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By Tommaso Dorigo | July 17th 2009 04:41 PM | 21 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Tommaso Dorigo

I am an experimental particle physicist working with the CMS experiment at CERN and the CDF experiment at Fermilab. In my spare time I play chess, abuse the piano, and aim my dobson telescope at... Full Bio

Yesterday I posted a short article whose main purpose was to show a figure I had received from Sven Heinemeyer, a phenomenologist who specializes in the study of Minimal Supersymmetric extensions of the Standard Model (MSSM).

Besides predicting a mirror copy of Standard Model (SM) particles, MSSM models are characterized by containing not just one, but five distinct Higgs bosons; over much of the space of possible parameters of these theories, one of the five Higgs bosons is quite similar to the one and only SM Higgs, so that one can discuss the SM Higgs and the lightest neutral scalar of the MSSM together without generating confusion.

Sven, who is a friend, is kind enough to periodically produce updated plots of the impact of the measured top quark and W boson masses on the unknown mass of the (lightest) Higgs boson. And he does it exactly the way I like -no frills, no extraneous information (such as indirect results on the W mass, which make the plot too crowded while adding information which most of us is willing to ignore), no individual measurements but actual world averages, and no silly projections to what a "giga-Z" or a "SLHC" promises to provide in terms of precision on the top quark and the W boson masses. And I pay him back as I can -by posting them here.

So allow me to show the plot again, because I am going to spend some time discussing it in detail below.


I of course realize that I am guilty of letting some of you down: space limitations force me to defer to the next article the nuts and bolts behind the inter-relation of top, W, and Higgs masses, which generates the upward parabolic curves of W mass versus top mass that you can see in the red region, each corresponding to a well-defined Higgs boson mass. Here you need to let me get away with just the following note on the plot: within the SM, a perfect knowledge of top and W masses would indicate the exact value of the Higgs boson mass, while more data -knowledge of the masses of SUSY particles, for instance- would be needed to get the same information in case of a MSSM Higgs.

Once we agree on that point, we can discuss in some detail what this particular version of Sven's series of "Mw-Mt" plots mean. As the most up-to-date of you have probably already noticed yesterday, in fact, the blue ellipse describing the present status of our knowledge of top and W masses looks really funny. What is the business with a top mass well below 170 GeV ? The Tevatron average says that the top mass is 173.1+-1.3 GeV...

Care with the Top pole mass

As I quickly mentioned yesterday, the top quark is not entitled to have a perfectly well-defined pole mass. Here is why.

The propagation of an elementary particle is expressed in quantum field theory by a "propagator" -duh-, a function of the particle's four-momentum, which has a pole (a value where it becomes infinite) for a specific value of four-momentum squared. The real part of the pole is what is called the particle's "pole mass".

While the above definition is exact for non-strongly-interacting particles which approximate the notion of a stable, "asymptotic" state, for heavy quarks -even "stable" ones- it is not so, because non-perturbative quantum chromodynamical processes affect the mass and make it ambiguous by an amount proportional to the energy scale of non-perturbative QCD effects, or . 200 MeV, give or take a few.

Now, the top quark is often thought to be "free from quantum chromodynamical (QCD) effects" despite being a coloured object (thus a source of QCD colour field, and so in principle all but decoupled from that interaction). The reason of that misconception is that physicists like to approximate, and they claim that since the top quark has a lifetime ten times shorter than the typical time scale at which QCD interactions act, there follows that the top quark is effectively "free", and that it can therefore be treated as if it were an asymptotic state.

A quite instructive 1997 paper by M. Smith and S. Willenbrock explains that while it is true that the top quark usually decays without having the time to radiate soft gluons or dress up in a colorless meson ("the top quark does not hadronize"), it is erroneous to believe that what we measure by reconstructing the energy of its bona-fide decay products is the true pole mass.

To use Smith and Willenbrock's words,

"Such a short lifetime means that the top quark decays before it has time to hadronize. The large top-quark width can act as an infrared cutoff in the calculation of physical quantities, insulating the top quark from the effects of nonperturbative QCD."

"Motivated by these facts, we ask whether the top quark pole mass is free of the ambiguities associated with nonperturbative QCD. The purpose of this article is to demonstrate that this is not the case."


The point that the authors of the 1997 paper make is that while the top quark, taken alone, does produce exactly just a b-quark and a W boson, and that both those particles can be measured with good precision and no ambiguity in a collider detector, the picture is incomplete. The correct diagram to draw is not the simple one shown on the left in the figure below, but the much more complex one shown on the right.



In the graph labeled "(b)" you see why the top quark can never be "taken alone": it is always color-connected by a coloured line passing through the b-quark and the other quarks participating in the b hadronization, with another quark produced somewhere else by the collision, and perfectly oblivious of the kinematics of top decay. This fact manifests itself in the uncertain energy of the b-quark jet, because the jet of colourless hadrons produced by the b-quark hadronization forcefully contains a quark which is coming not from the top quark, but from some other player in the interaction. This in turn leads to a uncertainty in the measured top mass, when one computes it using the kinematics of the W boson and the b-quark jet that the top quark has decayed into.

To summarize, there is an ambiguity, which is in fact of the order of . This prevents us from claiming that by reconstructing the W-b invariant mass we are measuring exactly the top pole mass.


The running top mass


There is another definition of the top quark mass of which I wish to make you aware, in case you are not. This is the "running" mass -a mass whose value changes with the particle's energy. I will try to explain what that means in simple terms below.

Heavy quarks are studied by producing them in high-energy particle collisions. At such energies, the strong force is considerably weaker than at low energy: that is because we are probing these quarks at a shorter distance (since collision energy can be pictured as the inverse of the probe's wavelength), and by doing that we are overcoming part of the "anti-screening effect" of the colour field around the quark. Anti-screening arises because a colour charge polarizes the medium around itself, effectively becoming surrounded by virtual gluons. Gluons are themselves sources of the colour field, such that from a distance, one sees a larger colour charge than that of the actual source! If one uses a high-energy probe and wades inside the forest of virtual gluons, however, the effective colour charge one sees from the source is smaller. That is precisely the reason for the dependence of the strength of QCD interactions with the energy at which those interactions act.

Ok, so we have a "running" strong coupling constant. Its exact dependence on the energy of the interaction contains a free parameter, which is called "renormalization scale". In short, this is a cut-off for the calculation of divergent integrals in some of the virtual diagrams contributing to the strength of the interaction. The renormalization scale of a process is a quantity that affects all theoretical calculations of quantities that can be measured in that process.

Now, theorists have found out that re-defining the mass of heavy quarks in a way that makes them dependent on the renormalization scale, their perturbative calculations of processes involving these quarks become less uncertain and better defined. So they use a value of the top mass which depends on the energy scale at which the process is studied, and they talk about "short-distance masses".

For all practical purposes, experimentalists need not bother about these details: they just need from theorists a prediction for the value of observable quantities, and observable quantities are of course independent on the choice of the renormalization scale or other parameters. So, as an experimentalist, I am actually happy to not have to mess with the running top quark mass; however, when the running top quark mass is the means through which a better measurement of the top pole mass can be obtained, I become all ears.


The study in hep-ph/0906.5273


After the long babble above, which had the purpose of making a clumsy attempt at defining what is meant by "top pole mass" and "running top mass", I can get closer to explaining what is the input to Sven's plot above.

A couple of weeks ago U.Langenfeld, S.Moch, and P.Uwer have produced an important study which shows how, from the measured cross-section of top pair production at the Tevatron, a value of the running top quark mass can be obtained.

Today, as I was reading the work of Langenfeld et al. to report about it here, it occurred to me that if I did I would be really getting closer to speaking about things I do not understand well than I feel comfortable with: after all, the paper in question is extremely technical (check the snapshot on the right if you do not believe me)! So I decided to ask Sven if he would offer the authors of that study to do it in my place, in a guest post. Pending an answer (hopefully positive) to my request, I will just summarize the result of their study in the remainder of this article. I think this is fair, given the already biblical length that it has reached.

A dependence of the cross section for top production on the top mass is not anything new: we know that the heavier an elementary particle is, the harder it is to produce it in a hadron collision, and we also know the main reason for it: the decreasing probability of finding quarks with suitable energy to give rise to that reaction inside the colliding hadrons. These are the so-called "parton distribution functions", which should not be unfamiliar to anybody who has read this blog for long enough.

There exist several precise calculations of the top pair production cross section at the Tevatron. In hep-ph/0906.5273, however, the authors have computed the cross section including some specific terms which depend on the factorization and renormalization scale more accurately than in the past, to an accuracy called "next-to-next-to-leading order" (NNLO). The inclusion of precise scale-dependent terms allowed them to make use of the measured cross-section of top quark pair production to determine the value of the running top mass, and from it, to arrive at a new determination of the top pole mass (which can be easily obtained from the running mass): this is nearly orthogonal information to what the Tevatron has produced on the top mass so far, because the top quark mass measurements by CDF and DZERO use the final state of top quark decay, rather than the production phase of top pairs!

Moreover, the new work allowed the authors to find out that the residual theoretical uncertainties on the running top mass are quite small, and that a 10% uncertainty in the pair production cross section available from the CDF and DZERO production rate measurements converts to a quite appealing 2% uncertainty on the running top mass. For example, the figure on the left shows how the computed  top pair production cross-section varies as a function of the choice of renormalization and factorization scales, when the cross section is evaluated by using leading-order approximation (in red), next-to-leading order approximations (in green), and NNLO approximations (in blue). The rectangles on the left span the cross section uncertainty at LO, NLO, and NNLO. At NNLO, there is almost no more dependence on the ratio of scales! This is a very appealing result: perturbative expansions performed with a grain of salt may cancel part of the scale dependence in the results.

The figure on the right, also taken from the paper by Langenfeld et al., shows the dependence of (almost-exact) NNLO top pair production cross-section on the running top mass. The experimental determination on the cross section is shown by the two horizontal lines at 7.2 and 9.1 picobarns: they hit the functional form extracted at NNLO by the authors at specific mass values, which bracket the new running mass measurement: the result found is , which translates in a top pole mass of 168.2 +-3.6 GeV.

So that, finally, is what really enters in the plot I posted at the top of this post: the 168.2 GeV top pole mass extracted from Tevatron cross section measurements. If you go back to the top of this article, you can see that the blue ellipse is quite wider than earlier issues of the same figure (see here for the one produced in March this year): that is because the direct determinations of the top pole mass at the Tevatron have by now a 0.7% total uncertainty; also, the top mass value found by using the top cross section turns out to be significantly lower, although compatible within error bars.

The above is significant, new information, which of course is bound to arise the interest of Supersymmetry fans: in fact, as the top quark mass becomes lower, the Higgs boson mass predicted by the Standard Model theory also decreases, reaching down further in the region where the LEP II experiments have already excluded its existence.


Appendix: Some additional notes about the MW-MT plot


Besides the location and size of the blue ellipse, there are a dozen of additional questions that an inspection of the new MW-MT figure causes. Let me list them in random order as an add-on to the above article. If your favourite question is not in the list below, please use the comments box below and shoot.

1) What exactly does the blue ellipse mean ? Is it a 1-sigma interval in both mass measurements ? It looks wider than that...

The ellipse is centered on the world average W boson mass, and on the top quark pole mass as estimated from the running mass, as I have described above. The horizontal and vertical extensions of the ellipse do not correspond to 1-sigma variations: they are made in a way that the ellipse encompasses an area which has globally a 68% chance of containing the real value of those two quantities, given the experimental uncertainties on the measured values. To capture 68% of a two-dimensional Gaussian distribution you have to extend in each direction to more than one standard deviation, because one standard deviation would mean taking all the possible values of one of the two values, if the other lays between -1 and +1 sigma.

2) Why do the green and red areas overlap only marginally ? Does that mean that MSSM and SM can be distinguished by the observed mass of the lightest neutral Higgs boson ?

Both the Standard Model and Supersymmetry theories may live with a lightest neutral scalar particle just above the LEP II bound of 114.4 GeV. However, if the Higgs is much heavier -say above 135 GeV- SUSY becomes inconsistent, while the SM is still good. In that sense, excluding a neutral Higgs boson below 135 GeV will put in a significant embarassment all SUSY phenomenologists, including Sven :)

3) I understand that the red area encompasses possible solutions within the Standard Model of particle physics, still not ruled out by experimental searches, and that they correspond to different masses of the Higgs boson, which varies from light to heavy as we get farther from the top boundary of the area. But what exactly is the meaning of the green area instead ? Is that a function of the Higgs mass too ?

The plot is in truth slightly deceiving, but it has become customary to summarize in it two concurrent theories in two different ways: one model -the SM- is shown as a function of the Higgs mass, and another class of models together -the many MSSM alternatives- as a (loose) function of the supersymmetric particle masses. As you move down from the upper boundary of the green area you are hypothesizing larger and larger SUSY particle masses, but this does not correspond to a clear variation of the Higgs boson mass. In fact, all MSSM models require the lightest neutral Higgs boson to have a mass smaller than about 135 GeV: above that value, the theories are inconsistent; no combination of the many parameters of supersymmetry is capable of enabling the lightest Higgs boson to be heavier than that. So much so, that theorists have invented a ad-hoc scenario, the so-called Mh-max one, to see just how much breathing air SUSY had once the LEP II experiments started excluding Higgs masses above the Z mass.

4) When will the W boson and top quark mass be measured with an accuracy sufficient to measure the Higgs boson mass to an accuracy of a few tens of GeV ? Which of the two masses is more important in this respect ?

The dependence of the Higgs mass on the top and W masses is only logarithmic, as I plan to demonstrate in detail in the next post. The exact functional dependence implies that one needs to measure accurately both W and top masses to have some information on the Higgs. Now, while the W mass has been measured with a precision exceeding a part per two thousand, the top mass is only known within seven parts in a thousand. This does not mean that we must stop measuring the W mass and concentrate on the top mass, however: quite the opposite! In truth, the top mass has by now almost stopped delivering further constraint on the Higgs mass from the formula describing their interplay, as soon as we reached a 1% accuracy. The W mass is now all that matters. This is actually evident if you examine the plot more closely: the curves describing different values of the Higgs mass in the red area are almost horizontal, which means that by increasing the precision of the top mass one does not gain anything. It is only by narrowing the band of allowed W masses that one constrains the Higgs nowadays. So, cheer up: the CDF experiment is about to release a new W mass measurement, which will be the best in the world, and provide a total uncertainty on the W mass probably smaller than a part in four thousands!

Comments

lumidek's picture
If the total prior probabilities of SM and MSSM are taken to be equal (which is fair!), then the graph above statistically implies that the MSSM is roughly 13 times more likely than the SM a posteriori. See
http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/07/top-quarks-and-w-bosons-mssm-is-13.html




dorigo's picture
Lubos, we discussed this some other time, and I disagree with your use of the data in the plot. The green area is all very unlikely, because it ignores the fact that a Higgs with a mass lighter than 114 GeV is strictly impossible - LEP II just can't have missed it. You have a zillion of different models plotted there together. They are covering the green area on their tiptoes, breathing mouth-up and almost fully immersed in water. On the other side you have a continuous range of higgs masses all possible for the SM. It is true that the running top mass being this low will tighten the global fits and make the 1-sigma disagreement between best-fit of the Higgs and LEP II limit a bit worse; but this means little for MSSM.

Cheers,
T.


lumidek's picture
Dear Tommaso, so try to present a better calculation than mine.
The green region is 28 times more likely than the red one a priori, and 13 times more likely when it is adjusted for the fact that it is 2.2 times thicker. 

Otherwise, the Higgs mass in the green region is between 114 GeV and 130 GeV and virtually all of it is unexcluded by LEP. When you talk about exclusion by LEP and other experiments than this one, SM has actually much bigger part of its possible of range of Higgs masses excluded than the MSSM does!

You're just using every single of these arguments incorrectly, asymmetrically in a very unbalanced way. The only reason why you're saying things like one above is that your low prior for SUSY is so low that it beats - in your mind - any rational argument and any calculation. I call people with such unequal priors "bigots".

I think that your discourse about these things is very similar to people like Nigel Cook - and believe me that you should prefer to be compared to a stinky skunk.


That's the problem with Bayesian statistics. Choosing the "right" priors and ignoring all physics underneath a given result, you can achieve pretty much any conclusion you want. In this case, you are ignoring the basic point that the ellipse is a one-sigma limit. The only thing you can say, without any priors, is that points over FIVE sigma from the centre are excluded. Five sigma on that plot would be a pretty big ellipse, which says everything is possible. Drawing a conclusion on the probability of one theory over the other from a one sigma "exclusion" range is definitely impossible, or better: it's totally meaningless.

As for a prior favouring the SM over the MSSM, it's obvious that, a priori, you SHOULD favour the long-tested model over the new one(s). To be accepted, any SM extension must be proven right over the SM above all reasonable doubt; therefore, you should doubt them all, even if you work on them (and I say this as someone who works on both SUSY and LED models). Therefore, as long as the SM isn't definitely excluded or very disfavoured, it is our current, accepted and favoured model.

Remember that "10 times more likely" equals to a SM probability of the order of 10%. Signals that showed a much smaller probability for the null hypothesis (excluding it at two, three, even four sigma) have come and gone many, many times before. Drawing any conclusion over a one sigma "signal" is just plain ridiculous.

Now, in a completely OT question: why doesn't the CAPTCHA appear while I'm using Opera? That's Opera 10 for Linux, The CAPTCHA box contains only "If you register, you will never be bothered to prove you are human again.". Could it be the adblock running wild?

lumidek's picture
Concerning your ideas about priors: Not at all. If you need an authority, you may listen e.g. to Feynman's Messenger Lecture 7 to understand that the most important thing for science is the existence of scientists who have nonzero - or comparable - priors for all possibilities. It doesn't matter if one is "slightly" shifted to one side - because evidence will return him back to reality - but it's essential not to have dogmas, like philosophers, that are not subject to tests.
Your comment that SM must be "a priori favored" over MSSM is bigotry. Rationally speaking, all tests that have verified SM in the viable parts of the parameter space have also verified the MSSM in the viable parts of its parameter space, and it's just very wrong to be biased about this self-evident elementary point. Saying that the data only validate SM is probably caused by a confusion between history and physics. Physics is not history. It is completely irrelevant whether SM or MSSM was written down first.

I am not saying that the plot settles the SM vs MSSM debate. I am just saying that it makes MSSM relatively to SM 10+ times more likely than what they were before the plot. It's the only conclusion one can make out of it.


lumidek's picture
Let me say that it is hard to understand how can we disagree about such things. There may be a lot of other issues about the priors for SM or MSSM, a lot of philosophy etc.
But this is just a straightforward and useful measurement, designed exactly for this SM/MSSM question. One can extract a sign - plus is above the red-green boundary, minus is below. And the experiment happens to give plus with 96.5% probability, as extracted from the distribution that the experiment has measured. And plus happens to be the same thing as MSSM possible, SM not. Doesn't it mean anything?

Concerning the MSSM undetermined predictions or "flexibility", the graph shows very clearly what it can do and what it can't do: the MSSM strip is just 2 times thicker. So it can't do much. It's still true that the top and W have essentially measured the MSSM/SM sign and the answer is MSSM at higher than 90% confidence level.

Otherwise, if there are theories with parameters, it is *guaranteed* that as the experiments continue, portions of their parameter spaces are going to be eliminated, step by step. It doesn't really falsify the theory until a very high percentage of the parameter space is killed. For two competing theories, the elimination of the parameter spaces can be going by different speeds because these are inequivalent tasks. 

So the percentage of the a priori parameter spaces of SM and MSSM that have been eliminated by 2009 is not a useful criterion to compare the validity of SM and MSSM because the elimination in SM as of 2009 can be close to the elimination of MSSM as of 1995. On the other hand, this W/top measurement is such that it is guaranteed to be "synchronized". It is designed to be synchronized because the same aspect of low-energy physics is measured for both, and SM and MSSM happen to have a nearly non-overlapping predictions. So such a measurement tells us much more about the relative validity of SM and MSSM.

Concerning the excluded interval for Higgs masses, SM may a priori have between 100 and 1000 GeV or something like that, let me not go into details. But precision experiments have already excuded the interval between 185 GeV and 1000 GeV, a vast majority of this interval. People like you just don't like to call it by the right words. On the other hand, when LEP experiments exclude 90-115 GeV range for MSSM, which is about 1/2 of the a priori range, you love to talk about exclusion. But it's the very same thing in both cases, and in the SM case, a bigger portion of the parameter space has actually been excluded than for MSSM.

All these precision data are still far from making me "experimentally sure" that MSSM is right, of course. But I already see a significant if not huge bias on your side - and the side of others - and I wonder how far it can go in the future. When superpartners are seen, will you continue with some interpretations within SM being more likely? I am afraid you will. This is a situation that the history of science has seen many times - bigotic, limited people unable to understand that some new ideas are already much more favored by the known empirical facts.


Hi,

as the "author" of the m_t-M_W plot (though not of the new m_t determination!) I feel that I have to
clarify one thing: The upper limit of the green (MSSM) area is not 100% strict. One can indeed stretch
the MSSM to fill out the upper part of the plot completely.
This is in more detail explained in the corresponding publication,
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0604147, p28, and also mentioned on the public web page where
we provide these plots, http://www.ifca.unican.es/~heinemey/uni/plots .
We felt, however, that filling out the whole upper part of the plot with green would not give a clear impression
of the "possibilities" of the MSSM. For the experts: we left out parameter combinations which have a very
large mass splitting in the scalar top or scalar bottom sector. These parameter combinations are experimentally
"excluded" exactly by the m_t and M_W measurements. For more details I refer to
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0604147 .

On the other hand, we did not treat the MSSM different from the SM. Also in the SM we left out
experimentally "excluded" Higgs masses of M_H > 400 GeV. Therefore, in both cases, the size of the
area is somewhat arbitrary.

A final remark: I am not sure whether this was understood correctly: the whole area shown for the MSSM fulfils
all existing collider constraints on the Higgs masses and on the SUSY masses.

lumidek's picture
Dear Sven, thanks, and understood. The MSSM strip could have been thicker but if it were really thick, it would no longer be correct to say that the "prior probability density" in this strip is nearly uniform, would it? So the strip thickness you chose may indicate a reasonable "effective" thickness for which the probability density can still be approximated by a constant.

1. Doesn't the ellipse being outside the SM point to new physics whether or not it is MSSM?

2. Quibbles with your article:
a. NNLO moves the Tevatron top mass of 173 GeV to 168 GeV. That is 25 Lambda_QCDs, not just a few.
b. The top mass using NNLO is known to 2 parts in a hundred (168+-3.6 GeV) and not 7 parts in a thousand.
c. The relationship between Higgs mass and W and T masses is a theoretical one, and presumably which T mass to use is theoretically specified. Presumably the NNLO T mass is the right one to use? You haven't made that clear, though I suppose the theoretical relation relates the pole mass.

I see that Lubos has mentioned me above in his comment timed 07/18/09 | 03:30 AM. I saw Lubos' post first, and sadly commented there because I had the impression from that post that Tommaso was now a fully-fledged convert to supersymmetry dogma from having been a skeptic, and now believes dogmatically in the MSSM, due to the fact that it fits the ratio of charged weak boson mass to top quark mass, whereas the SM doesn't appear to have a high probability of fitting it (although, obviously, finite error bars and error zone areas can't encompass 100% probability, so there is always some - albeit small - chance that disagreements between one theory and the data will be resolved by improved instruments or analysis techniques, rather than by abandoning one theory and adopting another). Lubos deleted a comment from me suggesting that the graph on his blog post be labelled to make it meaningful. But Lubos is right to insist that the SM is imperfect, and needs to be replaced by something else, but not something that increases the number of adjustable parameters by over 100 and the number of universes to 10^500:

“... the standard model depends on 24 numbers, whose values cannot be deduced from first principles, but which have to be chosen to fit the observations. What understanding is there in that?” - Stephen Hawking

- http://www.hawking.org.uk/index.php/lectures/91-godelendofphysics?format...

Hawking's point here sems to be that what is needed is a theory which reduces (rather than increases) the number of unobservables.

lumidek's picture
I have erased your comment because you have not only confirmed that you had studied neither the graph nor my article before posting your text, but you wouldn't study it even before you posted your second comment because it's too difficult for you to read the text explaining what the graph says. You're just an obnoxious brainwashed spamming robot, I have banned you, and I will do my best to assure you that your f*ing as*ole will never enter my blog territory and write your s*it again.

In real (experimental) life, the jet energies are determined using energy deposited within a specific area. The color connection may cause a significantly non-Gaussian tail on that energy deposition. Were the theoretical calculations of the difference in top pole mass from the "measured" top mass done with reference to the experimental methods for jet energy reconstruction?

Does this perhaps mean that we shouldn't have too much confidence in fairies, um I mean Higgs bosons, at all?

All the time I hear physicists talking about the "simplicity" and "beauty" of their current understanding. What's simple about this? This stuff is insane.

Hi Lubos, I did read your blog post, but I think you could have written and illustrated it better to make quicker for busy people to assimilate. However, that's just my suggestion, and you're welcome to do on posting diagrams which have no labels if you wish!

dorigo's picture
Ahem. Sorry for letting this thread drift unattended, but I am spending my vacations in Elafonissos, a tiny, splendid island in southern Greece. Internet is erratic here, and I do not ache for it too much.

I will skip answering Lubos -in the certainty he will apologize me- because our discussions on this issue are rather fruitless.

Answers to Mad Hatter:
1) the ellipse is out of the SM region, but not by much. Even if we use the top mass as determined from the cross section using NNLO calculations, as in the graph shown (which, I need to remind everybody, has a significantly lower top mass than the current world average, and also three times less precise), the SM remains pretty much alive, being just one to two-sigma unfavoured.
2a) nobody is saying lambda qcd has anything to do with the different determinations of top pole mass one way or another. Here we are dominated by other systematics, ones on cross section and ones on jet energy reconstruction (again, not ones related to tiny color-connection issues).
2b) of course, did not say anything else. The top mass world average  has a precision of 7/1000, the one discussed in this article is 2/100.
2c) the top pole mass is the one to use in the plot above, since it is the one entering the calculations of quantum corrections.

Anon, I do not understand exactly what you are asking, but the top mass determinations at the Tevatron use jet energies, and assign systematic uncertainties due to the imperfect modeling of out-of-cone and splash-out effects; these include any color-recombination issues (which as I noted above are much smaller). Did I answer your question ?

Kea, be patient, and if you are right, well, we will know soon!

Anon, simplicity is not always evident to everybody. This particular study, anyway, is not simple, but it tries to shed some light on a simple theory.

Cheers all, and sorry for the delay
T.

I find it very hard to understand the psychology of people like Peter Woit and Lubos Motl. Peter Woit went into an all-out war with Clifford Johnson, a real expert on the subject in dispute, and [of course] was totally humiliated, having in the end to cut the proceedings short on the grounds that he was "too busy". Yet he still regularly goes out to other people's blogs, where he can't censor responses [which he does regularly on his favorite grounds that he hates anonymity, a feeble excuse indeed], and equally regularly gets clobbered. He seems to *enjoy* these public humiliations. And over here, of course, we have LM, getting into fights with our host. The last time he did this, the result was one of the most embarrassing public humiliations I have ever seen on the physics blogosphere --- see "Lubos Motl's Apology". It was so funny it was scary. And yet, here he is back again, claiming that he can do a useful analysis of the data on his little tin-pot desktop computer! Again, it's as if he gets some kind of secret perverse pleasure from having his ass kicked from Geneva to the brewery in Pilsen. I really don't know which of these two is the bigger fool; PW is slightly ahead at the moment, but I can see that LM is angling to overtake him again.....

Hfarmer's picture
Hmm I wonder why Peter hates anonymity.... could it be because without it people like you can't take consequence free pot shots.  I'm sure if we could know who you were and google each and every one of your off hand comments on the blogs we would find that you have been wrong too.  
Everyone is wrong from time to time even PhD'd physicsit. But at least with them we can know.   Unlike with anonymous persons such as yourself. 


dorigo's picture
Hontas, I could not have said it better. Anon, I am rapidly losing patience with comments such as yours. Peter is entirely right in censoring comments which are off-topic of configure as ad-personam attacks -such as yours. The threads of his blog benefit from the weeding off. Please do not force my hand in the same direction.

Cheers,
T.

Before you get all Woity and sanctimonious about anonymity and ban all anonymous postings, can you help me to understand one little thing?

Woit and Motl have spent *years* maintaining blogs whose main purpose is to insult people by questioning either their competence or their ethics [PW routinely questions whether various researchers actually *believe* what they write]. Everyone knows who they are. Question: What "Consequences" have they faced? Has either of them lost their jobs [as a "consequence" of their non-anonymity?] Have either of them been subjected to any more abuse than is logical in view of their activities?

This whole story about "at least if you put down your name you would have to take responsibility" is just bullshit, and the fact that nothing has happened to PW or LM proves it.

As for being off-topic: my post was of course prompted by LM's earlier posts in this discussion. The only "off topic" post here is by Ms Farmer.

dorigo's picture
Dear anonymous,

(incidentally, it would already improve things a bunch if one picked a nickname -one would still be anonymous, but would be recognizable by what he writes, if he wishes to do so; I see that you are in some way trying to do that with the way you write your name, and that is fine).

I disagree that Woit and Motl did what you say. First of all, they are quite different persons. Woit wrote a book, and having a blog with the same title is a very good way to continue informing his readers on the topics they read in his pages. Motl has a rather vitriolic way of discussing with people, and I do not like that; but he can also be a quite civilized being sometimes.

The consequences people face when they write things and they are recognized for what they write are that they have a credibility and a reputation. You, as an anonymous passer-by, have neither. Your comment may well be ignored, and indeed it should have, since it does not add anything about the topic of the article. By writing meaningful, to-the-point things on a thread, you can be anonymous and still pay a service to the community of readers; but by being anonymous and off-topic you do not.

Then, by insulting people hiding behind anonymity, you are acting like a troll and deserve no further words. I think you do not want to be a troll, however, and so I am spending my time answering you here, in the hope you can get back to contributing meaningfully.

Cheers,
T.

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