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By T. Ryan Gregory | June 24th 2008 12:07 PM | 14 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About T. Ryan Gregory

I am an evolutionary biologist specializing in genome size evolution at the University of Guelph in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. Be sure to visit Evolver Zone


... Full Bio

Apparently Gordy Slack, author of a book on the Dover trial, has written a piece in The Scientist discussing (in his opinion) What neo-creationists get right. I can't access the article for some reason so I won't comment in detail, but fellow bloggers/academics Jeffrey Shallit and PZ Myers have discussed it unfavourably:

Our own Hank Campbell has thrown in his 2.0 cents:

If, as has been suggested, Slack is merely giving credit for pointing out that there are things we do not yet know, then PZ's criticism seems appropriate.  This isn't so much what I want to discuss, however -- I want to focus instead on something in Hank's more congenial post, in which he stated:


So I looked at Slack's piece on its merits and he makes one point I have often made - it isn't just uneducated religious fundamentalists who maintain a belief without knowing what they are talking about. Plenty of atheists do the exact same thing without knowing a thing at all about adaptive radiation. They believe in evolution because scientists do. Their faith in science is blind and unquestioning and at the end of the day it's no different than the religious kind.


I agree that thee are many people who accept evolution -- probably most, in fact -- who have a very limited understanding of the topic.  The important point, with which I also agree, is that "they [accept the historical fact of] evolution because scientists do".  Where I disagree is in the claim that this is no different from religious faith.

When I am ill, I go to the doctor.  I do not have advanced medical training, I do not regularly read medical literature, and I do not have a substantial knowledge of human ailments.  I do, however, trust that my doctor does.  I trust that the drugs he prescribes will have been tested and shown to be effecacious with tolerable side-effects.  I trust that the connection between treatment and disease has been worked out and is understood well enough for the diagnosis and response to be accurate.  I trust that he is basing his decision on a firm knowledge of the human body and the problems that beguile it. If any of these turned out not to be the case, I would be looking for a different physician.  In short, I myself am "blind" in medical situations, but I do not have "blind faith" in modern medicine. 

Similarly, I do not expect non-specialists to have a detailed knowledge of any particular scientific topic, but I hope that they will understand the process by which knowledge is developed, tested, and updated in science.  If someone accepts something because scientists do -- and indeed, that is why I accept the existence of atoms and relativity, though I am not a physicist -- then all they need to have confidence in is the scientific method.  And they should do so, as I do when visiting the doctor, by expecting results.  If science were constantly, terribly, irreparably incorrect, then no one should believe it.  But if airplanes fly, computers compute, and antibiotics kill bacteria, then we can be confident that the method works for the most part.  And since evolution has been studied with the same method, and has survived 150 years worth of testing, I think it is anything but "blind faith" to accept, along with scientists, that it is a historical reality regarding life on this planet.

 

 

 


Comments

I agree that comparing it to religious belief is going too far, but I'm not convinced that "confidence in the scientific method" is the major reason laypeople accept evolution, although it ought to be, and yes, that's why scientists accept scientific findings beyond their expertise, such as biologists accepting relativity and quantum mechanics.

In my experience, a lot of laypeople see science as just another part of politics. Conservatives often reject evolution and global warming for political reasons, and progressives accept them likewise. Being a progressive myself, it would be easy to assume that progressives are simply better informed on science and its methods, but unfortunately a lot of non-scientist progressives I've met accept a lot of nonsense contrary to science when it fits with their political beliefs (the supposed link between vaccines and autism, the cult of "natural" foods and cures being better than manmade ones, etc.)

T Ryan Gregory's picture
I wondered if that might come up in comments. I didn't mention two other things that occur. 1) People *not* accepting evolution even though scientists do so, and 2) People accepting evolution for political or philosophical reasons. I think your point is valid -- many people do accept evolution for the same reason that even more reject it, because of philosophical interpretations. However, the quote in question referred in particular to people who accept evolution because scientists do, which is not blind faith. Whether it is equally invalid to accept evolution because of what it means for someone philosophically is another interesting, but different, question.

So, we have Americans who are ignorant about evolution but nonetheless "believe" in it. And those that are ignorant about evolution and don't believe in it. Forgetting the latter, it's assumed that the former are simply putting trust in science as an authority, and that, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. However, that's also assuming the same population is knowledgeable about what comprises science/empiricism: knowledge of theories, of natural laws, of statistics, of objectivity, of skepticism.

Maybe I'm being cynical, but if they don't have this tool kit of sorts, I'm not sure what good it does for a whole swath of the population to believe in evolution other than to check a a yes on a polling question.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Ideally, everyone with a high school education in countries like the US or Canada should have some exposure to the types of scientific evidence that evolution is based on. I know this is an idea, but if you look at a good high school biology textbook (like the Miller/Levine one), you can get a good basic intro.

This doesn't mean that non-specialists will know all of the ins-and-outs and various subtle points associated with more advanced concepts, but I think that people who accept evolution based on their exposure to the science in a good high school class are not just taking things on faith.

Mike

You know if we all believed in evolution then we would still believe the cradle of civilization is in the African continent which would mean as we evolved and moved from there to other parts of the world we improved and that would mean that the black man is the least evolved human ..... Now to be politically correct the science world would never say that,,, so if they will not communicate the truth when they prove it to themselves how will we as laymen trust them to be truthful or just trying to disprove Biblical believers? Now I know scientist will come up with sum crap to show that this is not the case but common sense tell me different..

jtwitten's picture
Actually, it means that humans would become locally adapted to conditions.  Qualitative terms like more or less are meaningless in an evolutionary context when divorced from a statement about fitness in a specific environment.  How's that for "sum [sic]* crap"?  Fortunately, the scientific method frees of from the simple constraints of common sense. 

*In case you missed it, this means "thus" in Latin and is a way of poking fun at your efforts to put your common sense up against the scientific method, while completely failing at basic grammar**.
**In case you missed it, this was totally an ad hominem attack, but it made my day a bit better.

Actually if u r on the internet very much u will discover that abbr. r used very often and words that sound the same but shorter r often used to communicate . We often use "sum" instead of some to speed the process thinking you would be intelligent enough to understand but clearly u do have a problem with communication...so in the future i will spell things correctly so that even u can get it ..... Clearly the non- believing people of science try to put human limitations on God but he has no limitations so he could have easily made this world as old as he wanted it to be at the time he created it... and as the scriptures say , "professing to be wise they become as fools" ... Apply where needed.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Please don't use an inability to type as an excuse for abbreviations.  It's annoying and reflects poor communication skills. 

As for God making the world as old as he wanted it to be?  ... are you suggesting that he is attempting to fool us?  playing games?  After all, if he could do whatever he liked, then why deny science?  Couldn't the scientists be correct and you be the one that is wrong?

jtwitten's picture
Did you really just defend your inability to achieve subject-verb agreement by claiming that writing a four letter word is significantly quicker than typing a five letter word that makes your communication easily readable?  Apparently, the major issue is not intelligence, its that I'm far too coordinated.
so in the future i will spell things correctly so that even u can get it

You should have put the second clause first, then your use of "u" in the second clause would not have rendered the first clause invalid.

If this is what you believe:
God but he has no limitations so he could have easily made this world as old as he wanted it to be

then, sadly, the scientific method will be inaccessible to you and impossible for you to understand.

sorry , i did not see ur pic . u r just a child , holler back in about 25 yrs... u will change ur mind ... trust me

jtwitten's picture
That is agism, and agism is wrong.  I'm older than I look.  A regular regime of sex, drugs, and rock&roll keeps me youthful.

I am old, I remember when the dead sea first got sick.... I never did drugs but I do have lots of sex...lol and i actually play music. ( southern rock ). The evolution of music is so bad that it reinforces my belief in creationism.. Get u a cd of " Elvis from Memphis" and listen to some real music....lol... Todays music is so bad that I understand u guys taking drugs.. Wish u would read the Bible even if just as a history book and see where it takes your mind.....

Jeff Sherry's picture

Anon, every generation makes claims to what is so great about their own music. My parents youth straddled Big Band and the birth of Rock. My grandfather was a Jazz enthusiast that visted Harlem and the Village during the depression to listen to certain acts. So I expect you are talking out of your hat in your understanding of why people take drugs: nicotine, alcohol or whatever...

Strange that you even claim early Elvis or Southern Rock as great, considering rock was considered the devils music up til the '70's by many evangelical claiments. Even if I pull out my Sun Collection Cd of Elvis, how does that explain Elvises drug addiction or any of the deaths of many of the Southern Rock players?


Are you one of these folks that think reading the Bible creates conversion of people because of the holiness that it contains?



Gerhard Adam's picture
I have to raise the question about why does it matter what people believe? 

I don't have to know or believe in plumbing to call a plumber when I have a problem.  I don't have to know or believe in construction to call a builder for a new house.

As pointed out in the article, I presume that the expertise to perform these tasks (just like a doctor) is intrinsic in someone that proclaims themselves versed in such subjects.  However, the final judgment will be based on their actual ability to deliver.

Even under these circumstances my belief or lack thereof, has no bearing on the outcome.

The problem isn't what people believe, but what they actively choose to debunk or proclaim (usually with no expertise).  The question isn't whether doctors are qualified to practice medicine, but whether they are qualified to comment on plumbing.  Similarly do I want to go to a builder to discuss having a heart transplant?

Whether individuals believe in something for political or ideological reasons has no bearing until they elect to challenge the "experts".  

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