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By Hontas Farmer | October 22nd 2009 04:44 PM | 10 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
You read right his "mad" idea is simply that electromagnetic fields effect the formation and evolution of cyclones.  What they proposed and measured in the paper, "Electromagnetic fields recorded in mesocyclones" by Richard Heene, Robert Stevens, and Barb Slusser, is a small effect.  The basic premise is sound, moving electric charges generate magnetic fields.   I have read myself and heard of things published on the arxiv which were patent nonsense. It stands to reason that a large mass of such charged matter, like thunder clouds is rotating it could generate a B field.  They measured this field and reported it.  This is at least not patent nonsense.  Heck I'll even say (baring fraud by all three researchers) it's perfectly sound science. 

My impression of this paper.
   
In a system like a cyclone one has to look to statistical methods and chaos theory (no not like in the butterfly effect actual chaos theory ).  Those theories lead to the fact that a small initial perturbation can lead to very different future evolution given what should be the same forces and conditions.  While I am certain that formation of cyclones can be explained well enough without accounting for the electromagnetic forces.  It is true enough, where there is lightning there is current, where there is current there is electromagnetism.  That's basic experimental physics. The best kind of physics.

I see applications to accurate weather forecasting and other things in this line of research.


Why do I flog this dead horse?


I don't know if this is a hoax.  As someone who has dealt with the law in a case which made local news... The papers have room to print three negative stories about you and sometimes not even two lines for the retraction or news of your exoneration. As someone who has had mere possession of any scientific knowledge and had reporters call me "cold and calculating" because of it.... I know.  I was in HS at the time and had all the know how one could get from non-calculus based physics and a 17 year lifetime of interest in science.  What made me cold and calculating? Being better at math than the average student there.  For the record I was exonerated in the end.   Not unlike Richard Jewell, or Patsy Ramsey, the list could go on.

Don't take the word of the lay press for what is and is not true about anything scientific.  I mean anything at all.  The reporters go to journalism school and maybe take a 100 level physical science class or two. They don't have the knowledge to evaluate the merits of any such idea.  Basically the media will rely on life circumstances (i.e. an academic position, degree's, etc) and confer credibility based on such marks.  When the real marks of credibility are publications and citations.

My points.
I hope this drives home the point that mere education, book learnins as such, does not make one a scientist.  Actually getting out there, in the lab, in the observatory, or theorizing with testable predictions, those are what makes one a scientist.  

Second don't believe what journalist say without a bit of skepticism.  Especially their assessment of what scientific theories are crackpot or not.  One must actually read the papers.  Think about them for a bit.  Academic appointments are a good guide, but not a guarantee of credibility , or is the lack of such a job/title a guarantee of incorrectness. 
This is all I have to say and I'll say no more. 

Comments

Yes, news reporting on science is bad, but really: This genuinely *is* a crackpot idea. I mean, sure, moving electrical charges produce magnetic fields. But Heene and the likes are convinced that the EM fields are the reason tornadoes and other intense geophysical vortices occur (which I can only guess is because in science fiction, EM fields can be used to do just about anything). There's a reason that no one is measuring magnetic fields as part of VORTEX2--fluid dynamics provides pretty good explanations for why these vortices happen. If Heene really were the weather expert or weather scientist he is all too often portrayed as on some of the weaker news coverage, he would know this, and would have calculated the effects of magnetic fields and seen them to be pretty negligible, and not waste his time. Maybe he could actually do something that actually contributes to our knowledge of the natural world. Instead, he's participating in that network of pseudoscientists and conspiracy theorists who are convinced that a secret shadow government is controlling the weather through the HAARP project.

I agree with some of what you say regarding poor portrayal of scientists in the media, but Heene is simply a crackpot. I suppose part of my strong reaction is how often popular media likes to call anyone who straps a wind vane to their car and drives into a storm or films a tornado from up close a "scientist" doing "research." An an actual scientist doing actual research on severe weather, this bugs me more than a little.

Hfarmer
Let me tell you this as an actual physicist.  EM fields do occur in any system in which charged particles are circulating. It is a basic law of Physics, Amper's law.  The loop does not have to be a wire (i.e. physicist know that the electrons circling an atom generate magnetic fields.)  If those fields are present then they will have some effect on the dynamics of the system. 
Nothing he wrote violates any laws of physics.  In fact Amper's law and the FACT that clouds can be electrically charged implies that his claims must be partially true. 

While fluid dynamics can explain why tornado's form.  It takes a careful consideration of far less linear, and straight forward physics, to explain their subsequent behavior.  

I suggest you take a basic introductory course in electromagnetic theory then talk to me. 



Uh, yeah, the fact that certain geophysical vortices can get electrically charged is well known, and their production of magnetic fields is a no-brainer. The idea that these magnetic fields have a significant impact on the evolution of these vortices is what puts him in crackpot land. We are familiar with physics in the atmospheric sciences, you know. It's pretty much all I do with my time. Try this: http://radarmet.atmos.colostate.edu/~tlang/2009/10/richard-heene-et-al-2...

And if you are confused enough to think that the magnetic fields generated by these vortices have anything to do with the dynamics of the systems, I suggest you take a basic course in geophysical fluid dynamics. I'm all for non-scientists taking an interest in science, or even scientific work being done outside our institutions, but Heene is definitely a pseudoscientist. Indeed, I'm a bit surprised that someone with a science blog would defend him. What's next? Michael Behe's valuable contributions?

"While fluid dynamics can explain why tornado's form. It takes a careful consideration of far less linear, and straight forward physics, to explain their subsequent behavior. "

Uh. Yeah. We have nonlinear dynamics in fluid dynamics. You've heard of chaos theory, right? And no, magnetic fields don't explain their subsequent behavior, although that is an active area of research right now. I mean, really, it takes a careful consideration of nonlinear dynamics just to explain tornadogenesis.

You only have this blog so you can fight with people, don't you?

Hfarmer
No I only fight with people who come here appeal to their supposed authority (yet at the same time maintain their anonymity so that one cannot verify said authority.)
Read up on Amper's law.  Read up on non-linear dynamics.  Then send me a civil message and we'll talk.  I'm well aware of the issue you have raised.  To a good approximation fluid dynamics explains the creation of toranado's.  However if all your satisfied with is an approximation that's you.  To get an exact answer to this problem one would need to quantatively consider every force that acts in the system.  EM is a big one to ignore.  

There are Millions no Billions of coulombs of charge moving around a thundercloud, Billions of amps of current, and somehow, your telling me that none of that matters. 

Prove it, don't just claim it, prove it.  Damm whatever degree's you have or who you are, prove your claims.  I have taken the trouble of reading Heene's paper.  He gathered that data with the help of two other "actual tornado scientist".  He measured non trivial magnetic fields.  I as a physicist, even though  I am not a geophysicist, think it would be interesting to know just what effect those fields have on cyclones great and small. 

You on the other hand, seem to just want to dismiss his idea's because what?  He don't got much education?  Mr/Ms. people who think like that are the kind who thought Jan Hendrik Shchon was brilliant without any question.  


My apologies.

Your competency is clearly far superior to mine, and every other scientist involved in tornado research.

You are clearly backing the right horse in your crusade against media stereotypes of scientists.

Well done.

Hfarmer
Now why do you have to take it like that.  You are talking about some really basic physics.  I am not tornado scientist, can you admit that you are not a theoretical physicist?  We all have limits, and it seems that when it comes to having a really deep understanding of electromagnetism you can't compare to me. I know everything from Maxwell's equation's to the Bahaba Scattering cross section, from classical electrostatics, to Quantum Electro Dynamics in great detail.   
Trust me if you don't even consider electro magnetic forces in your models then you should.  Add them in as a small perturbation  and see what they do.  What can it hurt nothing.  If it does anything it would make your forecasting more accurate. 


Oh, hey. I've played with Riemannian curvature tensors before, and I once learned about wavefunctions. I should get a blog that talks about how if I just think really hard I can heal the sick.

Thank you for inspiring me!

My compliments to you, Hontas, for displaying a bit of clarity in such a cloudy topic as tornado theory. I agree with you, that Heene's (single) published work on magnetic fields was actually legitimate field work (regardless of what a fraud he actually is). My compliments to you for seeing the truth despite the surrounding falsehoods. But Heene's "theory" is not correct. The magnetic fields that he measured (.2 gauss) were weaker than the Earth's magnetic field (.5 gauss). If such a weak magnetic field could motivate particulate matter upward from the surface of the Earth, why would there be any particulate matter left at the surface, after being exposed to the more powerful field from the Earth before the storm came along? And how could tornadoes persist over water, where it would take a magnetic field over 100,000 gauss to overcome gravity and elevate the weakly diamagnetic water molecules skyward?

Yet the "theories" in the fluid dynamics camp are equally as absurd. Computational fluid dynamics simulations can tell us with a high degree of confidence that at the relevant distances, speeds, viscosities, surface friction coefficients, etc., a tornado should not be possible. In fact, CFD demonstrates that it would take a supersonic updraft to generate a vortex that would expend the energy of a tornado at the surface of the Earth. Yet supersonic wind speeds motivated by low pressure are not physically possible. Then, when challenged, actual tornado scientists respond with insults and territorialism. This shows that they are no better than those who they are attacking.

The simple fact is that we don't know how tornadoes work. If you challenge the scientists, don't expect to get a scientific response -- they don't have one.

Hfarmer
Here is why such a weak field could influence a tornado, nonlinear effects. 
Suppose that say the effects due to CFD are linear for a moment.  Let's say the angular velocity of the wind speed (Pretend you could hover above a tornado and look down through it's center.) is something of the form.

 

The first term is linear, and leaves out the B field all together.  For the sake of argument let's say that's true.  Then add the second term.  You see that B is small, but this term contains the very velocity of the wind.  This makes the equation non linear.  In short once the wind gets whirling, even a little, the non linear effect of the magnetic field would kick in and propel it to the next step.   That equation above is just off the cuff conjecture.  

If CDF ignores non linear effects, and it does, then of course it would be a little off.  


By the same token the downfall of people like Mr. Heene is not knowing Mathematics on the level that a theoretical scientist needs to know it.  This is why their theories fail.  They have no way to state them, look at them, and see if they make any ever loving sense. 


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