Track your comments!
[x]


When you register, comments on your articles and replies to your comments appear here. Register Now!

Sign in to your account
[x]

Not a Scientific Blogging member yet?

Register Now for a Free Scientificblogging.com Account

  • Customize your profile with pictures, banner, a blogroll and more.
  • Leave comments on articles, add other members to your friend lists, chat with people on the site.
  • Write blog posts that can be seen by hundreds of thousands of readers.

It's free and it only takes a minute!

Already a Scientific Blogging member?

Sign In Now

Banner
By Hontas Farmer | September 15th 2009 03:35 AM | 6 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
What happened to all the enthusiasm?  Perhaps new astronomy will shed light on the matter.
In 2005 the anniversary of Einstein's miracle year there was much talk of "new Einstien"s and why there have been no new ones.   Carlo Rovelli published a very good book on the subject.  String theory and M theory were as hot as the surface of the sun.  In a heated exchange on Wikipedia I made the acquaintance of Lubos Motl.   There was much excitement 4 years ago.  So what happened?  Why no accepted theory of quantum gravity?  
  • String theory, planck scale strings interacting with M-branes in 11 dimensional space.   That's just one out of a number of string theories.   

  •   Loop Quantum Gravity where area is an operator and space-time is a spin foam at the Planck scale...

  • My very own theory where path length (s) as well as area are quantum operators, and space is the 4d lattice of the symmetry group, lie algebra, and lie group f(4) at the Planck scale.  


The problem with quantum gravity, in any and all theories that have a chance of being correct, is that they take strongest effect at length scales we may never be able to probe with any earthly accelerator.  To test any of them directly is virtually physically impossible.  


However take heart. There is some hope that astronomical observations may shed light on the subject.  For in each of the above theories it is just possible that at the highest energies the speed of light varies. High energy gamma ray burst may unveil a tiny variance between their emissions, and the ordinary light we have studied.  If so this would be a big pointer in the right direction.  The basic idea is that in a quantum space time the path a photon would take from one point to another would not be continuous.  It would evolve in a series of quantum leaps from one point to another to another.  The effect of the discreteness of space-time would be amplified when the wavelength of the light becomes comparable to the Planck length.  

To see this consider my little theory.  In it there is an operator S which gives the possible null path's for a ray of light or any particle. (Page 26) The eigenvalues of this operator are what makes space time quantized in my theory.  If a gamma ray had high enough energy there is a better chance that it would not select the shortest path at each step in it's long journey to our telescopes and hence it would arrive more slowly than light which has traveled here more quickly. 

That said I could not claim such a result as support for my theory exclusively, the same would be true of LQG and a non-perturbative background independent string theory as well.   

The current status of quantum gravity is that we are in a holding pattern.  Until we get new data there is nothing new to say.  

That said I have noticed a trend, of which I am now a part, to shift gears to quantum cosmology and the application of theories of quantum gravity to the early evolution of the universe.  That is where serious theoretical quantum gravity research has gone, for now.


Comments

YOUR THEORY NEEDS TO OFFER SOME MECHANISM OF HOW ISOLATED PARTICLES SMALLER THAN PLANCK MASS HAVE NO GRAVITATIONAL FIELDS, of their own unless induced to gravitate by some other gravitational field.

I can offer you the explanation from my EQUAL PARTITION OF THE VACUUM., that combines three familiar concepts of science into a model of virtual particles, vacuum energy, and zero point oscillators.

For example you could claim that an isolated particle of less than one plank mass has its energy equally partitioned between gravitational mass, and electromagnetic energy. If true then the particle would produce no gravitational field and no curvature of space, until subjected to the induction of a different gravitating mass. So the whole argument sort of makes sense.

Nothing like that has been reported experimentally, but we haven't done much testing on isolated particles in flat space.

If this is a major feature of physical science, then it should be observable by astronomy for low density clouds of gas or fine dust.

On the hand with similar reasoning if the isolated particle was subjected to more of an electromagnetic field than a gravitational field, then by induction it would add to the total electromagnetic field tending to curve space backward and accelerate the separation of galaxies.

It is possible to conceive of a universe with a lot of isolated particles, that sometimes accelerates and other times decelerates, depending on the induced polarization of the isolated particles.

Some sort of observable proof would be needed for that.

Hfarmer's picture
NO IT DOES NOT ITS THE SAME REASON FRACTIONAL CHARGES CAN'T APPEAR IN ISOLATION.
(YES quarks can have fractional electric charge, but due to the particulars of QCD they can never be isolated.... unless QCD is wrong. :-?  And I don't think there is any reason. )

Here is the case.  isolate some neutrons, who's mass is smaller than the CODATA value of the planck mass by far, and measure the gravitational effect that one neutron has on the other.  IF you can measure such an effect I will eat my book with Potato's and onions. 

I don't think you will because experiments done on falling ultracold neutrons only detected a bit of quantum interference.  No classical "gravitational" effects were reported to the best of my knowledge, or anyone's. 


ARE YOU SAYING THAT SLOW NEUTRONS DID NOT ACCELERATE IN EARTH GRAVITY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN DROPPED IN A LABORATORY TEST? Or did you intend to say the slow neutrons did not attract or repel each other with horizontal forces like micro gravity while they were free falling under Earth gravity field?

I'm not sure what your issue is with fractional charges or why they don't appear free in nature. Nothing I referred to required any type of fractional charge except in an average of 30 or more particles where the total charge was exactly 440, so there are no fractions, except in averages. My understanding of fractional charges is that separating them takes more energy than would be needed to make the missing fraction. so we always get mesons , but not free quarks.

Maybe you are making an analogy to fractions of gravity. I don't have any references to that either. If that is your intent then I would tend to agree with you, although I don't have proof or it.

My understanding of your original message was that space curvature occurs in quantum steps that appear continuous on the macro scale, but are strictly quantized on the Planck scale. I've always had that opinion, but no theory to support it.

So far every thing that was tested on the Planck scale was found to be quantized, so you made a good bet and will not likely be eating the books

Quantum mechanics prevents infinities from occurring, and the Planck scale quantization is one way it is done. If curvature was not quantized the other choices would be infinities of smaller and smaller changes. So if we didn't find Planck's scale operating where it is, then we should expect to find someone else making some other quantum scale somewhere in the small range.

I don't believe you will find any serious arguments against quantized curvature when infinities are the other choice. Not even ideal abstractions of mathematics give any arguments against quantized curvature.

That's not the problem.

My question was about why the underlying physical laws cause the smaller than Planck masses to behave as you predict in free space, and what underlying physical laws cause the particles to acquire gravitational fields when they are brought under the influence of a gravitational field.

I hope the answer is some thing about induction causing a shift in the distribution of different forms of energy inside the particle. If it is then the your theory could be an important link to new discoveries.

Thanks for your response.

Hfarmer's picture
I AM SAYING THAT NEUTRINO's ARE TOO MASSLESS TO GRAVITATIONALLY EFFECT EACHOTHER.  EARTHis far larger than the planck mass and of course has a gravitational field.  

If you wish to continue this dialog please cite a source which confirms that a system of neutral particles, not bound by any other force.  A system where only gravity can be demonstrates that the neutrons attract eachother gravitationally.  That is what needs to be done.  Null results would prove me right. 

You write of "induction" just how do you mean "induction".  Please define it.  I know what induction is in E&M and GR... but in Quantum Field Theories such things are not really spoken of.  In classical theory they are. 


BY INDUCTION IT IS INTENDED TO SAY THAT THE MACRO FIELD MAKES SOME SMALL PHYSICAL CHANGE TO THE COMPOSITION OF A PARTICLE THAT CAUSES IT TO ACQUIRE A NET GRAVITATIONAL FIELD.

Its a dangerous idea that quantum events should have some underlying physical cause and a mechanism for accomplishing the actions.

If necessary I would postulate more than one level of quantization with the smaller one based on virtual energy, virtual charge and virtual mass.

Without a physical cause and physical mechanism there is really no path forward to a unified theory.

I don’t have some of the things you asked for. Maybe another reader does.

Thanks

Hfarmer's picture
One particle cannot induce mass in another.  The closest thing to that in General Relativity is momentum-density currents.   In general relativity it is possible for the motion of allot of matter to "induce" a gravitational field.  Realize the gravitational field is not like any other field.  

In classical general relativity, particles follow the shortest path from point a to point b in a curved space time.  Such a path is called a geodetic path.  In classical general relativity there is one and only one such trajectory, depending on where the particle is in in a field.

In Quantum Space-Time Dynamics, it turns out that there are an infinite number of possible path's a particle can follow at any given point in space-time.  If we sum over all possible path's  the most probable (lowest energy) result is the same as it is for general relativity.... at least it has been in the calculations I have bothered to do so far. 

Gravity at the classical or quantum level is really not about a particle being exchanged between two other particles and "inducing" gravity in eachother.  

That said the fabled "graviton" does exist, but one cannot think of it as being 100% analogous to the photon. To me at least it's basically the smallest unit of space-time curvature that exist. 



Add a comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <sup> <sub> <a> <em> <strong> <center> <cite> <code> <TH><ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <img> <br> <p> <blockquote> <strike> <object> <param> <embed> <del> <pre> <b> <i> <table> <tbody> <div> <tr> <td> <h1> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <iframe>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
CAPTCHA
If you register, you will never be bothered to prove you are human again. And you get a real editor toolbar to use instead of this HTML thing that wards off spam bots.