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By Hontas Farmer | April 30th 2009 12:00 AM | 15 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
Autogynephilia: The love of one's self as a woman.  As used by psychologist and sexologist Ray Blanchard autogynephilia is a male's sexual attraction to the idea or image of their feminized self. 

Ray Blanchard had conjectured, as quoted by Moser, "Autogynephilia does not occur in women, that is, biological females are not sexually aroused by the simple thought of possessing breasts or vulvas” (Blanchard, 2005)"   Charles Moser in his paper "Autogynephilia in Women" which is in pre-press. 

Slated to appear in Journal of Homosexuality in the coming months.  Reports the findings of a small study he conducted to test this conjectureHe found that natural born straight women do experience autogynephilia.  So Blanchard's conjecture is wrong and the scientific method works, end of story.... 

Things are never that simple in the politicized field of sexology.

Blanchard theorized that male to female transsexuals who are not attracted to men are attracted to this ideal feminine self image, that they are autogynephilic.  One early manifestation of this being erotic cross-dressing beginning at puberty, one of the end points being full transition to a female life , transsexuality.  Trans activist do not like this notion for a number of reasons.    One being that sexual motivation for transsexual transition is seen by them to preclude their preferred explanation.  Which is that a feminine gender identity drives transition. 

A close second is that autogynephilia is interpreted, by the activist, to imply that male to female transsexuals are really men with dirty male sexual motivations.  As opposed to their being true women with a feminine essence, or female gender identity.

Charles Moser's study found that "By the common definition of ever having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman, 93% of the respondents would be classified as autogynephilic.  Using a more rigorous definition of “frequent” arousal to multiple items, 28% would be classified as autogynephilic."

There are some holes in this study.  Moser points out small sample size, and discusses most of the others in an intellectually honest and forthright manner.  Though I think he missed this one.   There is an assumption that administering the same sexual arousal related question to males and females and getting the same answers means the same things.  A straight woman being aroused while getting ready for a date with a man is probably plainly aroused by the man.  A anatomical male being aroused by the thought of knitting in a circle with women and being one of them, as Blanchard describes in one of his papers (Bailey 2003) is something else, I'm sure. 

He asked practically the same questions to the women as Blanchard asked to prospective transsexuals. I am sure that unless a natural born woman has some kind of sexual arousal problem they will answer yes to "have you ever become aroused while wearing women's underwear."  Since presumably most women are always wearing women's underwear.

Never the less Moser's finding is pretty much uncritically embraced by the trans activists without much thought.  After all it proves wrong one of Blanchard's minor conjectures.  My question is...

Will Moser's finding cause a eruption of transsexual women who once found the notion of autogynephilia abhorrent and inherently offensive coming out as autogynephilic? Does this give them the cover to say "real women" do it too?

For a long time now many trans activists ( i.e.  Andrea James, Lynn Conway, Joelle Ruby Ryan and the illustrious professor Dierdre McCloskey) have crusaded against the very notion of autogynephilia, or denied the very existence of autogynephilia.  A few less well known transsexuals claimed, often on Internet bulletin boards, that natal women could experience autogynephilia.  Others have formulated a concept they call being a woman born transsexual who suffers from "Harry Benjamin Syndrome". 

Women in those two groups and their like minded cohorts have at times sought to vilify psychologist, especially sexologist and have the whole field declared a pseudo-science.  A very small group of transwomen have publicly embraced the concept of autogynephilia, such as Anne Lawrence, and Willow Arune.  The transactivist have had a tendency to insult those transwomen who came out as autogynephilic such as Lawrence and Arune.

Look at the websites of these people and consider what I am about to say.  A brief look will be all it takes to get the drift of how each feels about this issue.

The transactivist claim that autogynephilia is based on pseudo science.  That it is automatically offensive and hurtful and stigmatizing to those who are labeled with it.   That autogynephilia is just the work of a transphobic quack named Ray Blanchard.  They call those who come out and talk about experiencing autogynephilia like Anne Lawrence and Willow Arune horrible names, call them men, call them perverts.

They call for the closing down of the research clinic where Blanchard works, and the firing of researchers who use this terminology in their work. Rather than treating this as an academic and scientific dispute, which can be resolved through those channels, it has been turned into an extremely polarized political issue.

Basically Moser's study if  confirmed means the trans-activist are dead wrong.  For any one of them to back down from the extreme positions they have taken on this matter would be the
hugest flip flop of the century! Flip flop is an understatement, Elfi Schlegel would have trouble describing the series of back saltos, twist, and layouts the activist would have to do. They have climbed way out on a limb, and Moser has sawed half way through it behind them.

(Edited after publication to correct the "knitting circle" sentence.)

REFERENCES:
  • Moser, C Autogynephilia in Women (2009)  Journal of Homosexuality in press.
  • Blanchard, R. (2005).  Early history of the concept of autogynephilia.  Archives of Sexual Behavior, 34(4), 439-446. 
  • Bailey J. M.  (2003)  "The Man Who Would be Queen".  Joseph Henry Press.  Women Who Once Were Boys (pre print text released on web)"

  • Comments

    First of all, the early history and concept of autogynephilia article by Blanchard is woefully inadequate.
    Secondly, there are questionaires which can determine if in fact if what is reported to a question is the same or not.
    Third, there is a world of difference between the arousal to the feminization itself (as we usually see in the writings of Lawrence and Arune including forced feminization, which is reminiscent of being forced to cross dress and the surgical process itself and its in between stages) and what we see in so-called autogynephilia described by transsexual women and non-transsexual women.

    Hfarmer's picture
    I am not sure but are we actually agreeing that trying to study so called autogynephilia in women is a bogus and dubious pursuit at best.  I.e. How can a female identified woman who is intrinsically feminine have a fantasy about feminizeation?  What significance can be attributed to a genetic woman, being aroused while dressed...like a woman... Which presumeably they are during their whole lives?  (Or for that matter, and this is a place where Blanchard's work is often misunderstood.  He ask these questions to "transsexuals" people who came into CAMH before they were full time, or even part time.)

    The thing to look for would have been women having fantasies about being men.  That would be the female equivalent of autogynephilia.

    Dear Hontas, I don't think we agree at all on this. You ask-
    "What significance can be attributed to a genetic woman, being aroused while dressed...like a woman... "
    There are women who engage in homeovestism. Louise Kaplan has detailed this in her book Female perversions.

    Yet for either men or women I don't see arousal to dressing in women's clothes as autogynephilia in and of itself. I see it as a seperate phenomenon of fetishistic transvestism.

    You also ask-
    "I.e. How can a female identified woman who is intrinsically feminine have a fantasy about feminizeation?"
    There are women who fantasize about thier breasts being injected to be bigger, not to use them with women or with men. There are women who seek labial reduction of the labia minora. It's not to attract a partner, but instead to heal a narcissistic injury. When they get aroused by the feminization PROCESS ITSELF, meaning the actual cutting, it is thought of as a perversion (the word with which paraphilia has become a euphemism for), This auto-arousal is thought of by some psychoanalysts to represent an arousal at an unconcious defense against castration anxiety. it is a descontruction of what they call "The Phallic Woman".
    OK. Now there are plenty of other cases where a woman gets aroused by the thought of being another woman,
    or of a woman who has attributes which she doesn't have...
    she gets turned on by pushing up her breasts and pretending that she is like a celebrity whom she admires, or she gets turned on by shaving her pubic region, because it makes her look more like an ex lesbian lover who she used to be jealous of....or because she is older and it makes her look like she did when she was younger.
    Some psychoanalysts would say that this is not pathological narcissism, but healthy narcissism and thus not a perversion (what is now called paraphilia).
    The same for transsexuals. There are some transsexuals whom get turned on by autocastration-the actual cutting, the actual in between stage. I would consider this paraphilic. There are others who get turned on by having their bodies forcibly feminized by someone. I would also consider this paraphilic. There are also transsexuals who have a phobia of any cutting on their genitalia. They would never get aroused by self-castrating themselves, or by wishing themselves to be forcibly feminized. They just wish to imagine (have the thought) that presto-their bodies are female and that they do not have to relate to either self or others with a male body. This doesn't mean they are getting turned on by the feminization itself.
    Like a non-transsexual woman who has been told "gee you are nice down there", and then later beleives herself at how nice she herself is down there, gets turned on by it, and incorporates it in to her healthy body image, if a transsexual woman imagines this because she doesn't have it yet and gets turned on by the imagining of it,
    it becomes incorporated (if only in fantasy until after she is adjusted and is now phenotypically female) in to her own healthy body image as a woman, I don't see this as paraphilic at all.

    Hfarmer's picture
    Off the top.

    No one ever said that wearing womens clothes is autogynephilia.  I have never said that it was automatically transvestic fetishim either.  It would be those things if it was accompanied by sexual fantasies about being a woman by a man. But a woman having a fantays wherein they are a woman is just a woman having a fantasy where she is who and what she is the way she is living.  There is a decided difference.  Just as a man cannot be an autoandrophile.  Understand?

    As for the term paraphillia being appleid to any kind of sexual kink or the other I too think that word has been used too readily to denigrate non standard sexual and gender behaviors.  In my opinion aside from sex that is with someone or something that cannot give consent (peadophilia, beastiality, necrophilia, etc) there are no real paraphilia's.  Why don't psychologist take a common sense definition like that? 

    While I see that you agree with the agenda promoted by Moser work in this case.  You have to admit that there are great questions still to be asked before one can really understand what Mosers data says.  IMO I htink the demonstration that autoandrophilia exist in women would be a real proof that one of Blanchard's assupmtions was wrong. Finding that women get turned on by a fantasy where they are say...a better looking version of themslves having passionate jungle sex with a hot guy...that's a no brainer.  To wich I say "no S___ Sherlock!"  :-)

    Dear Hontas,
    You wrote "Just as a man cannot be an autoandrophile. Understand?"

    I disagree with this. For instance, autoandrophilia has been noted in this report (and others). This is not a FTM. It is a typical male.

    Anatomic autoandrophilia in a male (2008) AA Lawrence (2008) Archives of Sexual Behavior
    (Abstract here)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19093196?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSys...

    You also wrote
    "Finding that women get turned on by a fantasy where they are say...a better looking version of themslves having passionate jungle sex with a hot guy...that's a no brainer. To wich I say "no S___ Sherlock!" :-)"

    That is not what I was describing. I was describing women who are NOT having a fantasy about having or preparing to have sex with a someone else.

    . Instead I was describing

    a) women who get excited by the idea of feminization ITSELF (eg., the actual cutting of their labia minora in reduction) for their own body image without any relation to others

    and

    b) women who get excited not by the feminization process (cutting), but by imagining a finished product of themselves as someone else (example getting turned on by their own their breasts after imagining that they are bigger or have another type of shape) without relation to others.

    Hfarmer's picture
    Interesting. I was unaware of that. My objection remains the same.  I don't think the same question can be asked of a male&female brain. A man aroused by say a fatasy where he gets more ladies due to having a larger penis. Would that be autoandrophilia? Would that be a man attracted to himself.

    Dear Hontas,
    You wrote
    "I don't think the same qustion can be asked of a male&female brain".

    What do you mean by this brain stuff?

    You wrote
    "A man aroused by say a fatasy where he gets more ladies due to having a larger penis. Would that be autoandrophilia? Would that be a man attracted to himself."

    I don't think that the man's fantasy needs to include getting more ladies due to having a larger penis or
    getting men due to having a larger penis. Don't you think that men just get off on the thought of having a bigger penis just for the sake of having a bigger penis itself? Don't you think that it raises their ego? Increases their body (phallic)image? Increases their sensual pleasure of being able to handle a bigger "handle" when self-handling it?
    Give them bigger excitement while imagining its bigger during auto-arousal?

    Hfarmer's picture
    Where do I get the brain stuff...  Contrary to popular belief transsexuals who do not find Blanchard's theory taboo and automatically objectionable do believe that what makes a transsexual lies in the brain.  The difference is that we also think that the brain is where sexual orientations lie.  Sexual orientations are just as hardwired as gender identities are.  There will be neurological and hence psycholgical differences between transsexuals of different orientations. 

    Now if you read closely the writings are transkids.us or the writings of Blanchard you will see that no real value judgement is made. It is never said that one transsexual type is better than or more real than the other.  In fact the people at TK.US seem to deny that any transsexual can be a "real" woman in any biological sense aside from behavior, and psychology/neurology.  (Ok so Blanchard has made some crass remarks in the past...but who hasn't about someone or the other?)

    Don't be so surprised by that.  Don't attribute to me things other people have said, and don't belive everything you read from Curtis Hinkle.  He's just angry that I called him out on his BS, that is plain to all who read all of the soruce matterials. I am sure some of his HBS freinds will react the same way. 

    Dear Hontas,
    You wrote- "Contrary to popular belief transsexuals who do not find Blanchard's theory taboo and automatically objectionable do believe that what makes a transsexual lies in the brain"

    Well to say it lies in the brain is obvious (it is not in the foot). But it doesn't say if got in the brain by social factors or hormonal factors. But some of the individuals who do not find Blanchard's theory taboo (Like Lawrence) suggest that for so-called autogynephilic transsexuals", it is in the brain but it doesn't exist as a feminine essence component, but instead as a paraphilia. Furthermore, in the Feminine Essence Theory article in ASB by Blanchard (2008), Blanchard definitely favors "homosexual transsexuals" over "autogynephilic transsexuals" in having a type of feminine essence component in the brain . The so-called "autogynephiles" to Blanchard and Lawrence are just heterosexual men (with a parpahilia in the brain), or as Lawrence stated "men trapped in men's bodies". In this regard, your discussion of the brain sex doesn't mean much to those who do not see this Blanchard & Lawrence slant to things. I do not beleive this slant which they propose. A better question is, why don't they proclaim the hypothesis of Hontas Farmer? I mean why don't they suggest that there is a feminine essence component which is the same in the brain of ALL transsexuals irregardless of sexual orientation PLUS seperate areas which specify sexual orientation?
    I myself believe that the transkids sites represent non-transsexual feminine homosexuals.
    In regards to Mr. Hinkle, I don't see what he has to do with our discussion of autogynephilia.

    Hfarmer's picture
    It's not either neurological by birth, or after birth, or psychological or sociological.  The brain is plastic some things are instincts and hardwired.  But as the cases of ferrile children show, much more behavior that we consider human (much less male or female) is learned.  Chances are that it is all at the same time, neurological, psycholgoical, and sociological all at the same time. 

    A different neurological substrate implies a different psychology (Consider the case of Autistic persons who are known to be neurologically different.)

    Different cultures and socioeconomic factors are known to influence gender expression (i.e. the classic Scots men in skirt's... I mean kilt's.)

    As for why my theory hasn't been procalimed etc etc...  First and formost I can't find an appropriate journal for it.  The Journal of Mathematical psychology apparently sent it for review by a transgender scientist, who was not a physicist themselves.  Their attempts at criticising the physics in the paper were obviously half baked and I showed the editor that they were wrong.  Furthermore the letter from the reviewer was 90%  a rail against how much they did not like Blanchard. My papers implication that their could be more than one kind of transsexual made them think it was just bakcing Blanchard or something.  (Indeed the mathematics of my theory indicated an infinity of different types of transsexual one for every transsexual person who could ever exist.)  In the end the editor choose not to publish it due to the prominence and anger of the transgender scientist in question.

    It does not matter because in the end Ivanka Savic did the research which as I thought it would showed just how the brains of gynephilic transsexuals were also partly feminized.  If they work they did on homosexual males is any indication so are the brains of androphilic transsexuals.  It works just they way I predicted it would and that I did this is recorded here on this blog.  Not many theoretical physicist my age have a top down theory proven right so quickly.  That is praise enough for me. 

    Dear Hontas, The Savic study doesn't add much clarification to this. For instance, her group in 2005 studied
    non-transsexual homosexual men and found a comparable hypothalamic activation in the NON-transsexual gay men as was as found in the 2007 study of so-called autogynephilic transsexuals. Furthermore In the 2005 and 2007 studies, the NON-transsexual gay men and so-called autogynephilic transsexuals respectively typed like heterosexual women. So If this hypothalamic activation is a marker for gender identity, then it is understandable that the so-called autogynephilic transsexuals type as do women. But if it is marker for gender identity, then why do the non-transsexual gay men type like women? You probably also know that in a study by Swaab on INAH3 in
    TRANSSEXUALS, that they typed as do heterosexual women and also as NON-transsexual gay men.
    Again, if INAH3 is a marker for sexual orientation in gay men, then why do the transsexuals (most of whom were "Blanchard autogynephiles") in this Swaab study type like heterosexuaol women and gay men?

    Hfarmer's picture
    That is because of what I described as "entanglement".  What you are observing there is called, in physics entanglement....and in psychology.... this kind of thing is called a "dissociation".  We know that gender behavior and sexual orientation are related somehow we really don't know how or why but they are.  They seem to reside in separate parts of the brain yet they act like they are connected.  You see what kind of thing I have been getting at now? 

    Did you notice that though they found generally similar activations that they also found some interesting differences between homosexual males and gynephilic transsexuals?  Look at the scans they provide in their papers.

    I don't know nothin about the details of neurology, my mathematical model can only tell me so much.  I can't tell you why that data says what it says, we have to ask god that question. :-)

    Dear Hontas, You wrote
    "They seem to reside in separate parts of the brain yet they act like they are connected. You see what kind of thing I have been getting at now?
    Did you notice that though they found generally similar activations that they also found some interesting differences between homosexual males and gynephilic transsexuals? Look at the scans they provide in their papers."

    Did they find some interesting differences between homosexual males and gynephilic transsexuals?????
    (Even if so,, the homosexual males were not gender dysphoric-they were non-transsexual gay men).

    Hfarmer's picture
    What do you think the difference between non-transsexual homosexual males, and androphilic transsexuals is?  I may just be a matter of how intensely femnized the brains were.

    Dear Hontas, Well I agree that it is related to the brain. But I don't think that androphilic transsexuals and non-transsexual gay men are on a continuum. In fact, I don't beleive the idea that androphilic transsexualism represents an "extreme form" of male homosexuality or a "type of" gay boy/man. I don't think that male homosexuality represents an alteration in the areas of the brain which govern gender identity. Therefore for non-transsexual gay men, I don't think that they are fminized in the areas of the brain which transsexuals (of any orientation) are feminized.

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