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By Anonymous | August 9th 2008 08:10 PM | 21 comments | 2342 reads | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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It isn't the same thing to have half the brain destroyed as having half transferred to another body.
Gerhard Adam's picture
Sorry, but this seems like a pointless discussion without a clearer definition of what is meant by a "soul" and what it means to have one. This also requires consideration for "souls" in other life forms which presumably it would be easier to work with. So ... is there a definition?
So you want a definition of something that no one knows actually even exists? Where have you been hiding your whole life? I didn't know there was anyplace where you wouldn't get exposed to religion. But I'll give you some answers even though I think you know the answers and are being deliberately ignorant. The soul is the part of us that lives on after the body dies. It may or may not be metaphysical, it may or may not be indestructable, it may or may not be the repository of lifes memories. It is the essence of what we are, it is the sum of lifes experiences. As to what it means to have one, it means we are more than just lumps of matter that dissolve after a few years of doing good, bad and in-between. It means that what we do in life matters. Maybe it only matters a little, maybe it only matters to our soul but it is much more than nothing. To think that only people have a soul is arrogant. The experiment I described in my blog will happen. It in no way will prove or disprove the existence of the soul, what it will do is raise questions about it.
Gerhard Adam's picture
I'm sorry but how can someone be deliberately ignorant about something that everyone is ignorant about. In fact you're suggesting that the "soul" is something which can be evaluated in a thought experiment. Therefore if you're going to ask questions, then you have a minimal obligation to define the terms of the question. Personally, I think you'd be lucky to get a consensus on a definition, let alone anything meaningful from a "thought experiment".
It's a thought experiment because it hasn't happened, yet. Here are the first 3 definitions from a dictionary which I didn't consult for my definition, I wrote my definition from what I believe the definition to be. I think if you do a poll of enough people you'll find that those of you who claim to be ignorant of what it is are in a small minority. 1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part. 2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul. 3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
Why would the soul be linked to the brain of a person? Do people who are sick or disabled have a 'weaker' soul (because their brain is 'weaker'), do people who are more intelligent have a stronger soul?

In my understanding of the soul, its existence is linked to the existence of God - a being uninfluenced by time and space. Therefore, the soul would also be uninfluenced by time and space. Therefore it wouldn't need a physical point of interaction, all it would need would be a way of being linked to a physical being, which would be spiritual (non-material) as itself.

If the soul is what characterizes human beings, then 'what' we call a human being defines (or describes) when a soul is in relationship with a body (or when a non-material entity is linked to a material entity). So the question doesn't become how much of a brain does a person need to have a soul, and rather the soul can be split, but what exactly is a person - did science define that yet?

Thank you for provoking thought about this question

:-)

Gerhard Adam's picture

So you want a definition of something that no one knows actually even exists?

I think if you do a poll of enough people you'll find that those of you who claim to be ignorant of what it is are in a small minority.

Once again you seem to want it both ways. You cannot claim that no one knows something exists, and then argue that only a minority are ignorant of a phenomenon. When putting an experiment together (thought or otherwise), it is a requirement that all the boundary conditions be set, as well as the criteria for determining what constitutes the event being considered. The purpose of a definition of the soul is precisely to avoid the wide-ranging definition that was pulled from the dictionary. The dictionary definition defines it as philosophical dualism, or a religious perception, or a ghost. This isn't nearly a narrow enough criteria to engage in any type of discussion. A "thought experiment" isn't simply an idle exercise in speculation, but rather it is to explore an idea logically to see where it takes you (especially when experimentation isn't possible). To do this, there must be a general agreement regarding what the thing being considered is. At present you've simply used a term that is far too vague to provide anything except pure speculation in response. In addition, by having a more stringent definition it becomes possible to determine when someone's ideas have moved outside the original conditions set for the experiment. At present there is no way to determine if any conclusion is logical since there are no boundaries about what is acceptable.
Jim Myres's picture

Glen you said

"The experiment I described in my blog will happen. It in no way will prove or disprove the existence of the soul, what it will do is raise questions about it." And later you said, "It's a thought experiment because it hasn't happened, yet."

I will assume that your concern is with science being involved in the splitting of the brain and maybe creating two soles where God has created one. I must agree that this does look like a procedure that is within the grasp of medical science.

I will also assume that we are addressing a Christian audience for sake of argument. I just happen to be more familiar with the Christian concept of the soul. The Catholic church, as most Christian churches believes that God gives the soul at the instant of fertilization, when egg and sperm come together.(1)

If this is the case, a soul at the instant of fertilization, then God has been playing this thought experiment game with us also. Maybe this is God’s way of letting us know it is all right for science to move in the direction it is heading.

The next paragraph is taken directly from Wikipedia, "Identical Twins:"

“Monozygotic twins, frequently referred to as identical twins, occur when a single egg is fertilized to form one zygote (2) (monozygotic) which then divides into two separate embryos (3)... Division of the zygote into two embryos is not considered to be a hereditary trait, but rather an anomaly that occurs in birthing at a rate of about three in every 1000 deliveries worldwide... The two embryos develop into fetuses sharing the same womb. When one egg is fertilized by one sperm cell, and then divides and separates, two identical cells will result. If the zygote splits very early (in the first two days after fertilization), each cell may develop separately its own placenta (chorion) and its own sac (amnion). These are called dichorionic diamniotic (di/di) twins, which occurs 20–30% of the time. Most of the time in MZ twins the zygote will split after two days, resulting in a shared placenta, but two separate sacs. These are called monochorionic diamniotic (mono/di) twins..... A recent theory posits that monozygotic twins are formed after an embryo essentially collapses, splitting the progenitor cells (those that contain the body's fundamental genetic material) in half. That leaves the same genetic material divided in two on opposite sides of the embryo. Eventually, two separate fetuses develop.”

This “anomaly” occurs after the egg is fertilized and the soul is implanted by God.  Do we now have an alpha and beta soul for this one original egg?  Does God decide which embryo gets the original soul and which gets a new soul?  This is the same dilemma you suggest will occur if science divides the brain (seat of the soul?) and creates two separate persons.

Fortunately we are discussing this today, five hundred years ago this discussion would have gotten both of us burned-at-the-stake as heretics.

1 - “The Catholic church holds the most conservative an stringent position... since it views human life as beginning at the point of fertilization.  The fertilized ovum is given the status of a human being...”  Albar, Mohammed, Induced Abortion from an Islamic Perspective, Journal of Family & Community Medicine, Vol. 8 No. 3, December 2001. (Talk about irony, I am Catholic and this is the best source I could come up with on short notice)
2 - One Zygote - one soul
3 - Two separate embryos - two separate souls




Firstly, why would it be arrogant to talk about souls as be only human artifacts, when that is precisely what traditional religions prescribe!

Secondly, why presume the brain alone comprises the soul? After all, our thoughts, emotions, ans well as reflexes are a function of the whole body's processes/systems ... endocrine, digestive, nervous, etc. In essesnce, it's as likely to affect the soul whether we're talking a leg or arm transplant , as it is a quasi-brain transplant. Just as in the concept of us simply comprising billions of cells, et we have a sense of oneness in identity and puposeful function, the soul, if I found it a viable enough concept to entertain, I think I would consider it the same, a "spirit" permeating the whole of the body.

"...why presume the brain alone comprises the soul? After all, our thoughts, emotions, ans well as reflexes are a function of the whole body's processes/systems ... endocrine, digestive, nervous, etc. In essesnce, it's as likely to affect the soul whether we're talking a leg or arm transplant , as it is a quasi-brain transplant. Just as in the concept of us simply comprising billions of cells, et we have a sense of oneness in identity and puposeful function, the soul, if I found it a viable enough concept to entertain, I think I would consider it the same, a "spirit" permeating the whole of the body." Here's a thought experiment for you (this also will be possible someday soon): A mad doctor takes you and removes your brain and offers you a choice (beforehand of course), you can either choose to have your brain inserted in another body and have your original body destroyed or you can choose to have another brain inserted in your body and your brain destroyed, which would you choose? If you say the latter you're either a liar or stupid.
Gerhard Adam's picture
Presumably the soul, as described, is put into someone by God, and therefore represents that entity which will gain or lose eternal life according to Christianity. Therefore, it is the soul which will enter heaven or be damned to hell. For the sake of argument let's assume that the soul is part of the brain as mentioned previously, so that physical removal of the brain would possibility also split or transfer the soul. So here's the question: If an individual is technically brain dead and is to receive half the brain of a donor, then the original victim's soul has already left him. If we assume that this was a good person, we can further presume that it entered heaven. After the transplant we have two people with the same brain, so there are only two possible outcomes. Either the recipient is soulless, or the soul has been split. Now let's suppose that the recipient goes on to become a serial killer. If he is soulless then this is an essentially inconsequential choice since his soul is already in heaven, so this represents a "free pass" to do whatever he will. If the soul has been split, how will God reconcile the difference? Does the donor go to hell because of the actions of one half of his soul? It seems implausible in this scenario that such a thing as "half a soul" could have eternal life while half was condemned, so this seems like an unlikely condition. In either scenario, it is a contradiction that allows the recipient to get off scott free because God can't reasonably condemn the original soul since he has done nothing wrong. Similarly God can't punish the offending soul, since it isn't technically his. In the end, it makes little difference where the soul resides. It's the moral dilemma that is the crux of the argument.
outsidethebox's picture
I have a theory about the Soul, Infinite God, All matter, space, time,and beyond. They are interconnected and we are part of a process we came from God we go back to God it's a never ending cycle. It's beyond a cellular level. In it is all the knowledge and energy of all matter, space, time and universe's beyond infinite. It's a good place to be.
outsidethebox's picture
Sorry double post. May God be with you
Glen:

The rub lies in the fact that we know the brain is essential for sentience ... meaningful life, yet we know absolutely nothing of the soul - even if such a critter exists - regardless of contentions to the contrary. So, while I would prefer to protect my possibility of retaining sentient life, as I know it, I wouldn't care much about my body without my brain (unless, of course there was the possibility they could be reunited at some future point in this life.

You have to understand, someone who has no belief in the "soul" as the concept is generally perceived (as transcending the body after death, etc.) finds it fool-hearty to engage in the ethereal musings w.r.t. dissection of the soul, etc. Many who do entertain the notion of a soul somewhat equate it with the mind in a general way. However, it is my thinking that the mind (i.e., our sentience) is a factor of a gestalt effect of so many neurons firing and the massive amount of information being addressed by different parts of the brain. Much of psychoses has recently been attributed to damaged synapse functionality so that the normal filtering of sensory stimuli is impaired and there no longer a sensible interpretation by the brain when it "hears" all kinds of sound input, yet lacks the normal filtration system/ability. Imagine the confusion when some components of the brain fail and it is overwhelmed by sensory stimuli without a means of making sense of such ... nuts in a hand bag! So, to me, the mind is only extant in man (and perhaps a few other critters with highly developed brains) because of the enormous about of information able to be processed by the various components of the brain. It is debatable, to me, whether a human brain, sequestered (but "alive") from all social and sensory stimuli from birth (consider the brain does not perceive pain itself)would be a sentient enterprise. Actually, I think it would not be. However, an "experienced" brain kept "alive" but then sequestered, might very well retain sentience. Musings about splitting of a soul or what would happen to one when a brain is dissected, to me, is tantamount to the hypothetical (and to me nonsensical) musing as per whether or not God could create a stone which he was incapable of lifting... essentially, childish banter. Again, it is the only the Gestalt effect of the hyper communications system going on in the brain that affords our sentience or mind, to my thinking (and that seems to be the growing consensus of experts in the field. There seems to be a certain point where there is enough informational exchange such that there is a sense of self-recognition and purposeful thinking extant.

There is plenty of nonsensical entertainment if one has the time or desire, but with no evidence of a soul, why create straw men, I say. I seems much more productive to work at understanding the mind/psyche (how it works and can be kept healthy)than to delve into any hypothetical and very unlikely mystical components. There is too much work to be done on this planet for mankind to survive so one shouldn't get too ethereal about any possibility of life after death. No one can prove there isn't, but neither can one prove we are not a figment of another's imagination. I say, deal with what we can know and expand on it, making the best of it. Otherwise, we may, say, become lost in group insanities such as the ones now plaguing the planet, where groups kill groups with one or another's god/ideology marching beside them. I'd like to think we learn from holocausts such as the Crusades and other fanatic ideologies. There would be no point in me arguing with an Apocalyptic fundamentalist (no, I'm not implying you are one, just using it as an example). The are not respectful of my reasoning, and I am not respectful of their fanciful mysticism. However, I could abstain and let them believe what they "must," if they were not intent/insistent on converting, enslaving, or destroying non-believers. It would seem they have little choice on continuing that rampage, lest they become cheery-pickers of their creed, which some of the moderates have been able to do. Personally, I think mysticism will eventually give way rationalism ... if mankind can survive the interim.

outsidethebox's picture
I don't believe the soul is limited to the heart, or brain, or any one part of the body. But more of a LIFE FORCE. When you die there is no need for the LIFE FORCE in a dead body, so it goes back to god. God being the ultimate LIFE FORCE. That works for me.
"I don't believe the soul is limited to the heart, or brain, or any one part of the body. But more of a LIFE FORCE. When you die there is no need for the LIFE FORCE in a dead body, so it goes back to god. God being the ultimate LIFE FORCE. That works for me." Then either of the scenerios I mentioned would be quite a dilemma for you. Worse, if you were the person who had to decide for someone else. Worse yet, if a religious fanatic like you had to decide for me. Some of the reasons I posed the questions to begin with.
outsidethebox's picture
Glen There would be no dilemma for me. First I wouldn't do ether one. Life force is not yours personally it's just on loan. I would have to disagree with you, I am not a religious fanatic as you stated earlier, I have just given this some thought.
"I don't believe the soul is limited to the heart, or brain, or any one part of the body. But more of a LIFE FORCE. When you die there is no need for the LIFE FORCE in a dead body, so it goes back to god. God being the ultimate LIFE FORCE. That works for me." Are you saying you wouldn't act on your beliefs? You would completely ignore them? Please. I think you would act as you believe and your beliefs have no scientific basis, that is why I consider them fanatical. Of course, you don't.
Lucferris's picture
This is my first day on this website, and I must say that I am thoroughly impressed. There aren't enough people on the planet writing about the kind of things that you are writing about here Glen. To question the existence of the soul is to question the universe in general. School children are taught that the solar system is vast yet is a tiny part of our galaxy which is a tiny part of the universe as a whole. What is existence? Is there a God? The thought experiment has been going on since day one. Humans get angry when you start to question their beliefs. But what are those beliefs in the first place except proposed answers to questions. As long as we continue to question and continue to search we will be fine. I'm not afraid of heaven or hell as much as I am afraid of oblivion. I believe that there is nothing wrong with that fear. More than likely I am a collection of chemicals and electrical impulses that make me who I am; therefore, oblivion is nigh. What separates humans from the other animals, is that we continue to wonder about our existence. Here's another hypothetical for you, Glen. What if we can create a human-like machine capable of thinking as fast and as parallel as the human brain. What if we could even mathematically give this machine the same flaws that our chemical bodies cause in our psychological make-up? A thinking unnatural creation that is so human but not. Would that being have a soul? And how would you explain it to him either way? See, the question is always there, and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. -LucFerris
rholley's picture
I cannot begin to comment on the main issue here, but I thought I would share this joke with you.

"How did you get here?"

"Well, it was when I went for my PhD interview. The professor was looking at me all funny, and I was starting to get uneasy.

'Don't worry, Miss X.' - he said. - 'It's not your body I'm after, it's your brain.'

How was I to know he meant it as a control unit for this spaceship?"

Robert H. Olley
Physics Department
University of Reading
England

"How did you get here?" "Well, it was when I went for my PhD interview. The professor was looking at me all funny, and I was starting to get uneasy. 'Don't worry, Miss X.' - he said. - 'It's not your body I'm after, it's your brain.' How was I to know he meant it as a control unit for this spaceship?" That sounds familiar. Was it from a classic sci-fi story? I probably have read it. I think it was a Lost in Space episode too.

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