Track your comments!
[x]


When you register, comments on your articles and replies to your comments appear here. Register Now!

Sign in to your account
[x]

Not a Scientific Blogging member yet?

Register Now for a Free Scientificblogging.com Account

  • Customize your profile with pictures, banner, a blogroll and more.
  • Leave comments on articles, add other members to your friend lists, chat with people on the site.
  • Write blog posts that can be seen by hundreds of thousands of readers.

It's free and it only takes a minute!

Already a Scientific Blogging member?

Sign In Now

Fake Banner
By Nicholas Horton | April 27th 2009 05:18 PM | 7 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
.

More Evolutionary Economics articles

All

About Nicholas Horton

I'm a graduate student in mathematics at Portland State University. My areas of study are Quantum Game theory and Mathematical Biology with a focus in Evolution.

Outside of Math, my science interests... Full Bio

Is tenure good for America?


Mark Taylor, a professor of religion, has observed (in the New York Times) that:


"graduate programs in American universities produce a product for which there is no market (candidates for teaching positions that do not exist)…[with] sometimes well over $100,000 in student loans."

This is not really true of the sciences, where the main product is the research that is central to graduate education, research that often leads directly to improvements in healthcare, agriculture, engineering, or environmental quality. Nor do science PhD's usually take on much debt. (If you are applying to grad school in science, and they don't promise you fellowship support or paid teaching opportunities sufficient to meet minimal living expenses, it's either because you are poorly qualified or because the program is poorly funded. Either way, you should reconsider.)

But programs in the sciences do collectively graduate more PhD's than they hire, so a PhD is no guarantee of a faculty position.


Denison goes on to argue for tenure in the sciences, or at least being aware that taking away tenure could have an adverse effect on the scientific output of Universities, which in turn would have an adverse effect on our country, and the world, as a whole.

He may be right.  But, he's wrong about the debt.  At this point, the debt accumulated isn't from ones graduate program generally, it's from ones undergraduate program.  It is VERY  easy to graduate with more than $50,000 of debt from your undergrad at a STATE school.  Way higher from private schools.  Only people with rich Mommies and Daddies (or a willingness to go part time for 6 or more years while working full time) can avoid it.  

And besides, tenure is a dying dream in ALL fields.  Unless you graduate from one of the top 20 schools in your field, forget about getting a tenured position at a research university.  That's a pipe
dream.

But, don't worry, the adjunct life ain't bad.  And PhD's at a think tanks and research firms don't do bad either.  Neither of which are affected by the tenure system in a direct way.


Comments

Becky Jungbauer's picture
Depends on the prof, of course. I've had some incredible professors, young and old, with tenure. I've also had teachers that should never have been awarded tenure and should not have been professors at all.




Hank's picture
The nature of tenure makes that possible, though.    Imagine if Citi or GM had tenure (well, GM sort of does, with some pretty onerous union contracts) and it's obvious why it doesn't make sense in academia.    Like Supreme Court justices, tenure was supposed to make academics immune to political and cultural gerrymandering but they began, at least in humanities, to do it to themselves.

Nicholas is certainly correct about undergraduate costs - when politicians trolling for votes starting declaring college educations a 'right', the influx of free money brought on by unlimited loans set off an inflationary spiral upward, simultaneously bogging down graduates with debt while diluting the value of the degree.

Nicholas Horton's picture
Ya, I'm inclined against the idea of tenure, but that may be because I'm one of those debt-ridden grad students from a lower ranked school who isn't gonna get it anyway!

But, we've all had the experience of professors who are just "phoning it in", because they know they can.  Actually, I've found many of my best professors to be the ones who are tenure-track, but not there yet.  They're working their asses off to be both good teachers AND good researchers, because that's what it takes to get tenure.   The carrot out front is good, but once they get it ...

adaptivecomplexity's picture
But, we've all had the experience of professors who are just "phoning it in", because they know they can.  Actually, I've found many of my best professors to be the ones who are tenure-track, but not there yet.

 I've also had teachers that should never have been awarded tenure and should not have been professors at all. 

I'm coming late to this conversation (as usual). But keep in mind that, especially at research universities, tenure isn't usually about teaching - just because someone sucks at teaching undergrads doesn't mean that person shouldn't have had tenure. (Although of course there are tenured people who suck at more than just teaching.)

Being at an academic medical center (where issues of teaching are minor), I think tenure is a good thing - or if it's replaced, it has to be replaced with some other mechanism that allows promotion committees to  take the long view. In the biomedical sciences, we already have a culture that does way too much conservative, unimaginative science, because that's how you get funding. Tenure at least helps ambitious scientists who have tenure think beyond safe, short-term projects, because if something doesn't pan out immediately, their careers aren't ruined.


If we were to replace tenure, we should replace it with something like mini-tenure: you get job security for 10 years, at which point the university can decide to keep you for another 10 years or let you go.

Becky Jungbauer's picture
I agree, I think at a large academic medical center tenure isn't all about teaching. I went to a teeny tiny undergrad, though - there were maybe 30 of us total in the biology program, and probably 10 of us in the pre-med program, if that - and I remember realizing sophomore year that professors were supposed to do research, but I thought (incorrectly, I think) that the small school professors weren't held to the same requirements because so much more of their time was spent on teaching. I think it's vastly different for a professor who teaches several classes per semester at a school with a total undergrad population of less than 1,000, than for a professor at a huge university that might teach one or two classes and have 1,000 kids in just those classes. I'd argue, from personal experience with the tiny school for undergrad and the huge school for grad school, that the former affects the students exponentially more than the latter. I honestly don't know if the rules are different, though - do profs have different standards depending on where they teach?

adaptivecomplexity's picture
 but I thought (incorrectly, I think) that the small school professors weren't held to the same requirements because so much more of their time was spent on teaching. 

I think you're right. Schools need to find a balance. If a department is serious about teaching (there are plenty of first-rate schools that are all about teaching, and not about grad students and research), they need to promote based on teaching, or find some sort of balance if there is a mix of emphasis. The rules should be different at different institutions based on a department's needs. I don't know if they are though.

Nicholas Horton's picture
Michael, I like your idea of "mini-tenure", and not just because it makes me think of Hobbit-sized professors in funny hats.  It would be a bit like A-Rod's Texas Rangers 10-year contract, but with more teeth and less money.  It locks the school and the professor in together for a while, giving the professor time to show what he can do.  But, the school has the opportunity to out the guy if he turns out to be a dud. 

Add a comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <sup> <sub> <a> <em> <strong> <center> <cite> <code> <TH><ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <img> <br> <p> <blockquote> <strike> <object> <param> <embed> <del> <pre> <b> <i> <table> <tbody> <div> <tr> <td> <h1> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <iframe>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
CAPTCHA
If you register, you will never be bothered to prove you are human again. And you get a real editor toolbar to use instead of this HTML thing that wards off spam bots.