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By Morgan Giddings | January 12th 2009 09:54 PM | 27 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Morgan Giddings

I am Associate Professor of Microbiology & Immunology, Biomedical Engineering, and Computer Science at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Our lab focuses on an integrated, cross-disciplinary... Full Bio

A recent article in Discover Magazine was titled “A Universe Built For Us.”  The premise of the article is that the laws of the universe are exquisitely tuned for life - any small variations from the way things are, and life would not have been able to arise “Short of invoking a benevolent creator....”.  The article went on to explain that we live in a universe that seems apparently built for the creation and sustainment of life. 


This meme is not exclusive to Discover magazine - there is a fundamental problem in physics with the creation of life.  This is not the typical evolution-versus-creationism argument about the primordial soup and whether or not it was amenable to self-replicating molecules.  It is more fundamental - it is an argument about whether things like water or planets should even come to exist in a stable form.  The laws of the universe appear exquisitely tuned to provide the pre-conditions for the existence of a primordial soup in the first place.  Small variations of forces like gravity would lead to an entirely different universe - one unlikely to have developed life.


The creation of physical laws


The most widely-held physical theories about the creation of the universe posit that the basic physical laws we know came into existence in its first moments.  The view is that the universe started as a super-heated, dense blob, that cooled and expanded, and developed imperfections and asymmetries.  Those imperfections were “frozen” into the fledgling universe, resulting in physical laws like gravity, the speed of light, etc.


It is self evident that these imperfections laws led to life, since we exist.  If things were just slightly different, planets with water would never have formed, and, water itself would not have formed. Life as we know it would not exist.  This gives some pause because of the following logical problem: how is it that these laws happened to be amenable to the creation of life in our little corner of the Universe?  


The philosophy of positivism


Positivism is a widespread foundation for much of modern scientific belief.  The philosophy grounds itself in facts and observables, with Darwin’s Evolution being a notable derivation of this viewpoint.  Positivists don’t like mystical explanations for how the universe works, preferring instead to ground belief in testable experiment.


The positivist point of view has led to stunning progress in many material aspects of civilization, spanning biology, technology, and physics.  In the past two centuries, civilization has used this philosophy to progress from a mostly agrarian and superstitious lot, to a point at which tools like the internet exist. I am an adherent of positivism in my everyday scientific work.  Science cannot be done any other way - it is not a mystical process, it is a process that, at its core, must be grounded in some kind of testable theories or hypotheses.


But questions such as those raised by the Discover article - and by the more general debate over evolution versus creationism - are not so easily addressed by positivism.  There is a simple reason: time.  The great progress resultant from the scientific revolution has occurred mostly in sectors where we can directly test theories within some fraction of a human lifetime.  But, the longer the time span over which a process occurs, the harder it is to examine by this approach.  We are unable to falsifiably test theories of, for example, the evolution of an eyeball.  That is a process that might span many millions of years.  And, it is even harder to concretely test theories that span the creation of the Universe.  


It is not that positivism cannot yield any insights to these things, but insight that it does produce consists mostly of subtle clues, rather than in-your-face, indisputable facts.  A theory that “the earth is round” is very easy to test: one gets in an airplane and flies around until coming to the same spot one started.  But the creation of the Universe?  The evolution of humans?  Not so in-your-face, and definitely not so easy to test.


Perhaps that is why a quick internet search yields various creationist and “Intelligent Design” web sites that cite the Discover article.  They too noted the strange inconsistency between the positivist “anti-creator” point of view and the highly speculative, presently untestable multiverse theories presented.  If one is to step back in an attempt to be impartial, neither side has true high ground in that particular debate – excepting that the creationist side brings a lot more historical (and untestable) baggage with it.  But, the physics side carries baggage too - lots of it.  Maybe it is time to throw that baggage out the window and start afresh.


Positivism and the creation of the Universe


The Discover article represents positivism extended to the creation of the universe.  As such, it cannot help itself in being speculative, because there are few actual testable facts about what happened before (or what will happen after). The article discussed one particular theory, that in fact the universe is but one of a multiverse of 10500 different “trials.”  We happen to exist in one of the lucky few that was just right for life.  This is of course pure speculation - nobody can presently test whether 10500 other universes (or some fraction thereof) have existed.  But it is necessary to make such a wild hypothesis to avoid any mention of a “creator”.  Of course, even this doesn’t ultimately avoid a question of creation - since one can recursively regress into a question of what created the whole dice-rolling universe-creating process in the first place. 


Positivism doesn’t provide any more testable theories about the creation of the universe than does the “intelligent-design” rubric - at least in the near term.  One can make a nice computer simulation of a “multiverse” - but one could also make a nice computer simulation of an “intelligent-designer” (in fact, there are online games that do the latter).  Neither would prove anything, except that the respective theory is “possible”.  Unfortunately, I think people are so stuck in the religion-versus-science binary opposites mindset, that most consider it must be one or the other.  This is a stuck and dysfunctional paradigm, because it considers none of the space in-between.


Since there is no readily available way to test any speculative theory about universe creation, we have to fall back on philosophy.  A guiding principle that works in many situations is Occam’s razor.  


The edge of Occam’s Razor


Occam’s razor, according to Wikipedia, states “The explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.”  It is a powerful principle that has guided the work of many successful scientists.  But when it is brought to bear on the subject of creation of the universe (and life), many scientists appear to ignore the principle.  They come up with elaborate schemes that rely on complex scenarios, which are equally devoid of “proof” to the idea that there could be “a creator”.


Why is it that many scientists believe that the idea of a “creator” is incompatible with the science of the universe?  I was formerly in that camp, so I can speak to my own reasons.  Whenever the idea of “a creator” is raised, I picture what has been taught as part of most orthodox western religions: a guy with a beard wielding virtually unlimited power over time and space.  From a positivist perspective, this scenario is pretty hard to substantiate.  In other words, it is relatively falsifiable.  It is very hard to figure out how and why such a guy in a beard might come to exist, and why such a guy might wield such omnipotent power, and why such a person with such power would create such an imperfect universe.  And more importantly, it is hard to figure out why such a guy would allow so much suffering and atrocity in the world.  But more to the falsifiable part, there is little evidence of someone “intelligent” meddling in human affairs. As such, there are many flaws with the bearded guy scenario.  


So, because that scenario is so implausible, most scientific positivists just discount the whole “creator” idea.  I did for many years.  But that leaves one grasping, as Discover has done in this article, for alternative and equally difficult to comprehend scenarios.  Maybe we are throwing out the baby with the bath water in the desire to maintain the religion-versus-science division.  But again, there’s Occam’s razor, tickling at us, reminding us that we haven’t found a simple, explanatory (and perhaps testable) theory-of-everything.


The creative principle


What if we ignore the artificial binary of religion-v-science, and look at it a different way: not that there is a “creator,” but rather, a “creative force” or “creative principle?”  That rephrasing fits a positivist philosophy much more suitably.  We are far from understanding how the universe works, especially at vast time scales and distances.  Is it not possible that there is a creative force at work in the universe?  And that this “force” works very slowly, over time scales that are almost incomprehensible from a human point of view?  What if this force, or principle, was able to guide the initial formation of our universe to benefit life, and subsequently to cause life to form here (and if so, likely elsewhere)?  Is it so far-fetched that such a force could even be “intelligent” by some definitions?  It’s not like anyone can actually define intelligence, least of all the many brilliant minds who have been working on the artificial kind (AI) ever since computers were invented (and are not much further along in the quest than 30 years ago).  Whether the indefinable “intelligence” plays a role or not, clearly a lot of complexity has been “created” out of some pretty basic stuff.  Does pure randomness as an explanation really fit Occam’s razor, when it leads to conclusions like those in the Discover article? 


Nobody knows what happened before the Big Bang.  But one thing is certain: time as we know it did not exist.  I’ll explore time more in another post, but briefly, what we call “time” is derived from the process of decision making at the quantum level, that causes physical processes we experience to progress.  In a primordial universe, this kind of decision making was certainly not happening in the same way it does now.  In fact, it is clear that whatever came before was not bound by the same rules and principles that we hold near and dear. 


Since physics postulates that the laws we explore as scientists were formed as part of the expansion of the universe after the Big Bang, is it implausible to postulate that the process had a bias towards creating laws that might benefit the creative process we call life?  This would seemingly meet Occam’s razor better than multiverse theories or other scenarios that involve an endless random search.  The reason it better meets the Occam’s razor is because it makes no presumptions about complex processes that happened “before” - instead, it just posits a simple force or principle, which is perhaps testable given suitable tools.


Despite the tremendous advances of the past 200 years, there is a great deal we do not yet understand, about many things.  These are not just trivial things, but big things, like: why do we exist, how was the universe created, and what is consciousness.  Science proceeds on its way, generally avoiding those really deep questions because they do not readily submit to a reductionist or positivist approach - the primary approaches that combine to form modern science.  And they may not ever yield to an approach that extends from what we happen to observe in our little slice of the universe, since things may be quite different elsewhere or elsewhen.  We may not truly be able to figure these things out until/if/when we visit other parts of space and time. 


In the meantime, when speculating, we quickly run into bizarre conclusions of the current incarnation of positivism. Conclusions like the existence of 10500 universes. One of which just happened to produce chemicals.  And those happened to combine in the right ways to form RNA.  And then those happened to guide the formation of proteins.  Which then happened to lead to DNA synthesis.  And all of that which happened to synthesize nascent cell membranes, and etc... all the way to consciousness and human civilization.  It is not that positivism cannot explain these things - it may, given the right hypotheses and testing tools.  But many of its proponents seem so bent on avoiding a “creator” (acting at short-term time scales) that they don’t seem to consider the perhaps more compatible idea of “creative force” (acting at very long time scales). 


How would such a “force” act?  I will address that in more detail another time.  But suffice it to say, one of the great debates in physics has been, and still is, about “randomness.”  Randomness ultimately emanates from the quantum world - that decision making process about where and when a “particle” will interact with other “particles” (in quotes because all things are both particles and waves).  Nobody understands it.  It is the thing that led Einstein to posit “God does not play dice with the Universe.”  It is my own theory that if we get to the heart of this “randomness,” we may actually find something deeper than just simple dice-flipping - especially when looked at over very long time periods for a great many trials.


Finally, let me be clear: I am not advocating turning back science to simply accept a guy in sky scenario.  Instead, I am proposing that we, as scientists, should step back, and ask ourselves whether something fundamental is missing from our theories -  a principle, or a law, that, however subtle, has had significant ramifications on the formation of the Universe as we know it, and more specifically, life as we know it.  If the principle works slowly, over vast time scales, it would be hard for us to observe and test in the way that we do principles like gravity (to be explored in another post), which are immediately observable and testable.  But, just because something is difficult to observe and test, does not mean it should be ignored.



Addendum: In posting this article at ScientificBlogging, I was required to choose a topical Field to post it under.  I could find no suitable topic, and so ended with Physics (a choice, like any, likely to draw some flak).  To me, this strikes at the heart of the problem I explore above.  We have become very reductionist as modern scientists, so that most of us stick to our own narrow fields of interest, letting "experts" in other fields do all the thinking on their side of the fence.  However, solving problems like the creation of the Universe and life (or for that matter, understanding Systems Biology) may not admit to arbitrary, hemmed-in and fire-walled areas of expertise.  



Comments

Hank's picture
In posting this article at ScientificBlogging, I was required to choose a topical Field to post it under. I could find no suitable topic, and so ended with Physics (a choice, like any, likely to draw some flak). To me, this strikes at the heart of the problem I explore above.

Indeed, it's a terrific allegory for the language issue we all face.    What would seem like a philosophical issue to me is very much a physical one to you.  But it speaks to the nature of communication, in science and out.   Likewise, advancements you see as a result of positivism I can happily argue are a result of falsification.

I like your dislike of a binary method of thinking, though I have always assumed that most non biology scientists stayed out of the creation debate because it didn't much matter.    Evolution happens but how the universe and life was created - what force that was - is an issue for philosophy.   Science is about understanding nature and, in some cases, breaking her laws.    It only becomes a binary debate when a specifically religious view gets injected into a science class - then scientists mobilize.  

You also reference Einstein and dice.   Of course, that was a letter to Max Born and, as Don Howard puts it, 'Indeterminacy was but a symptom; entanglement was the underlying disease.'  Which is a pretty great way to close a comment too - you seem to have found a symptom but I look forward to your efforts to find the disease.

Steve Davis's picture
Great article, well presented.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
This doesn't really get at your main point, but I think it's important to note a distinction between cosmological theories and evolution  when it comes testability and evidence. There are two types of questions one could ask about the evolution of eyes, for example. How did our eyes evolve, a historical question that would be difficult to answer for the reasons you cited.

But another question is how can eyes evolve, and that is a question very much amenable to rigorous testing. We can study all of the various 'intermediate' eyes found in nature right now. The ones existing in nature now may, in the evolutionary future, turn out not to be intermediate to anything (simply because history takes a different direction), but the various forms of rudimentary eyes and photosensitive organs are exactly the kinds of structures we postulate were involved in the evolutionary history of the vertebrate eye. You can also go beyond the various eye structures found in nature and look at the genes behind them, and gain insight into how eyes can evolve.

In other words, we may not be able to retrace exactly a single historical event, but we can observe similar events in progress around us. In that sense, evolution is amenable to repeat observations. This is also true of the formation of planets and solar systems, etc. - astronomers can observe many planets and solar systems and learn about how these things form, even though we may not be able to figure just how our system formed.

When it comes to the formation of the universe, we obviously can't make those repeat observations. We can't observe various other universes and draw conclusions about our own. So in this sense, studying evolution and the origins of lif is very different from studying the origins of the universe.

Epicycles.

So, why must there be 10^500 other worlds? Our universe seems perfectly suited to us simply because it is the only universe we know. It could simply be an absolutely random fluctuation, and we are a result of the sets of laws that describe this universe. If the universe had been different, then 'we' might exist in radically different forms.

All I am saying is that any attempt to discern the "why" of the universe is begging the question. It is an anthropocentric view not unlike the geocentric model of the universe, and it assumes (however indirectly) that mankind is the *reason* for the existence of the universe. By Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is *not* that there is a first mover, or that there are (or have been) myriad other worlds, but that our world exists by random fluctuation, and there may be other universes with different physical properties.

The only reason people try to figure out why the universe is so perfectly suited to us is because they (perhaps unconsciously) have their causality backwards. We are perfectly suited to our corner of the universe because it is where we evolved.

morgan_giddings's picture
This doesn't really get at your main point, but I think it's important to note a distinction between 

cosmological theories and evolution  when it comes testability and evidence. There are two types 

of  questions one could ask about the evolution of eyes, for example. How didour eyes evolve, a 

historical q question that would be difficult to answer for the reasons you cited.


Hi Michael,
I agree that there is a distinction of degree between testability of the creation of the universe, and evolution of life.  It is true that evolution is more observable and testable because we can see some intermediate forms.  However, to me, "more testable" is not the same as "fully falsifiable" - which is why it is still such an area of debate between religious folks and scientists.  Using the eyeball example, there are several questions that could be raised, that are not readily falsifiable, such as:
1. Do the "photosensitive structures" that exist now represent the precursors to actual eyes?  One can claim yes or no, but there is no falsifiability in that claim, because none of us will be around to see whether an actual eye emerges, and if so, how.

2. Does the rate of evolution of things like eyes fit within a truly random model of mutation?  I am reluctant to wade into the debate about "directed evolution" because it is a hotbed.  Nonetheless, there are lots of clues - such as the very uneven distribution of polymorphisms across genomes - that it is not necessarily a purely random process.  


We do evolution every day in my lab, by growing Pseudomonas cultures that gain antibiotic tolerance.  We have very strong evidence that this adaptation can occur over very short time spans, and result in drastic changes in tolerance.  We are now undertaking next-gen sequencing to pinpoint those mutations.  But, once we have them in hand, the question is, is it falsifiable that these did or did not occur by pure chance?  


The logical difficulty is in teasing out effects of selection versus effects of mutation.  Selection is a readily testable  process in a lab experiment like this.  We can pick out a certain survivor and perhaps say something about why it was a better survivor.  


On the other hand, mutation does not so easily admit to testing.  In our own case, until we can do sequencing of the entire precursor population leading to a selected individual, we can say very little about what the space of mutations was that led to it.  I find the evolution debate lacking on this point, because the assumption is that it "must" be random, whether or not that belief is readily testable or falsifiable.  Even with all the modern instruments at our disposal, we cannot (yet) peer into the process to examine how the "mutation search algorithm" is executed.


And further, the "randomness" debate leads back to my original point.  Nobody really understands it.  As Hank pointed out, the "underlying disease" is quantum entanglement.  I.e. it is ultimately the source of all "randomness" we see.  But, despite tremendous advances in physics (e.g. my brother is a prominent string theorist), we do not understand entanglement - and hence we do not understand "randomness".  Evolutionary theory greatly depends upon "randomness," yet its proponents do not really understand what that is (leaving such understanding to physicists).  This is a hole in the theory that I see most evolutionary scientists avoiding.  And until this hole is filled, I think the religious folks will continue with their anti-evolution rants - and worse, they will continue to hold sway with a large segment of the public.  Rather than just trying to fill that hole with mysticism (the approach of most anti-evolutionists), I would prefer a more testable, scientific approach.  


The view that I will be promoting here is that we must understand the links between the quantum world, "randomness", and biology before we can truly get a firmer grasp on the mutation part of evolution (and a grasp on many other heretofore unexplained phenomena).


Fortunately, I'm not alone.  There is a small but growing group of people studying "Quantum Biology," i.e. the bridges between quantum phenomena and biology.  For example, about a year and a half ago, Science published a very intriguing paper showing that long-lasting (in a relative sense) quantum coherence was maintained during photosynthesis, and this was likely performing a "quantum computation" to optimize energy trapping and transfer. If biology is performing such computations at the molecular scale, this could have significant ramifications on what "randomness" means in terms of DNA mutation.  My own motto is that if biology has exploited such a phenomenon once, we are very likely to see it again, and again.   


Well, that's a pretty long comment.  I'll write more on this stuff in subsequent entries.

morgan_giddings's picture
So, why must there be 10^500 other worlds? Our universe seems perfectly suited to us simply because it is the only universe we know. It could simply be an absolutely random fluctuation, and we are a result of the sets of laws that describe this universe. If the universe had been different, then 'we' might exist in radically different forms.

It is true that the argument is anthropomorphic.  But the problem is the "randomness".  What is randomness and where does it come from?  And, more importantly, how did randomness happen to lead to us?  The point of all the hand wringing in pieces like the Discover article is that there are simply too many random variables that happened to have just the right values to lead to life (and us).  Fine you say, if they had different values, they would lead to a different form of life.


And if you say that, you support my point: why is it that life then has a tendency to emerge, regardless of the structure of the universe?  


In other words, since we know life exists, there are only two logical forms that this randomness argument can take:
1. The universe by chance found exactly the right set of conditions to promote a highly unique thing called life.  This random chance was on the order 1 in 10500.  We are really the lucky casino winners (or, there is a multiverse).


2. There are many "random" universes that would have led to life, and our existence isn't all that improbable because it would have happened in many of those universes.  But then, the question is, "why do the general laws/principles of the universe lead to self-organizing systems we call life?"  I.e., if life would have arisen regardless of the form that the universe took, then that admits there is some underlying organizational principle that readily leads to life.


Neither one of those is a complete argument.  The first lacks an explanation of why we did happen to exist in such an implausible scenario (hence the Discover piece).  And the second lacks an explanation for the principle that leads to life under many scenarios (hence my own response to the Discover piece).




You heighten the differences by presenting a dichotomy instead of a range. We cannot know how rare the universe is, because we cannot observe other universes. Therefore we may exist within one of trillions of universes, or we may be unique. From a single data point, we cannot extract a trend. Similarly, you cannot infer that life is rare simply because we only know that it exists in one universe, which may or may not be one of many.

I take a die out of my desk drawer. I roll a 2, a 4, a 3, 6, 2, 4, 2, 3, 2, 1, 6.
What is the probability that I have rolled that? One in 362,797,056? No, it's 100%. Why? Because it is already done.
Similarly, the probability of our universe exhibiting the physical laws we see is not 1 in 10^500. It is 100%.
Because it is what we can observe. It is a fait accompli.

I am not hostile to the concept of an organizing principle to the universe. I just do not think that one can use logic to support the existence of one.

"In a primordial universe, this kind of decision making was certainly not happening in the same way it does now. In fact, it is clear that whatever came before was not bound by the same rules and principles that we hold near and dear."

Why is this clear?

morgan_giddings's picture
"In a primordial universe, this kind of decision making was certainly not happening in the same way it does now. In fact, it is clear that whatever came before was not bound by the same rules and principles that we hold near and dear."



Why is this clear?



Maybe my use of clear is too strong.  I should have said "the best physical/physics theories to date".  In other words, if the postulate of some concentrated entity before the big bang is correct, that entity would have such high energy that the standard physical rules and laws we know would not apply.


morgan_giddings's picture
I take a die out of my desk drawer. I roll a 2, a 4, a 3, 6, 2, 4, 2, 3, 2, 1, 6.

What is the probability that I have rolled that? One in 362,797,056? No, it's 100%. Why? Because it is already done.

Similarly, the probability of our universe exhibiting the physical laws we see is not 1 in 10^500. It is 100%.

Because it is what we can observe. It is a fait accompli.


But, if you took a die out of your drawer, and rolled a 6 10^500 times (or something equally improbable), I'd start asking some pretty heavy questions about whether your die was indeed random.  We know that we were the "lucky" roll of the die.  That is not the question.  The question is what one can infer from that about what was "before" or the "precursor" to that die roll (if the analogy even applies).

It is like the classical problem that I use to teach my students about hidden Markov models.  If one is in a dishonest casino, and observes the following sequence
4 2 3 6 1 6 4 3 2, can one say anything about whether this came from a fair versus a loaded die?  Well, one can use a tool like an HMM to make probabilistic guesses about the most likely underlying state (which die was used).  So, if one sees a sequence like
6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6, and one knows that a loaded die might be in play, the HMM (and intuition) both say this most likely came from a loaded die, not a fair one.  That doesn't mean that the fair die could not have generated this number.  But it is not the best explanation for the data.

Likewise, if we observe that our universe is full of "improbables," that does not nullify the question of "what was the underlying state or states that led to the improbable die roll?"  The question remains.  What was the process that led to this seemingly improbable set of coincidences?  That is where I think logic and mathematics can play a role.

But we didn't roll all sixes (to extend the metaphor). We have a set of physical laws that seem improbable based upon the narrow conditions that could give rise to them, yes? But we cannot measure (and can barely concieve) of a universe in which these physical laws were significantly different. We do not know the size of the population of universes, and we do not know the conditions (including any external factors, if they exist) that gave rise to our sample set of one. Therefore the surfeit of 'improbables' are irrelevant to the discussion, because we have no concrete knowledge beyond our sample set of one.

If you want to believe in a creative force, this is a valid belief, and one that I personally share. But physics make a bad starting point, in my opinion, simply because we do not have examples of alternative physics from alternative universes, and wether or no alternative forms of 'life' exist. You are taking a belief (certainly a valid belief), and attempting to form logic around the belief, in untestable circumstance, all of which is hardly scientific (and yes, I understand that there is a long tradition of untestable 'thought experiments' in physics).

But it is a question for philosophy, not for science. In order to be a scientific question, you would have to have at least one control universe, where the laws of physics may differ, in order to test your belief. Perhaps one day we will be able to seed universes, and you will be able to develop testable hypotheses. After all, philosophy often develops into science. But until that time, I do not think you can seek logical proof of the existence of a creative force based on the laws of physics.

If I might suggest, perhaps a better entry point is molecular biology, where you have self-organizing molecules that have increased in complexity over the evolution of life, in seeming defiance of entropy as they encode more and more information. Here you could have controls, and form testable hypotheses over realitic timescales. And if you disprove the concept of entropy, then by definition that exhibits a bias towards order, ne?

morgan_giddings's picture
@Bob,I actually agree with you - it is philosophy, not science at present.  But, it was a reaction to the presentation of the Discover article as "science".

And I also agree with you that the way to study this is in evolution (and other testable areas). I am working on a book that will explore this in more detail, and I hope that leads to further in-lab work.



Gerhard Adam's picture

I suspect that part of the problem is that the universe isn't nearly as "random" as we think and that we often use this word to describe processes we simply don't understand at this point.

Interestingly there's little data to actually suggest that the universe is "random".  When we consider physics, there are fixed and finite rules governing how particles interact.  The forces involved are fixed, as are the particles.  While we may have dozens of particles identified, there are none that are simply "random" in the sense that an infinite set of possible combinations exist so therefore we have to allow for an infinite set of particles. 

Similarly we have a finite set of elements that have formed because of these laws, so our periodic table contains a fixed set of items which behave consistently with the atomic attributes they have.  These atomic interactions give rise to molecules which also follow "rules" that govern what can be created and how it exists.

In short, we have a firm set of physical principles that are anything but "random" in the way they actually function.  They may certainly appear random because we don't have all the information to know what initiated a particular interaction, but we can hardly assert that they must be.  Even the example of the dice isn't truly "random".  A die can fall on any of six sides, or it can be "fixed" to favor a particular number.  Therefore the rules are finite and cannot be truly considered random.  To those that would object to this statement, consider that when we use the word "random", are we referring to the die's behavior, or simply our perception of what the outcome might be?  If it is only the latter, then the behavior of the die isn't actually random, but merely difficult to predict.  I would also argue that the variability in the number that comes up is not "random" but chaotic since it is primarily dependent on the initial conditions of the toss.  If we could tightly control the means by which the die is tossed, then it wouldn't be surprising at all to have the same number come up repeatedly.


Using an imperfect analogy of traffic flow, when viewed from a height, much of the movement might appear random if one didn't understand the role (and rules) of traffic lights and allowed maneuvers (like right turn on red).  Similarly, while I drivers may all have an intended destination (and consequently purpose), this may also not necessarily be directly predictable because there may be other motivations (such as avoiding congestion, getting a cup of coffee first, etc.).  In other words, evaluating traffic flow would appear random if we didn't understand the rules governing it and the forces acting on the individual drivers to motivate their maneuvers.

The "butterfly effect" as mentioned by chaos theory connects seemingly unrelated events which could certainly appear as "random".  But we can begin to understand how important initial conditions are to the culmination of whatever phenomenon we are evaluating.

Another analogy that may serve is that of computer systems,which are based on a finite instruction set and some simple rules (protocols) for communicating and exchanging information.  It is ultimately these rules that give rise to many unique combinations of basic "particles" (i.e. instructions) and result in programs and complex networks.  Once again, there are many instances where behaviors may appear "random", but they are not considered because we understand that the underlying actions must all have a direct relationship to the basic elements, so we can search until we find it.

In the case of the universe, such basic elements are not discoverable because we can never know what came before.

The fundamental problem of a creator or "creative force" is that it is based on the existence of something which, by definition, hasn't been "created" yet.  Therefore for such a thing to exist, it would have to be completely outside of everything that has come to exist since the purported "moment of creation".  There could be no forces of physics, or particles because they don't exist prior to creation, so whatever is suggested to have initiated the process must exist completely outside the known universe.  If this were true, then the problem becomes how such an entity could interact with the universe, what "their" motivation might be, and the problem of how "they" came into existence and whether there are rules governing "their" existence (in other words an infinite string of "creators"). 



morgan_giddings's picture
Gerhard,All great points.

To your last statement,
The fundamental problem of a creator or "creative force" is that it is based on the existence of something which, by definition, hasn't been "created" yet.  Therefore for such a thing to exist, it would have to be completely outside of everything that has come to exist since the purported "moment of creation".  There could be no forces of physics, or particles because they don't exist prior to creation, so whatever is suggested to have initiated the process must exist completely outside the known universe.  If this were true, then the problem becomes how such an entity could interact with the universe, what "their" motivation might be, and the problem of how "they" came into existence and whether there are rules governing "their" existence (in other words an infinite string of "creators"). 

Well, "something" existed before the universe - either that, or something came from nothing, which is equally hard to fathom.  If the former is true, then that "something" did obey certain rules/laws, just not the physical rules/laws we are all familiar with.


Personally (again getting into philosophy), I believe something akin to Plato's "forms": that things like logic/math existed before, and exist now, outside our physical universe.  That those emanate from something much deeper and longer lasting.  And, that one aspect of this "logic" that exists is a creative "principle".  To what end, I do not know, but it seems to be a drive to counter entropy/heat death of the physical universe.  Fortunately, black holes might be the ticket out of that conundrum (I would argue that a black hole can actually accrue negative entropy, though I'm sure that will spur debate).


One other thing I'll say - I think our universe is much deeper than the observable, physical part.  Fortunately, the whole issue of "Dark matter" backs me up on that.  Nobody knows what it is.  I think that what we see and experience is only a tiny slice of the actual universe as it exists, and that all that "dark matter" is just the stuff that we cannot see or interact with, because our tools are not sufficiently advanced.




Gerhard Adam's picture
"Well, "something" existed before the universe - either that, or something came from nothing, which is equally hard to fathom.  If the former is true, then that "something" did obey certain rules/laws, just not the physical rules/laws we are all familiar with."

Well this is definitely well in the speculative and philosophical area, but something else to consider;  let's suppose that physics is completely correct in asserting that matter/energy can be neither created or destroyed.

With this simple concept we can avoid the whole issue of "before" or "after" because these terms imply a beginning and therefore a creation event.  Anytime we assume a starting point, we are stuck with what came before.

Now by saying that there is no beginning, we go into the uncomfortable realm of the infinite, but at some point we have to anyway.  If we use mathematics as a logical base, we encounter infinities in the simplest forms.  Any two points on a number line are populated by an infinity of values.   Given the propensity for turning up infinite values in so many places, might it not be reasonable to assume that the universe is also infinite, and that what we perceive as a beginning is really just a change in a "pattern" of interactions?  For example, while we think of a life beginning, in truth, it is really a change in the existing pattern of particle arrangements, since no matter/energy was created, it was simply rearranged.

I'm won't pretend that I have the slightest insight into how this would work, or even what it means.  My point is that we can't introduce new laws of physics or "rules" beyond those that have already been established as functional.  Therefore when it comes to the origins of the universe, we can't introduce new laws or rules to explain it's existence or function.   I personally suspect that some of the "weirdness" encountered in quantum physics actually does explain the underlying principles of how the universe behaves, but as yet we have no way of equating these workings to the nature of the universe at large.

I realize that the concept of "infinity" isn't really undertstandable, but might we not be on the same kind of path that we encountered in mathematical history when we concluded that some numbers were rational while others were not, or imaginary, etc.  Perhaps mathematics is truly showing us how the world works, and regardless of how difficult it may be to imagine or intuit, that it really is indicative of the underlying reality we all live in.

Ilya Prigogine established that self organisation toward complexity is a natural tendency that arise from thermodynamical irreversible processus. I think it is the "Creative force" thay you are talking about.

briantaylor's picture

A great discussion on a fine essay.
You are all waaaaaaay more educated than I, but...
I'll throw my two bits in:


The uniqueness of our universe is at least definable inside the boundaries of the Cosmological Constant.

I see the universe as a machine. Big bang, leads to everything, expanding. Everything moves forward in time and outward from origin subject to the four physical laws of existence. Entropy is exemplified in the breakdown of at least one of the laws, chain reaction, matter becomes impossible, space and time become irrelevant. Everything is ripped apart at the smallest level imaginable, outside in to origin. Big Crunch. Repeat.

Who or what set it in motion, at this moment in our understanding is not a question for science.

I don't believe that it is impossible for us to ever find the solution through science. I think we are extremely young. There is every reason to try, in all disciplines.

As for "creative force," I say, why not? But really, as it is equally mysterious and unfathomable (at this point) is there any difference between "it" and "God?"


Cheers!



Gerhard Adam's picture
As for "creative force," I say, why not? But really, as it is equally mysterious and unfathomable (at this point) is there any difference between "it" and "God?"

Actually there is.  People tend to overlook the fact that concepts of God come with a great deal of additional baggage beyond simply a "creative" force.  There's the issue of angels (which creates the problem of having a whole other universe that is populated with beings that, by definition, can not be anything of this world).  We also have Satan (who is supposedly a rebellious/fallen angel).  Then we have the spirits of the dead (i.e. souls). 

So, in my view, it very much matters whether we're simply talking about an "it" versus a "God".

briantaylor's picture
Point taken Gerhard.
But my point was that because creative force and God are mysterious and unfathomable there can be no difference.
How can we compare and contrast speculations to any true conclusions?
Respectfully,


Gerhard Adam's picture

You're right that no absolutely conclusions can be drawn, and a personal belief doesn't have to be logical, scientific, or necessarily rational.  It only has to work in allowing an individual to cope with life as they perceive it.

However, when it comes to more scientific principles, then the issue of introducing God becomes more problematic, because often it is assumed that all the presumptions that accompany such a proclamation are beyond reproach and therefore require no explantion.  This position is then used to throw into question gaps in scientific knowledge without acknowledging that the premise that it is originating from is even more fantastic.


I agree with your statement that a creative force and God are both "mysterious and unfathomable", but that may be because there isn't any such thing in either case.  I suspect that often we are looking for a more exotic explanation for phenomenon that doesn't really require any.  Water freezes because of the molecular behavior at a certain temperature.  I don't need to invent a "freezing force" that exerts some mystical influence on water.


Also note, I'm not suggesting that you are asserting any of these things, but thought I'd just clarify what I was getting at.



morgan_giddings's picture
Point taken Gerhard. 

But my point was that because creative force and God are mysterious and unfathomable there can be no difference.

How can we compare and contrast speculations to any true conclusions?

Respectfully,


Sorry for my delayed response...


I advocate that the "creative force" is not unfathomable, just subtle.  That we have to dig into the interface between quantum mechanics and biology, to seek out how the two interact to create the "randomness" that generates genetic mutations, for example.  And that if we do this carefully enough, we should be able to find falsifiable evidence of whether such a "creative force" (I like principle better) is at play.

The application of Darwin's theory of natural selection to the entire evolution of life, where the changes occur randomly, appears to be much risky. For many billions of years that may have passed since the appearance of life on earth, I do not think there is enough time to explain the complexity of living beings and their social structures based on purely random DNA's mutations. Instead, the work of Ilya Prigogine, Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1977, on systems who are away from thermodynamic equilibrium that led to self-organized dissipative structures, allows to believe that the complexity of these systems is a property of nature in the sense that is not the result of a chance where all possible changes have the same probability (mechanistic position), but is the result of a natural tendency oriented to order, where the feasibility of the changes suffered is validated by natural selection. In the Prigogine's self-organization point of vue, changes in DNA that have led the evolution of life would not be due to "random errors of replication", but due to the natural tendency toward complexity of dissipative structures (all living beings are), combinated with natural selection. 
I am surprised at the lack of dissemination of these Prigogine ideas. Perhaps it is due to the fact that mechanical neodarwinisme has became a kind of scientific religion.


Hank's picture
It's the second time today that I have seen it implied that anyone claims natural selection is the sole mechanism of evolutionary change (supposedly according to biologists) but we have some 25,000 articles here and even I don't know how many are on evolution - probably a lot - yet I have never seen such a thing written.   When someone this decade throws "neo-" in front of a word I have begun to suspect a cultural or ideological agenda because, to-date, one hundred percent of the time that has been the case.

I am not even the 500th smartest guy here but I can easily find plenty of examples of non-selective mechanisms of evolutionary change.    

Do you have a link to the Prigogine paper you reference?  (If he got the Nobel in '77 all his work may not be on the internet yet, but it's catching up)

Gerhard Adam's picture

I don't think there's any disagreement that "purely random" processes are not at work, as I mentioned in an earlier post.  I also don't think anyone is disputing the concepts associated with self-organization and many other ideas (including Prigogine's). 


However, I suspect that many of these ideas have not been been fully vetted because, especially in biological systems, the risk of reductionism rather than self-organization as intended by physics may be a problem if it is applied too freely.


 



I do not
want to get away from me the question that, supposedly, we are dealing with: I
would stress I believe that Morgan Hidding’s Creative Principle is the natural
tendency to order and complexity of dissipative structures that are far from
the thermodynamic equilibrium and develop irreversible processes. To me, the
"Creative Principle" is a law of nature studied in Thermodynamics of
irreversible processes. Prigogine has published several books on the subject.


morgan_giddings's picture
Jordi,Thanks for the input.  Though I am in general aware of Prigogine's work, it has been many years and is a vague memory.


From what I do remember, though my proposal may sound "similar" on the surface, it is not the same.  I am specifically talking about a creative process that produces bias in supposed "randomness," emanating from the quantum decision making process as quanta undergo the transition from wave-nature to particle-nature.  This process is not understood.  While it has been implied in phenomena such as consciousness (Penrose and Hameroff) and photosynthesis (the Science article I cited above), there is no unified theory for what is going on or how it works.  I have some extensive theories about that that I will be sharing further here, and formulating into a book as well.  These theories might not only explain phenomena like "randomness" in evolution, but many other things, including gravity. We'll see.  I hope to take some time off from my busy academic career to get down to serious writing soon, otherwise the ideas will be written down at a snail's pace.


logicman's picture
Morgan: I have only just come across this blog, whilst idly browsing and seeking inspiration for my own writings.  I am inspired by what you have written, and the comments.

Here is my response:
Where I am coming from with my arguments: I program text analysis of books written in various languages in an endeavour to simulate language acquisition. I have a lifetime's study of linguistics, philosophy and related fields behind me, and I continue to study.  I am currently blogging about the nature of language, intelligence, time and related matters.  I support the claim that a computer could eventually be programmed to use language in exactly the way that we humans do.  I contend that not only will a computer pass the Turing test, but to be mistaken for a human it will, more importantly be capable of judging a Turing test.

I am first and formost a pragmatist.  Truth is whatever gets the best real world results at the least intellectual cost.  It is the reverse to Occams obverse of the coin of the realm of knowledge.  It is the engineers cent as against the orators dollar.

Please do not take anything that follows personally.  :)

You write:
Nobody knows what happened before the Big Bang.  But one thing is
certain: time as we know it did not exist.  I’ll explore time more in
another post, but briefly, what we call “time” is derived from the
process of decision making at the quantum level, that causes physical
processes we experience to progress.  In a primordial universe, this
kind of decision making was certainly not happening in the same way it
does now.  In fact, it is clear that whatever came before was not bound
by the same rules and principles that we hold near and dear.

Do we even know if there ever was a big bang?  The aftermath of a 3-dimensional implosion, as of a CRT, looks just like an explosion and there is no intermediate zero state, the bits tend mostly to pass each other in a central zone rather than collide.  Galaxies can pass through each other with no two stars colliding.

Given: there is currently no accurate solution to the n-body problem, as far as I am aware.
It follows: we cannot plot the trajectories of billions of galaxies and star clusters with any degree of accuracy.
To plot the billions of trajectories accurately would surely require an n-body solution with time treated as existing in two dimensions - one for ordinary vectors and another for observational delay vectors  - to allow for the fact that every single entity we observe in the entire universe is not at any given moment of observation where we electromagnetically observe it. Even when you look at the moon, you are seeing it where it was approx 2.5 seconds ago. I submit that, even if we had the equations, no current computer could accurately plot the sufficiently necessary vectors to prove that even any two given stars commenced their journey through the universe from even a common region at the scale of our galaxy.

"one thing is certain: time as we know it did not exist" -

I strongly dispute that: If time turns out to be a brain's way of making sense of its inputs then time as we think we know it never did exist.

what we call “time” is derived from the
process of decision making at the quantum level, that causes physical
processes we experience to progress.

You present that as a statement of fact.  Do we make decisions at the quantum level?  Where is the evidence?  Given the peculiarity of quantum theory, together with the phenomenal amount of computing power that would be required to compute any model of a human-like decision making process as a sum of quantum effects, the idea that the human brain functions essentially at the quantum level must remain purely conjectural. 

The Occam-pragmatism conjecture: My computer makes decisions at the electron level, and apparently so do neurons, through electrical levels of activity mediated by molecules / ions at the synaptic level.  If the synaptic exchanges at the ion level are due to quantum effects then one may as well postulate a quantum effect as causing the operation of a voltaic cell.  The DC electric motor cares not if the voltage is accurate to two decimal places or to a Plank unit - it just rotates one way or the other as a three state device. At an even more fundamental level, a computing device made in an entirely mechanical fashion from solid materials can make decisions.  Pneumatic and hydraulic decision-making control devices are widely used in the engineering industries.  The difference between a pneumatic computer, a silicon CPU and a living brain is essentially a matter only of complexity and scale.

it is clear that whatever came before [the Big Bang]was not bound
by the same rules and principles that we hold near and dear.

If the Big Bang model is valid, which I doubt, then it is impossible to know whether or not anything at all  came before it.  Given that theorists assume that there was an origin of time as an effect of the Big Bang, it follows that there can be no 'before' to discuss, since 'before' is an aspect of knowledge which we can only intuit if we intuit time.  Philosophically speaking, one may as well discuss a creative principle.

Which conclusion links back to what you were discussing here in your blog.

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