a scientist with a bright future, enjoy it.

All the best

Sophie

Sophia Siedlberg | 06/11/08 | 15:07 PM

What "Trolling Script" I have no idea what you are talking about. You people are claiming people like "Jazz" from 20/20, Or Maria (a.k.a.) Juanita from TMWWBQ aren't transsexuals. That as people who were at one time feminine boys they are simply being used to pathologise "real transsexuals" It is you lot who are trolling not me. I never called you a liar. Take your problems with other people to them and tell them not me. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 15:55 PM

H Farmer TROLLS against Mr. Hinkle and OII with false accusations. Hey Farmer, there is no evidence that Jazz or any fictional category in TMWWBQ is transsexual. First off, don't you remember that transsexuals don't exist? They are homosexuals or autogynephiles. Ask Bailey. Ask Blanchard. Ask Zucker. If you have a problem with Mr. Hinkle's article, you should know that it is because he exposes the truth-the great majority of those extrmeme feminine boys grow up to be gay-and that is SEXUAL, as in sexual orientation as in gay or as in homosexual. Thus, GID of childhood is exposed as the lie which people from Clarke have perpetuated, that it is about gender identity, which of course, in the vast majority of cases, Mr. Hinkle ingeniously demonstrates that it is NOT. Show us otherwise. Put up or shut up. Because you can talk about all that Jazz,
and others, but you recklessly avoid SQUARELY pointing out anything other than anecdotal "evidence" that these boys are transsexuals. Gosh, I can name a few persons who have went public with their femininity stories, had SRS, and felt that they goofed it, because they later realized that although they were very feminine boys, had SRS lived as a woman for years, that they were gay. Have you heard of Sarah (Jeffrey) Luiz or seen this person's pix? How about
Yosef Kirchner? How about Sy Rogers, who lived as a woman for years and was considered a true prime case for SRS at Johns Hopkins? Have you seen Sy Rogers' pictures? heard his voice? Perhaps you think that Zucker's therapy changed them from transsexuals into gay men? LOL....Hey Bro, stick with UFO's

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 17:41 PM

"Gosh, I can name a few persons who have went public with their femininity stories, had SRS, and felt that they goofed it, because they later realized that although they were very feminine boys, had SRS lived as a woman for years, that they were gay. Have you heard of Sarah (Jeffrey) Luiz or seen this person's pix? How about Yosef Kirchner? How about Sy Rogers, who lived as a woman for years and was considered a true prime case for SRS at Johns Hopkins?"

Apart from these anecdotal evidences, we have numerous scientific studies that have shown that on a general level homosexual transsexuals who did already show gender variance as little children are usually far much better adjusted and and much more happier after transition and/or surgery than nonhomosexual transsexuals without a history of childhood variance.
This is a wellestablished outcome of research!

You may throw as many names as you like but studies show that both dropout rates and after-surgery-regret is much more prominent among nonhs transsexuals than amongst hs transsexuals.
In the context of these studies that names you have mentioned appear as only very incidental cases.
Furthermore, some cases like that have only been brushed up by the tabloid industry and/or were instrumentalized by the political rightwing.
The examples that Hontas has given, however, are consistent with these studies.

Needless to say that nevertheless I, unlike you, still defend the right of both segments of the transcommunity to transition and to have surgery and I know that surgery can be of a big therapeutic significance to many members of both segments.
No ifs and buts!

Leyla Jagiella (not verified) | 02/06/09 | 05:21 AM

Hello Hontas

What "Trolling Script" I have no idea what you are talking about.

The "Melissa Hines" Trolling script, I am not sure why it is attributed to her, but it is so there you go, My copy is about 18 pages of "posting tactics".

You people are claiming people like "Jazz" from 20/20, Or Maria (a.k.a.) Juanita from TMWWBQ aren't transsexuals. That as people who were at one time feminine boys they are simply being used to pathologise "real transsexuals" It is you lot who are trolling not me.

Well I have never commented on the people you mention so it is not really something I can comment on now, however Para 2 Page 1 advises people to accuse the target of saying things they did not.

I never called you a liar.

Ah yes, hang on, seeding, the bit about saying "I am not calling you a liar but" (Actually given as the example) Page 3 Para 1 when the target responds, regardless of what they say you are supposed to say "How dare you say I called you a liar this is just typical of people like you"

Take your problems with other people to them and tell them not me.

Para 4 page 6 talks about claiming that the target is bringing their personal problems into the debate, this is after claiming that the target has (I Quote) "Problems significantly different to those they actually have!" I believe the idea is that they feel "Erased" (The wording used in the text) And feel the need to respond by mentioning their actual problems.

Fascinating stuff really, I believe that this "Script" was written using techniques in psychoanalysis, where the core maxim is "If the target says one thing, turn it round and claim they are saying the opposite"

I will admit you may not have a hard copy or a PDF copy of it in front of you but you certainly are talking as if you are quoting from it. There is an interesting bit about sockpuppets. "When using an Alias, it is advised you use a generic email address, such as Yahoo or Google after the "@" symbol, and use names that sound "English" and "Upper Middle Class".

Curious, very curious.

Now if I am right you should turn round now and say that I have no such script in front of me, and that I am just trying to troll you. The truth is I am simply waiting for Hontas Farmer to say something rather than what I suspect to be a script.

State you own opinion Hontas, as I say you are above all this.

All the best

Sophie

Sophia Siedlberg | 06/11/08 | 19:21 PM

Hello Hontas

I am a tad curious, why do you mention Klinefelters syndrome and Caroline Cossey? Seems a bit of a sideways comment as Klinefelters does not represent the entire spectrum of intersex conditions, (That is it is one of a number of conditions listed under "intersex" or "DSD") And Cossey states she has Klinefelters syndrome in her book "My Story" when she had a "Bucle test" (Actually Buccal Smear test, that is ripe for a choice play on words.)

I am wondering why you focus on that.

All the best

Sophie

Sophia Siedlberg | 06/11/08 | 19:40 PM

Oii has provided support for my point about skepticism about claims of being intersexed. Look at this item on Oii's website. Apparently people do fudge about being intersexed. (we have to bear in mind the reports referenced there are media reports. The media has trouble getting things right in the cases of transsexuals OR intersexed people respectively. Those statements may not be totally the responsibility of Bo Laurent.) Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/11/08 | 17:00 PM

well it has been reported that transphobic transsexuals sometimes try to convince themselves that they are intersex. BUT, it has also been reported that homophobic homosexuals have tried convincing themselves that they are transsexuals. I get concerned when they try to convince others. Mr. Hinkle has given solid data. You have given anecdotes...again, put up bro...but this time, you can't go to BBL, because they think transsexuals are homosexual (if not hetero paraphilics)

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 18:01 PM

Thanks for spreading the word about Bo Laurent.

Although you don't understand intersex, you are certainly helping intersex people by exposing the problem.

Curtis E. Hinkle (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 17:13 PM

BO LAURENT? Who in the 7 wonders of this world and in the great galaxies of the universe is this Bo Laurent? Tell me more about him babee....oh, and your pic Mr. Hinkle is cool....Mr. hinkle, u b a hunk in a 1/2 hehehehehehehe

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 18:04 PM

Hi tumbleena,

Kiss, kiss. Rainbows of hermaphrodite kisses, babe.

http://www.intersexualite.org/besos_hermafroditas.html

Anonymous (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 18:25 PM

oooh Curtis babee....you are a stuf muffin...and that beard (no members of the group, I do NOT mean a woman cover for a gay man) gives you such a baldwin look...tumbleena will do cartwheels 4u at ur request lol

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 22:44 PM

Bo Laurent IS Cheryl Chase, or Cheryl Chase IS Bo Laurent. At least Marilyn Volker unlike Bo Laurent finished her degree at The Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. I never believed in ISNA, and that is not because I think Curtis is cute LOL

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 22:39 PM

H Farmer, you already think that ma vian Rose is about a transsexual boy? c'mon now. even the late Jayne Thomas
(who knew Dr. Green) would discuss the problems with this and that it is a "sissy boy" issue. I suppose there are transsexuals in Paris is Burning too? Do you think Venus Extravaganza was transsexual? I think it is aweful what happened to Venus, but transsexual? C'mon......again, you seem to double-talk...I mean Bailey has Paris is Burning in his TMWWBQ as a recommendation, but we all know it is about fem drag queens, and NOT trans....

tumbleena (not verified) | 06/11/08 | 18:15 PM

LOL Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/12/08 | 09:28 AM

Yo Come On Move This

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=07NJhUSnWlM

http://www.intersexualite.org/besos_hermafroditas.html

Shake That Body
Shake That Body

People dont you know, dont you know
its about time
cant you hear the jam is pumpin
while you taste the piece of mine
many different flavours
and the bass is strong
get into the hot stuff
let me pour a little on

Baby let me show you how to do dis
you ve gotta move this
youre doing fine
theres nothing to it
you gotta move this
come on and move this
shake that body for

People dont you know....

Can you feel the mellow crawling fast
drum oh baby
rhythms blast
pump it pump it pump it up
bet you cant make this once stop

youve gotta move this
youve gotta move this

shake that body ah
shake that body cool

People dont...

Pump It taken
Fingers snappin
hands club and Mamas Rappin
Talkin about cold loughin
shut up and you the one
use what you got show me
your on the floor so let me see
dont say nothing less i saw
and remember i like it raw

Baby let me show...

Curtis E. Hinkle (not verified) | 06/12/08 | 10:47 AM

J. Michael Bailey and Kiira Triea wrote the following about the "feminine essence narrative". I decided I would write about the forced feminization narrative.

"Although autogynephiles in denial prefer the standard feminine essence narrative, this does not necessarily mean that wide acceptance of that narrative is in their best interests. In general, it seems likely that the best clinical and personal decisions are made on the basis of accurate conceptualizations. For example, we have noticed that some transsexuals we would classify as autogynephilic have chosen to pursue sex reassignment surgery after being diagnosed as "transsexual" rather than "transvestite," a diagnostic moment they often recount with a sense of relief."
What many transgender activists don't want you to know: and why you should know it anyway. J. Michael Bailey and Kiira Triea. Perspectives in Biology and Medicine 50.4 (Autumn 2007): p521(14).
**************************************************************************
Autogynephilic transsexuals and the forced feminization narrative

Although autogynephilic transsexuals in denial often prefer the standard forced feminization narrative and posing as intersex, this does not necessarily mean that wide acceptance of that narrative has helped the intersex community at all or had any beneficial effects on health care of children born intersexed. In general, it seems likely that the best clinical and personal decisions for real intersex infants and adults are made on the basis of accurate conceptualizations coming from intersex people themselves, not autogynephilic transsexuals posing as intersex people who constantly repeat their forced feminization narrative. For example, we have noticed that some autogynephilic transsexuals we would classify as
proponents of the forced feminization narrative were living as male well into adulthood and therefore there could be no force involved in their feminization.

What many autogynephilic transsexual activists don't want you to know: and why you should know it anyway. By Curtis E. Hinkle.

Curtis E. Hinkle (not verified) | 06/15/08 | 21:49 PM

After speaking with Sophie Siedlberg and thinking about how the previous post could be misunderstood, I am retracting the whole post. I apologize to everyone.

Curtis E. Hinkle (not verified) | 06/16/08 | 10:36 AM

Don't apologies for stating the obvious. One is not intersexed just because they say so. Intersexed conditions are a very specific thing. Though I myself believe that transsexuals of all kinds are born not made or willed into being I do not think it is honest to equate that to being born with ambiguous genitalia or some similar condition. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/16/08 | 12:01 PM

Hello HFarmer

I had a very nice email from a freind of mine called Donald this morning, he reminded me of the need to look at some newspaper archives dating back to 1998. There was a fascinating article about someone who was "Gender troubled" and who made threats in their school that got them arrested.

Are the psychiatrists driving their patients to such behavior?

Daniel Meadeway (not verified) | 06/26/08 | 08:30 AM

Are you trying to blackmail me? You do realize that's a felony?

I wrote about this in the bio linked to my user page. Basically that was all trumped up by the school's administration to prevent me from coming to the prom with a male date, perhaps even in drag. My proclivities were known as was my obvious changes brought on by hormone use. There was also a certain very well built football player with whom I was quite open. (ahem!)

That was a time where one could not expect a random high school to have a GLBT youth club, (that school still does not). Yes the mid-late 90's were a time of more opening up but people are not all out and accepted everywhere by any means. Still to this day.

As soon as the school year was over almost the whole matter was dropped but for weekly counciling i was ordered to go to. That councilor referred me to the Howard Brown Health center and it's trans support group. Which lead to me meeting a certain psychologist who was looking to study transsexuals. He was the first psychologist I death with who knew jack about shit when it came to transsexualism. Personally he reminded me of Al Bundy in some ways. Would that I had not had to deal with the extreme ignorance of others instead of his merely strange ideas my life could be quite different. Who can know? There are so many little circumstances, connections, etc. Who can know?

Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/28/08 | 21:44 PM

Farmer

Are you trying to blackmail me? You do realize that's a felony? I wrote about this in the bio linked to my user page.

I never saw Daniel mention your name or accuse you of anything. Why do you accuse people of so many things? You accuse Curtis Hinkle of saying bad things about younger transsexual people, you accuse other members of his organization of being "Autogynepphiles", Why is that an accusation? it is simply a diagnosis isn't it? or is it meant to be a term of offense? Why did you attack Sharon Gaughan. I do not understand what you are trying to say, it just looks like you don't like people.

Robert Davidson (not verified) | 06/29/08 | 05:41 AM

First the definition of black mail as found in the Merriam Websters online dictionary.

Main Entry:
black·mail
Pronunciation:
\ˈblak-ˌmā(ə)l\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
black + ¹mail
Date:
1552
1: a tribute anciently exacted on the Scottish border by plundering chiefs in exchange for immunity from pillage
2 a: extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution b: the payment that is extorted
— blackmail transitive verb
— black·mail·er noun

Do you think the readers here at scientific blogging are stupid? Do you think I am stupid? To say that their was no implicit threat of exposure in what you wrote is total BS. Please please go on and expose those news paper articles. If theyway what you say they do they would hactually streathen many of the things I say about myself. (Remember according to some people I am a 45 year old investment banker mascureading as a young transsexual woman. :-? Those news papers would conclusively prove that to be false. They would also prove some key things I say about myself in my bio are true. I have no fear of some 10 year old chargers that were dropped because they were total BS.)

Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/30/08 | 12:20 PM

With all respect H Farmer.

I did't write anything other than the fact that Daniel never mentioned you in connection with the newspaper report.

RD.

Robert Davidson (not verified) | 06/30/08 | 12:29 PM

A few points to toss into the pot.

Children are not transsexual as children - they may have what is called Gender Identity Disorder. Some children with gender identity issues grow up to become transsexuals, some do not. The idea of transkids is a myth - GIDkids would be more appropriate.

By definition, adults with GID who have reassignment surgery are described as having a transsexual outcome - so while some people can have GID without becoming transsexual, it is hard to see how somebody who does not have reassignment surgery can be described as transsexual (possibly somebody who is unable to have reassignment and has some other form of intervention short of full reassignment surgery may be). Usually people who have GID, change roles, but forego the option of surgery are referred to as transgender rather than transsexual (not in the Virginia Price sense, though). What constitutes reassignment may differ (for example, between MtF and FtM).

OII doesn't have any positions on transsexual issues per se, as far as I am aware. Individuals in OII may have their own views on these issues. That is because OII is an intersex organisation. I am not aware of any official support for the HBS proposition within OII myself (although there may be individuals who go along with it - I am not aware of this though). It is important to remember that intersex is not the same as what people are now calling 'DSD', and former intersex activists (like those in the now defunct ISNA) are going to great pains to distance themselves from their past as intersex activists. It is true that DSD is a set of diagnosable conditions and symptoms, and one can be assessed as having (had) a DSD or not. I know I fulfil this category, were I to choose to go along with it. I do not, I prefer a term like variation to disorder. Whether I regard myself as being intersex is independent to my having a DSD or not. Being intersex is for me about my identity, in the same way that being lesbian, gay, transsexual, transgender, male, female or straight is about identity for others. It is about my experience as an intersex person. Some people with DSD's will have little or nothing in the way of experience of being intersex, others will have a lot - so some will choose to deal with it purely as a medical issue, others as something intrinsic to who they are and their experience of life. I find it hard to see how somebody who does not have an experience of treatment for (or discovery of) what are being called DSD's would come to think of themselves as intersex. I personally do not see that transsexuality itself is a form of intersex per se, but I know that there is a certain overlap where some people dealt with in similar ways to transsexuals also have an intersex history and have at some point had signs and symptoms that point to DSD in their lives. It seems perfectly sensible for these people to regard themselves as intersex rather than transsexual, if they identify with intersex issues rather than transsexual issues. HBS, AGP & HSTS theories about the causation of transsexual GID are irrelevant in this matter.

M

Michel Brien | 06/30/08 | 10:59 AM

People who have everything but SRS weather MTF or FTM can be just as transsexual as someone who does...

Michael wrote:

Children are not transsexual as children - they may have what is called Gender Identity Disorder. Some children with gender identity issues grow up to become transsexuals, some do not. The idea of transkids is a myth - GIDkids would be more appropriate.
By definition, adults with GID who have reassignment surgery are described as having a transsexual outcome - so while some people can have GID without becoming transsexual, it is hard to see how somebody who does not have reassignment surgery can be described as transsexual (possibly somebody who is unable to have reassignment and has some other form of intervention short of full reassignment surgery may be). Usually people who have GID, change roles, but forego the option of surgery are referred to as transgender rather than transsexual (not in the Virginia Price sense, though). What constitutes reassignment may differ (for example, between MtF and FtM).

I will defer to the words of a couple of transsexuals on this matter who have a different perspective than many of the ones who are likely to write books on this topic or be refered to as "academics". I have to remove the context that surrounds these words because with it we some could get hung up on extraenous issues and use them in invalidate their points. Let me just say I agree with them both. I can think of nothing more brilliant, more heartfelt more raw real and right to say about this than what these ladies have wrote. And I quote........

Ms Reina Valentino (non-op):

As a trans woman, I feel that my genitals don't make me or break me. I am a woman on the inside and I am happy with that. Being female means to ME thats you can bear children. I can never to that, no surgery in the world could make that happen, so I am comfortable with the genitals that I have. It has also been my observation that ts with vagina's are no beeter of in life than a ts with her penis. To hardcore closed minded people, we are men, always will be no matter what. And puzzling to me is older ts with no cosmetic work done run and get a vaginal, and look like horrid crossdressers and always have to flaunt that they have a vaginal. Id rather be a pretty self confident trans woman, than a crossdresser with a gash between my legs. No girls on here I'm just saying what I obverved in my life. Now in the case odf my sister Danielle Fox she is a beautiful woman and I think before her surgery she was so unclockable to me, and I see how she got her surgery, and I love her for it. But on the flip side, I have met some scary stuff. Thats just my point of view.

Ms. Danielle Foxx (post op):

I would like to add that I do feel female. I don't ever get questioned, even by those who do know I am a trans woman. Being a woman to me is not having a vagina or being able to have kids. It is more then that and then multiply it by a trillion. After my surgery it doesn't even cross my mind that I have to prove my self or feel as I should. My daily life is just "living". I feel free, happy, content, confident, fulfilled... The surgery does not make me any better then let's say my pre-o friend Vicki who has a great quality life and who I look up to a lot, or even girls like Allanah who lives in the trans scene and is a great business woman.

The trick for me is not placing high expectations on myself and expecting validation from others. I am not a female, I agree with you, genetic females are those who give life, however, I do feel blessed for having been born in a time where I could at least be close enough to a female who cannot have children. I am extremely happy with my body and I love myself so much. In a confident way as opposed to arrogantly.

As Peggy, I am a proud post op woman, and I am not ashamed to disclose that with anyone. I want to be surrounded with people who accept and love me, and people who I can share knowledge with. That being mentally and spiritually.

Your post is an inspiration to others. Everyone is who they are and there is no reason to ask someone... " Why are you who you are "? There is no substantial answer to that question. We can all keep talking abut this forever but the real answer is within us all. That is a question that should better be asked while looking in the mirror.

What makes me... me? Why am I who I am? What makes me a human? Is it my physical body?

I believe that we are human because we are the only animals with a conscience.

Conscience is a hypothesised ability or faculty that distinguishes whether our actions are right or wrong. It leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral values, and to feelings of rectitude or integrity when our actions conform to our moral values. It is also the attitude which informs our moral judgment before performing any action. The extent to which such moral judgements are based in reason has been a matter of controversy almost throughout the history of Western philosophy.

So I ask you Michael and others what is the functional difference that would make Danielle Foxxx a "true blue" transsexual and Reina Valentino not? In all those ways that define the category transsexual they are transsexual.....

To me a "transgender" is someone who is a only part time or who is gender variant without full time cross living. (i.e. A drag queen who performs in drag but lives as perhaps a particulary effiminate male. VS. A non-op transsexual who performes in drag but furthemore lives as a woman, has F or female all all her ID and legal papers, and is in every way like a post op but for the op. )

But you know what's really sweet? My blog is so powerful that if you google "Curtis Hinkle" THIS BLOG ENTRY IS WHAT SHOWS UP THIRD! In light of how much internet presence this guy has. ROTF MUUWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!! MAO

pwnd

Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/30/08 | 12:59 PM

Can I just point out that neither of these says they are transsexual. I would not dispute that both are equally valid as women, but they refer to themselves as 'trans women'. I would never presume to judge somebody who is transgender, lives full time as a woman, as being in some way inferior to somebody who is transsexual - nor that they are 'merely' a cross-dresser, transvestite or drag queen. That is not a point of scientific or academic debate - it is one that displays extreme bigotry on your part.

Look at the ICD-10 definition:

F64.0 Transsexualism
A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex and a wish to have hormonal treatment and surgery to make one's body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex.

This category specifically excludes people with intersex or chromosomal conditions.

Gender Identity Disorders (F64) also includes non-fetishistic dual-role transvestism (F64.1), Gender Identity of Childhood (F64.2) (as opposed to some 'childhood transsexuality'), it also includes two other interesting categories:

F64.8 Other gender identity disorders
F64.9 Gender identity disorder, unspecified
Includes: gender-role disorder NOS

So, there is plenty of room in there for people who are intersex or who are not transsexual to be diagnosed and receive treatment for GID without their having to have a paraphilia instead. These last two categories are vague as to what is covered and what would be appropriate treatment. So, the way I see it, it is quite possible for somebody to change sex without their being transsexual and have transsexual surgery, and in your example refer to herself as a 'trans woman'.

M

Michel Brien | 06/30/08 | 17:21 PM

But the second person is post op. How could she not be a transsexual. The basis of your arguement is like saying a post op transsexual from thailand could not be a transsexual simply because they would not use english word to describe themselves. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 06/30/08 | 18:37 PM

Do you ever read what somebody else writes?

She said she was a trans woman - not a transsexual. Whether she is a transsexual or not is irrelevant. My point was that somebody who idenitifies as a trans woman may or may not be transsexual - it is you who assume these are synonymous.

Then you start waffling about Thailand for some reason.

There are people who are post-op who are not transsexual. I had genital surgery as a child, so am technically post-op, but that did not make me a transsexual. People who have surgery to correct the mistakes made in childhood, they are technically post-op, but it does not make them transsexuals.

You have very limited experience, perception and understanding. Life is more than one thing or the other - it is multifaceted and awesome. The sooner you get to realize this the happier you will be - and less concerned about what other people do with their lives.

M

Michel Brien | 07/01/08 | 03:12 AM

I read what you said. You say these people can't be transsexuals simply because in this one instance they did not use the word transsexual to describe themselves. That is the whole premise of your argument. I read what you said. I mention Thailand becuse there the ladies to not say "transsexual" when the describe themselves. As Nun Udomsak calls herself a katoey ...she is still a "transsexual womans sucess story ". As a transsexual from Latin America would call herself a travesti as Roberta Close has and still does do when speaking her native tongue...does she suddenly stop being a transsexual? :-/ I realize, Mike, that you are not saying that non-op transsexuals and those who do not espouse the "true feminine essence man trapped in womans body narrative" should have less rights. However there are some rather politically active members of our community who do think just that. The two women I quoted, I know for a fact they are transsexuals they meet every clinical definition. They don't need to constantly say it or go on and on about their op status as if a vagina would prove it. They know it, they live it. Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 07/01/08 | 09:58 AM

You said:

You say these people can't be transsexuals simply because in this one instance they did not use the word transsexual to describe themselves.

I did not say this - this is what you think I said, what you are reading into my words, but not what I actually said. My point was that your evidence does not show what you claim - because nowhere does the person who is non-op make it clear that she sees herself as a transsexual. Whether she is or not is irrelevant at this point - because the quote simply does not support your argument. I thought you were a scientist - surely you must know about evidence and stuff like that.

As for people in Thailand, that is beyond my knowledge - but I would suggest that katoey are katoey. To try and impose western definitions upon people from different cultures is crass imperialistic thinking. I wouldn't say that kinnar or hijra were transsexual, although some may see themselves that way - otherwise it is like saying that historically nadle (or berdache) were either transsexuals or gay men at a time when these descriptors did not exist. You cannot impose western categories on other cultures - and if you try to they make no sense.

Mish

Michel Brien | 07/01/08 | 18:44 PM

Hontas,

by the way, I know you do not read my posts properly, because I submit my posts using the name Michel, signing off as M, Mish, or Michel. That is Michel as is in Michel Foucalt, it is French masculine form of the name Michael, but it is Michel not Michael or Mike. My real name is Michelle, as it happens, but for the purposes of this forum I chose to use the masculinised form (Michel Foucault being somebody I admire), which is sometimes abbreviated to Mish as a nickname.

This illustrates using the wrong words when referring to other people. I would like to run past you a few more examples.

Example 1.

A white liberal in my country (UK) would describe you along these lines:

A black transsexual.

You may take exception to this, because I believe that in your country 'black' is seen as inappropriate in referring to African Americans and people of colour. Yet, in this country it is preferred.

Example 2.

A gay man in my country (UK) might well describe you thus:

A black trannie

Again, you might take exception to this (taking the first point as read) because trannie is seen as derogatory. However, here 'trannie' is sometimes used this way in an affectionate way in the gay community.

Example 3.

A lesbian feminist might describe you as:

somebody raised with male privelege undergoing genital mutilation in order to gain access to female space.

Whilst not widely accepted here, people still come out with these things from time to time. I expect you would not be too happy with this either (I know I am not).

Example 4:

Somebody familiar with rap and hip-hop culture in this country (UK) may well refer to you as:

batty-boy

I am sure you agree that this is highly offensive.

I am not even going to spell out what the white working-class skinhead from the East End of London would call you in example 5 - I am sure we can all imagine, and were I to spell this out I might well lose some friends and be barred from the list.

The point of these examples is this - even in cases where descriptions are made by well-meaning people (as in examples 1 & 2, and even some people who believe similar things to that in example 3), people who are politically correct, liberal, gay, right-on, etc., when transposed to a different cultural context can be inappropriate, meaningless or even offensive.

So, I might fulfill many of the criteria you point to that would make somebody a transsexual; I might have gender dysphoria; I might have occupied this gender role for seven years; but I simply cannot see myself as a transsexual, and neither can my partner - she is a lesbian and sees me quite clearly as a woman she is having a lesbian relationship with. I can accept that, but I don't really see myself as male or female.

I do not have the same narrative as transsexuals (not the GID, feminine essence, wrong body, AGP, HSTS, etc. narratives). I do not inhabit the same belief-system as transsexuals I have met and spoken with. I do not believe that surgery would serve any purpose in my life, other than to revive the memories of traumatic experiences from childhood. You might see me as a transsexual - but were you to describe me as a transsexual, I would be as pissed with you as you would me if I referred to you as 'he'. I would prefer I did not have to be one or other of these two genders - but that is all that is on offer because health-care people have tended to be myopic on these matters. I would prefer I had been left alone as a child, to work out my own direction. I am certain that would have entailed a similar outcome, but with far less grief.

I can see no benefit in knowing why people are transsexual - other than for medical people and psychologists in finding ways of preventing people from becoming transsexual in the first place. That, like trying to prevent people from being born intersex, is a bit like pissing in the wind as far as I am concerned.

Michel

Michel Brien | 07/01/08 | 19:31 PM

I see that Curtis Hinkels doccument has been reposted in a slightly different form. "The Gender Center Inc." Has posted his nonsense which asserts in many places that transsexual children do not exist. In particular that Male-to-Female transsexual children do not exist. Curtis Hinkel asserts that such boys grow up to be gay men and Never become transsexuals. The best counter to that garbage is the following. The below is a video of a child I mentioned in the first iteration of this debate. Her name is Jazz. She was on 20/20 about a year ago.

(There is nothing objectionable in the above simply a totally innocent child expressing the heart of what it is to be a transsexual.) How could anyone look at what Curtis E. Hinkle wrote and take it seriously after seeing that video? Dont tase me bro

Hontas Farmer | 10/03/08 | 07:32 AM

The essential flaw in Hinkle´s work, in my humble opinion, to which tumbleena and others here seem to have given in is that he sets up this opposition between "children with gender variance" and the "adult transsexuals" to come to conclusions regarding the etiology of transsexuality.
But it is not valid to use this opposition alone to come to the conclusion that he was lead to and that now others here try to instrumentalize for their own cause.

It is also not enough to add to this opposition a contrast of the higher percentage of "children with gender variance" who become gay men with the lower percentage of those who become transsexual women.

Yes, it is true that "children with gender variance" do not always grow up to become transsexual women and that a large percentage of these children does grow up to become gay men.
Noone can deny that.

However, what those who instrumentalize this fact for their own cause forget is that in comparison to "children without gender variance" who become transsexual women the percentage of those "children with gender variance" who turn out to become transsexual women is still significantly high !!
And that among successfully transitioned transsexual women the percentage of those who had been "children with gender variance" is also significantly higher than among the general biologically male population.
And these two observations in themself already establishes a significant statistical relationship between "children with gender variance" and "transsexual women".

Only after taking notice of these observations can further studies then establish theories on the relationship between those transsexual women who had been "children with gender variance" and those who had not and the relationship of both to homosexuality and heteronormative gender identity.
But establishing theories like that without looking at this significant statistical relationship is essentially useless!

Ignorance of this fact makes the instrumentalization of Hinkle´s work a total farce.
I could just as easily produce a similar farce by setting up an opposition between the percentage of "therapy patients who claim a cross-gender identity" who later really start living fulltime as women and the probably much higher higher percentage of "therapy patients who claim a cross-gender identity" who finally will not start a fulltime life as women and continue living as heterosexual men.
Shall I take as my conclusion from this opposition/farce that there is no real relationship whatsoever between people "presenting in therapy and claiming a cross-gender identity" and transsexuals living in the desired role?
Ridiculous, of course!

Leyla Jagiella (not verified) | 02/05/09 | 17:13 PM

Exactly.

Just because not ALL feminine boys or masculine girls grow up to be transsexual/transgender that does not mean the phenomena are not connected.

Hontas Farmer | 02/06/09 | 10:25 AM

Hontas,

My, what a long winded thread. I just can't resist adding to it.

First, so that no one can wonder where my own biases lie, though ad hominem arguements should never be made, the POV discussion above leads me to reveal that I would probably be best described as a "homosexual transsexual"... and find that Blanchard's research has pointed in the right direction. I was recently published on transkids.us website.

That said, I find Leyla Jagiella's arguements wonderfully stated. OF Course most extremely feminine boys become gay men, not transsexuals. OF Course that means that GID diagnoses should not be used as an excuse at reparative therapy, since that is a natural pathway to a non-pathology, to wit, homosexuality. But that in no way implies that transsexual children don't exist. But, it is *clinically* difficult to determine which of these children will follow a homosexual but comfortably non-transsexual, and those that will follow a homosexual transexual, pathway. Just because we can't determine that in childhood doesn't neccessarily follow that it isn't already determined (Hontas: shades of Bell's Theorem, LOL), nor does it follow that we won't someday learn how to do so.

Personal anecdotes are not scientific evidence, but they can give clues and offer insights: Mr. Zucker's efforts to discourage feminine behavior sound frighteningly like my own childhood. Trust me when I say that no one, not a soul, encouraged nor tolerated any overt feminine behavior on my part. I was directly admonished and sometimes cruely punished when I did so. Further, I was strongly encouraged to pursue masculine pursuits. All that led to was extreme shame and low self-esteem. My mother, on my wedding day (to a wonderfully understanding man) said to my Matron of Honor, seeking sympathy (which she didn't get) that I was "such a good boy until he was 17". That is, I toed the line, at home at least, until I dramatically came out and refused to hide neather my sexual orientation nor my naturally feminine behavior... and demanded to live as a young woman, which I have done ever since, thirty-four years since! No, Mr. Zucker is fooling himself, because most of his charges will naturally, no thanks to his intervention, "de-feminize" to become gay men. I don't gambol, so, when I say that I'm willing to lay money down that if he has more than a few hundred patients, he will have a couple that will transition in their teens or early twenties... no more, nor no less, that would have happened without his ministrations, that I'm that dead certain. The most he will do is drive many to feel shame and self-loathing. (At the age of ten, I too was sent to a therapist... possibly to dump on my feminine behavior... though in actual practice, the therapist focussed instead on helping me with low-self-esteem and such...)

I'm going to make a wildly speculative hypothesis about the difference between those that follow a non-transsexual path and those that do: Blanchard's work on developing retrospective instruments points the way:

"Measuring physical aggressiveness in heterosexual, homosexual, and transsexual males"
http://www.springerlink.com/content/n3755762121624g8/

The level of the willingness to participate in physically aggressive behavior is different between non-trans-homosexual and homosexual transsexuals. It suggests that there is already a difference, and that that difference grows as they grow older. My hypothesis is that something is different in a part of the brain not directly responsible for sexual orientation, but is highly correlated with it... and that something is capable of being masculinized by endogeous hormones as the child nears puberty... but for some reason, those on the homosexual transsexual pathway do not masculinize as the gay boys do. This would fit Blanchard's and other's observation that HSTS transkids are physcially smaller and more (remarkedly so) somatically feminine. (OK, more admission of potential bias: I'm 5'8", with small hands and feet... and passed as a girl easier than as a boy, before HRT.) Why we don't masculinize is an open question, thought tantalizing hints have suggested that mutations for some androgen receptors may be part of it.

Finally, a note on the HSTS/AGP "controversy". I'm deeply, very personally saddened by it. Of course all non-homosexual transsexuals are autogynophilic... SO WHAT !?!? There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong or pathological about being autogynophilic... though it can cause much personal distress, both to the individual AGP TS and to her family. Nearly 35 years of hanging out with all sort of folks have meant that I've loved as close friends, both autogynophilic and homosexual transsexuals. Who said the line, "Can't we all just get along?" But... to those that would deny that homosexual transsexuals exist... and deny their own AGP based transsexuality... I can only sigh in dissappointment.

The homosexual transsexual contributions to the GLBT rights movement are indeed legend... but I would point out that we can thank the persistence of autogynophilic transsexuals for the ease with which we can obtain SRS and legal recognition today. Without their help, we would still be slinking in the shadows where gays were back before the '70s.

Hontas... I sent an email directly to you a couple days ago, using my real name... you might want to google it to learn more about me... I'm probably *much* closer to being like you than the one you aluded to above. I do hope you will correspond with me.

Hugs and Healing to All,

Cloudy

Cloudy (not verified) | 04/02/09 | 16:10 PM

Oh I will have to check for that email. My email address on this blog may not be up to date.... that and I have a few of them. Some I check often, some I rarely check. I am sorry if I missed it.

To your points. The tactics of Zucker and so many many others use to try and avoid boys growing up gay, or transsexual women, are not what I defended above. What really got me going was Curtis Hinkel's total and complete denail of the existance of transsexual children. Which is something he could have seen was false just by opening his eyes?

I agree with most all of your points. As far as telling the difference between a future homosexual transsexual, and a future gay man, by childhood aggression, and masculinity....where to draw the line? Consider two very different sports. One is perceived as hyper masculine the other has a masculine side that is relatively ignored (at least in the USA). American football, and Gymnastics. You think football player you think of a linebacker or the quarter back. But what about the place kicker, who usually isn't so big or strong? One ex NFL player is know to have been gay... Or how about gymnastics? Gymnastics has no physical contact, in the US it is associated more with females than males. Yet with all that Bela Karolyi says he looks for an athlete who in his words "is a tiger", a certain level of aggression in his girls. On the other hand I am sure your average future homosexual transsexual did not go around bullying and beating up smaller boys. Just something to think about.

Like you I am thankful for the work that has been done by transsexuals who are likely to be autogynephilic on all our behalf's. I personally never thought of any of this as one kind of transsexual being better or more true than the other. I don't think any one else writing at transkids.us thought that. Others are at fault for that perception, non-homosexual transsexuals who think of a feminine essence, an psychologist who labled autogynephilia a paraphilia like beastiality. Yet we caught the hell for those other people's ideas. It's a hark knock life, what can I say? :shrug:

Hontas Farmer | 04/26/09 | 14:42 PM

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