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By Delian Valeriani | February 14th 2009 02:23 PM | 33 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Delian Valeriani

Delian Valeriani recieved an Associate of Science from Central Maine Technical College and an Associate of Applied Arts in video production from Rockport College. He is an artist and is currently... Full Bio

--- ---WARNING--- --- THIS IS RAW UNEDITED CONTENT --- it essentially amounts to stream of conscious and I have not gone back over it since I wrote it. I have included it because it contains some elements that I want to convey that links with ideas from previous exerpts. Also It is helpful for me to see peoples comments on what I have so far. I do plan on breaking this down and starting from scratch. I hope to publish the final product. --- --- And now... Explanation Part Two...
Religion was useful at a time when humanity had no knowledge of physical properties and thought that the wheel was a pretty neat idea. Creation myths are a part of human culture. Because the question of how is it possible that we exist is so complex we are still exploring it. This question has always been important to us as humans and every culture has a creation myth that attempts to answer it. From the bearers of these myths came our shamans, from shamans came ritual. The rituals serve to help the individuals and the society to feel as if they had control and give them an impression of order. From these rituals came religion. Religion established a basic system of rules to live by that were environmentally appropriate to civilizations struggling to come out on top in a world that had very limited accessible resources and with no other real way of establishing a dominate ruler. Religion assured that the leaders of the society had control over their growing population.



Humans naturally play a balancing act between unhindered change and miserly obstinacy. Change without thought is as dangerous as the inane habit of insisting things should remain exactly the way they are. The politics of the 21st century are on the left and right of the political realm are revolving around the preservation of sure fire doom. Religion hinders any rational thought through an unjustifiable insistence that everything that some guys said a couple thousand years ago about impossible occurrences and outdated tribal traditions hold just as true today as they did then. The problem is of course that most of these ideas never resembled anything even close to truth or reality. They were primitive methods of localized social cohesion. This does not stop religious fundamentalists from running these theories as a platform to base agendas that will have global repercussions.



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I don’t believe that anything outside of physical reality whatever that means, or in “heaven” created the Universe or has anything to do with what happens on earth or anywhere else. I really don’t think that any religious tradition has any legitimacy whatsoever. I do not necessarily consider myself an atheist, and I am certainly not agnostic. I’m not going to make a fuss about it, I just don’t feel the term applies and it has many negative connotations associated with it.



The term atheism is a misnomer in a sense. Atheism implies a negative; against theism while in reality in the truest sense so called atheists are not just without religion they are separate from religion. They have no relation. People who believe that the scientific method is the best way to learn do not follow a belief system, they use a method to investigate reality, one that can change and disprove pre-conceived notions. There are many theists who see Atheism as a religion, and that shows a deep misunderstanding of science. The term Atheism is derived of a religious conception of absolutes i.e. you are religious or have rejected religion. I haven’t rejected religion I just have no reason to believe any religion is the religion and further I don’t even know what god is supposed to be.



You can say many things about the idea of god but you cannot describe what god is. That is because god does not exist and so of course cannot be defined. Furthermore there are an endless amount of religions and sects so how is one from outside of religion to determine which the correct interpretation of reality is? They can’t all be right. If one is right then it is purely by an insanely low probability, about the same probability of a fire breathing dragon appearing in front of me right now and doing a jig, or a black hole being created by the Large Hadron Collider that swallows the earth, so for all intents and purposes, none because that did not happen since you are reading this. They certainly would not be right do to any exclusive knowledge of truth but because of some freak bit of chance. 



There is no term to describe my perception of belief; I simply believe that the scientific method is the best way to understand how things are. This is a belief but certain beliefs are more legitimate than others. My beliefs revolve around accumulated evidence not a text around a thousand years outdated or concocted by a science fiction writer on an acid trip. My beliefs are also flexible to allow new evidence in addition to or discrediting earlier studies. Religion is based on texts and ideas people have passed down through generations while science is based on what the world reveals to us not what someone says is reality with no evidence. Science is based on experiments with proper controls and have been independently repeated and verified which can be repeated later and come out with the same result.



The major reason why I don’t like the term atheist is because it would be unscientific to say there is definitely no god, for one because it (god) cannot be defined and that makes it difficult to not believe in something because I wouldn’t know what I am not believing in. On the other hand if god were at some point defined and there were sufficient evidence for it, whatever it would be, I would believe in it as much as I believe anything else.



I’m not agnostic because I certainly am not unsure of my beliefs; I sincerely think there is no reason for me to believe any religion bears any deep knowledge of reality beyond what anyone else knows and that religion’s beliefs are generally contrary to all evidence.



And no it doesn’t bother me that science can’t answer the question what came before the big bang. Just because we don’t know a part of something does not discredit everything else related to it and automatically prove that something totally unrelated is true. The simplest answer tends to be the correct one, and yes I do believe there are correct answers, (it’s the belief in the answers I’m skeptical of) so the idea that “god”, whatever that is, created the universe is a further complication. The age old question what created god is legitimate. And if the answer is it just is, and always was why is it so hard to believe the universe just is and always was? There is no need to complicate the issue with creationism.



Religion and the English language so far cannot accommodate for this style of thought. That is because as I said religion sees everything as black and white. It misses the colorful spectrum that makes up what we consider the light. The English language was evolved at a time when religion was essentially unquestioned and therefore by a mindset that fits this view of reality. The language forces definition and lacks the subtlety that pervades reality. This is why math is the language of science. Unknown variables, spectrums and approximations are well defined and understood operators in mathematics.



In order to discuss any of these ideas non-mathematically yet succinctly would require a complete linguistic overhaul, or maybe I am just not proficient enough with the English language. But if there is and I did I don’t think that this text would be accessible to the general audience. I am not a non-believer or an atheist, this type of mindset is completely separate from religious belief not a rejection of religion, per se.   



 If I were to state my style of ideas I would suppose I am closest to an Objectivist, though they may object to that. The problem with Objectivism is in the name, it is a philosophy that assumes a purely objective reality and disregards the subjective world that the memes guiding our lives reside in. My philosophy is essentially the same as Objectivism but with more specific conditions to account for the moral relativism that has sprung up because it assumes its own validity where in reality competing philosophies are a real threat. There must be rule sets to enforce the philosophy or it will have no way of defining a threat to its moral base.  It is especially crucial in a world dominated by religions that have obsessive fundamental faith in their beliefs which they will do anything to defend or promote.



In Objectivism there is no good or evil, from an objective viewpoint these words are meaningless. The universe does not care if we live or die. Only on the subjective plain of the human mind is there any form of good and evil. These terms are based on subjective viewpoints and only have any relevancy within these bounds. An Objectivist philosophy only sees the world as it physically is, it has no consideration for the individuals living in this objective world.



There truly is no meaning to life in Objectivism because it excludes what makes us human, it doesn’t account for the higher plane of reality that is human civilization. Logic does not always apply here. You never know what a person or group of people might do. We cannot predict human’s actions as we can a planet’s. Even if we are slaves to fate in some sense we must assume otherwise because the complexity of the system is too high. The variables are too high. We can never accurately predict what humans will do in the way that we can the rest of the relativistic universe.



In the objective realm all is equal, everything just is. In the objective realm our traditions, cultures and indeed our civilization have no importance. Everything becomes quite ridiculous. But this is not our reality. Our reality is not just in the objective but in the subjective in our minds; it is our perception and our knowledge and all that we have created that is our plane of reality, our understanding of the objective world and its relation to us. Our intelligent consciousness and our ability for intent give us meaning.



  This book has no meaning in the objective world. These words and letters have no meaning objectively. The meaning comes as you interpret these lines and shapes as written language, then as composite words and sentences that take on a whole other meaning when put together that is attempting to describe the human experience. Meaning is only possible in the subjective realm.



And there is meaning and purpose in this realm.  We attribute meaning and purpose to everything that we see. Every day we wake up and live another day because we have some notion that life does matter and is important in some way. That what we do is important in some way. Humans see meaning in nearly everything. We are set up to see symbolism and to relate everything to our selves. This does not mean that everything has meaning. Much of what we see is our brain trying to understand something it does not have the ability to comprehend. These are delusions in a sense. If something cannot be attributed to the objective reality, as in it cannot affect us or we cannot affect it then it is a phantom that exists only in our mind and can only serve to distract us from our reality. Our reality is the point at which objective and subjective unite.



The best example of this is civilization itself. We have utilized the objective world through, irrigation, stone, mortar and steel to separate ourselves from the objective world, that indifferent omniscience. It is the physical representation of our minds.  Our society is a creation of our subjective reality, the implementation of this plane of order and meaning onto the objective realm.



 There is a fundamental difference between the world we have constructed and the world that caused us to be. We control our own fates and make up our own rules on this plane of reality. We can and do affect the universe around us with intention. We interact with others with intention. We control how we interact.



Religion is humanities way of protecting itself against itself; science is humanities way of protecting itself against nature. Religion is society’s relationship to the subjective world while science is society’s relationship to the objectives world. In the same sense religion is a product of the collective sub-conscience and science of the collective conscience.



The collective sub-conscience is the need driven body of philosophy and politics relevant to a society.  This was the driving force of change as society developed. These are the developments of society that occur as an evolution of beliefs and lifestyles. All societies have at least three things; spirituality, tools/weapons and art. From there most societies moved to pastoralist and/or agricultural. Religion and government evolved in these societies in order to control the growing populous of sedentary society with plentiful food resources. Eventually written language was either created or adopted by these societies. These are all universal developments of independent cultures from the Mayans to the Chinese. All these developments were created independent of outside influence in human societies.



Pyramids are found in many independent societies as well. This could be attributed to divine intervention or aliens but more likely they were driven by the collective sub-conscience. The pyramid structure is the most basic of all large scale-structures, it is no coincidence that most of the early structures of human civilization are in the form, nor is it surprising. No other three dimensional shape is so easily achieved in large scale. These new civilizations, particularly the people in charge wanted to leave no question of their or control of society so they built excessively large structures to let everybody know this. The best way to do this was to build up and out and the best way to accomplish that is to make every level above the first smaller than the first so it doesn’t fall over. Try to see what the biggest stable structure is that you can achieve, with limited resources, with children’s building blocks. Of course you have built a pyramid. To realize this principle at its most basic level just look at mountains and ant hills.



Just like the pyramids all these societies developed similar structures because those were the only things they could build with what they had, and they had to build in order to maintain growing populous’. No one person dictated this, it just happened in response to society’s needs. Thus these societies sub-consciously developed according to their needs. This is a form of evolution. We are still subject to this principle though as society grows more complex the evidence is more convoluted. These are all things that seemingly just happened, government, religion and agriculture, but they were all slowly developed and evolved to what we have today. In the objective world none of these have any meaning and are irrelevant. In the subjective world of the human mind it is everything that matters. In this process all societies developed some form of science, some did not get to achieve science as we know it today but it was developing up until the societies fell.



  This development that began with the creation of stone tools and fire is the collective conscience. The collective conscience is the body of collective knowledge that a society maintains. As we build this body of knowledge we begin to understand how things work, what works and ideally why it works. As we understand something we begin to have the ability to manipulate it with intent instead of waiting for it to happen. Science developed out of the collective sub-conscience along with everything else, but just as humans evolved out of apes freeing ourselves from traditional purely objective evolution science evolved out of the collective sub-conscience − society being evolved by societal environment – with science and the collective conscience we can intentionally change society.



Stones tools and fire have evolved to lasers and nuclear power plants, religion has evolved to psychology, philosophy and politics and art is still telling the story in the most objective way possible for humans… subjectively.



Religion is an evolutionary remnant of our primitive past when we had very limited control or understanding (understanding being a prerequisite of control) of nature or ourselves. It is a passive driver similar to objective evolution that demonstrates how little we knew of our world and how little we still know of ourselves. Science actively drives society with intent and allows us to adapt more rapidly to our conditions both present and predicted. At this stage of development waiting for passive evolution could mean extinction of not only us but of all life on earth.   



We cannot leave our lives to fate, because fate has left us. Others in this world who have not over intellectualized their existence into nihilism and relativism will impose themselves upon us if we just let fate sweep us up. 



Comments

rholley's picture
I'm always a bit suspicious when people start telling us how our ancestors thought.  But rather than weary you with my own thoughts, I'd rather indicate how Owen Barfield saw it.
Logomorphism is the fallacious habit "at present extraordinarily widespread, being indeed taken for granted in all the most reputable circles" of "projecting post-logical thoughts back into a pre-logical age", of surreptitiously substituting our own phenomena for those which [our predecessors] were in fact dealing with". . . .

"The world-picture of modern science," . . . "is a fallacy, if we project it back into the past; and if we try to fix it for the future"  Logomorphism leads to all sorts of absurdities, of which Barfield took note throughout his career. In the book in which he first coined the term (Poetic Diction [1928]), Barfield discovers our thinking about the mythic to be logomorphic.

The remoter ancestors of Homer, we are given to understand, observing that it was darker in winter than in summer, immediately decided that there must be some "cause" for this "phenomenon," and had no difficulty in tossing off the "theory" of, Demeter and Persephone, to account for it. . . Imagination, history, bare common sense--these it seems, are as nothing beside the paramount necessity that the great Mumbo Jumbo, the patent double-million magnifying Inductive Method, should be allowed to continue contemplating its own ideal reflection--a golden age in which every man was his own Newton, in a world dripping with apples.

                                                    Encyclopedia Barfeldiana

Diminishing View's picture
I would actually prefer it if you would "weary" me with your own thoughts.

Diminishing View's picture

I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that you "scanned" this and "picked out a couple of words". I'm sure their are fallacies in this work... but I don't think your comment really applies here. I'm not taking "post-logic" and attempted to apply it to "pre-logical" times, I'm not really talking about logic at all here. What I am discussing is SUB-conscious societal drivers, the need driven society, organic, crude yet effective and more predictable than our own. I am not placing thoughts in their heads or implying conscious choice but a sub-conscious evolution of society that has been repearted over and over again through out history. I suggest you at least read a post before you comment on it. I don't mind criticism at all if it is accurate and helps me develop or at least tells me that I am totally wrong... but at least for the right reasons.



Gerhard Adam's picture

Part of the problem is that too much of this writing appears to be disorganized and "stream of consciousness" rather than organized in any particular way.  However let me analyze just the first paragraph to give you an idea of what I mean.

Since religion is clearly prevalent in the world today, it is unreasonable to equate it to primitive societies that thought the "wheel was a pretty neat idea".  I think the use of the word "myth" also carries a connotation that implies a certain level of foolishness to the believer.  While there have certainly been creation stories, there is nothing to suggest that they were believed as anything other than stories (except as today where some fraction will literally believe them).  Often the role of such "religious" stories was intended to convey complex survival information without being analytical about it.  This corresponds to the type of lessons taught in fairy tales and fables.  There is little reason to believe that anyone seriously considered that there was ever a race between a Tortoise and a Hare, and yet a lesson was being taught.

I would argue that these stories existed long before there was any need (or desire) to extend the explanations to origins.   When dealing with the unknown, most human behavior tends to be "ritualistic" in the sense that multiple steps may be taken to discover a solution to a particular problem.  Once something is discovered that appears to work, the same steps are likely to be used in the future and thus give rise to "ritualistic" behavior.   I'm not referring to actual ritual, but rather repeated behaviors that are intended to elicit a particular result. 

Once these processes had become established it isn't difficult to imagine how the most knowledge "thinkers" of a group could become shamans, since they would possess the most complete explanations for events.  In one sense, they would have been the primitive equivalent of the scientist. 

While formalized religions are no doubt a phenomenon of the rise of the city-state, there is nothing to suggest that this modern view of religion is comparable to traditional beliefs. 

I'm also not clear on why you keep indicating that there were such "limited resources" available to early humans.  There is NOTHING to suggest that that was ever true.  In fact, it is exceedingly unlikely that there was any serious resource shortage for the major part of human development.  Admittedly once humans elected to congregate together into early cities, then the advent of agriculture would have changed the situation regarding resources.

Interestingly enough, agriculture is not something one develops when resources are scarce, but rather when resources are abundant.  In other words, a starving person doesn't plant a garden.  The development of agriculture suggests that resources were abundant enough to afford the luxury of experimenting and establishing such a system. 

Anyway ... just some ideas regarding the first paragraph.



Hank's picture
Part of the problem is that too much of this writing appears to be disorganized and "stream of consciousness" rather than organized in any particular way.

I wondered about that too.   Is any of this stuff ever going to approach any kind of rational thought?   Insulting a literate, wildly intelligent gentleman of science like Robert Olley is not a great start either.

Gerhard Adam's picture
"People who believe that the scientific method is the best way to learn do not follow a belief system, they use a method to investigate reality, one that can change and disprove pre-conceived notions."

Not true.  The scientific method is as dependent on beliefs as any process involving human thought.  In fact, I would argue that there is no mental process possible without a belief system.

A belief system is the necessary organizing force within the brain to generate a usable worldview.  Without, there would be no means by which data can be organized or classified.  It is also used as a data filtering mechanism that ensures the data which fits into the framework is considered while data which doesn't is discarded.  In fact, the entire field of mathematics is simply a formalized logic system which is based on some fundamental beliefs (axioms) which are presumed to be unequivocally true.  For example, if ghosts are not part of one's worldview, then a noise in the night is investigated rather than attributed to a supernatural event.  Similarly we tend to be suspicious of any scientific theory or principle which is not ultimately reducible to mathematics.

Therefore the belief system for science is a worldview that presumes:

1.  The world is logical and capable of analysis
2.  Whatever is discovered will behave consistently (or predictably)
3.  Logical processes can be used to predict future events and behaviors
4.  The entire logical structure must be self-consistent and incorporate existing knowledge

There may be other variations (and the list is certainly not exhaustive), but in general these beliefs are fundamental to any consideration that science is a valid means of investigating the world.  It may seem intuitive or obvious, but that is only if your existing belief system already embraces the concept.  It is for this reason that other belief systems are nearly impenetrable to ideas that are not part of that framework.  Just as the ghost example previously, it is impossible to introduce an unacceptable idea into a belief system that isn't set to receive it.   


Diminishing View's picture
Hey, excellent! Sorry I wasn't intending to insult the gentleman, I honestly belive he didn't actually read the work. But clearly I have a lot of work to do on this... yes it is stream of consciousness. Hmm... you are very right about not switching without abundant resources that is something that has been shown historically. The axiom as a belief system I have something of a problem with because it is not faith so much as belief by logical association... well this has been a great session thankyou!

Gerhard Adam's picture

Don't equate "faith" solely to religions.  While that is the dominant use of the word, one of the definitions of faith is a "belief in something for which there is no proof". 

Since, an axiom can't be proven, it is taken to be a true assumption, so therefore it is technically an article of faith. 

Science, like religion, must accept some concepts as fundamental without being able to prove them.  The difference, is that science attempts to minimize such presumptions and build a logical viewpoint from this, while religion doesn't scrutinize it's "axioms" in a similar fashion.

As an example, in science there is a requirement that experiments be reproducible, and that explanations for phenomenon fit within the framework that has already been developed to explain what is known.  Each new discovery doesn't create new axioms and it would be a major upheaval in science should someone propose changing one of those fundamental premises.

In religion, such scrutiny isn't recognized, so even though there is a basic premise about what constitutes faith, there have been numerous instances of where new information is introduced without proof and simply accepted.  If it is rejected and the issue is significant enough then we see a splintering into different groups and denominations.  Essentially one could view all the different religous factions as simply groups that have disagreed about purported "experimental results" in religion.



Science can easily become as dogmatic as religion which is precisely what we encounter when new data is introduced which overturns a long held viewpoint.  This is why Einstein's work was considered so revolutionary, however even in this case there was a hint that it had to happen to bring Newton into line with Maxwell.  Bear in mind that even the development of the "scientific method" was a conscious act to provide a logical structure to how questions should be framed and addressed.  This was a marked departure from the approach used by the Greeks who felt that logic was sufficient.



This doesn't mean that relativity theory or evolution are articles of faith, but the initial axioms that gave rise to logical thought certainly are.  We trust that relativity and evolution are correct because the path that lead to these theories is consistent with our original premises.  We would also expect that any revision of these theories would follow the same path.  Once simply can't introduce new axioms to modify the results.

In my view this is precisely what the conflict between evolution and Intelligent Design comes down to, since science requires logical consistency within the existing framework, while the IDers simply think they can introduce new axioms.



I suppose I should say that the resources are not limited... it is the ability to utilize the resources that is limited by the technology of any given time, that is what I meant by limited resources. The other issue of need for change vs change due to abundance of recsources is something I will explore further... it si a complex balance and a fundamental of life... this gets into some interesting stuff.

Gerhard Adam's picture
"...it is the ability to utilize the resources that is limited by the technology of any given time, that is what I meant by limited resources."

When you introduce technology you need to be careful in the assumptions you make.  The technology of today is available because of a complex change in the interactions within society itself.  One does not build 747 aircraft by volunteers.  The technological infrastructure depends on individuals accepting the role laid out for them and, in a sense, being coerced to cooperate.

Modern society dictates that we all have a role to play which will be defined by our education and abilities.  After that we are required to participate in the economic system as an employee, or entrepeneur to obtain access to our individual resources.  It is this cooperative net which gives rise to the technological developments we see today.

If individuals have the freedom to obtain resources without such participation then the system would collapse.  When you consider how many hundreds of millions of people report to work for some entity, it is truly a major transformation in societal interactions.  Consider the effects of unemployment, and then consider the concept itself which is an absurdity in the biological realm.  In effect, this is the same limiting factor encountered by tribal societies, where the only developments that can occur are those that exist between volunteers, for as long as they are interested.  There is no method to compel cooperation and consequently large projects simply are beyond reach.

Diminishing View's picture

Right I'm not sure if what I have posted gets into that yet or not, but that is addressed at some point in the work. The collection of information and the building on that information goes along with the change based on abundance of resources due to the needs of the growing society... or whatever impetus that may be vs. true lack of resources and holding onto what we learned in the past and has been past down verbatim.  Actually this will make a good transition to the next post where I will attempt to explain the significance of entropy. I will utilize a book I'm reading called the Fifth Miracle for this discussion by Paul Davies. It was a conclusion I came to on my own but now that I am there I am finding that there is a whole vein of research dedicated to this so I take that as evidence that I'm on the right track. 

Let me also state that this post in particular is unedited text, I wrote what I have been posting over the last couple of weeks about two years ago, at the beginning of this journey when I had no real idea of the direction it would take. That being said there is a kind of rational for the "stream of conscious" method for this text, though I will be tearing what I have to the bones and starting from scratch eventually because I have just begun to grasp what I am doing.
 
There is a book I picked up recently called Nazi Psychoanalysis by Lawrence A. Rickels.  This book is not structured in a traditional sense, it is history through association, or psychoanalysis. I picked this up because I realized this is kind of what I am doing. I am studying broad spans of time and broad concepts on many different levels. I am attempting to associate some very basic physical laws with human society, linking physics with sociology, the idea of memes, biology, religion and politics and attempting to show how all of this links together. I am not trying to make scientific claims here. All I am doing is attempting to create a perception that I hope is, broadly, somewhat accurate, new and fresh. That being said when I state something like all interactive systems are conscious I do not mean this in a scientific sense. It is so vague as to be meaningless unless you look at the intent of this statement and the perception that I am attempting to perpetuate and that is that human’s grew out of natural properties that we can see all around us, there is no divine impetus that created life, it is something we have yet to understand, but if this perception is spread it can help people grasp how it may have been possible. We are the universes consciousness of itself. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


 In regards to the first comment I'm not the smartest person on this site obviously, but at least I'm thinking. I am not college educated in the way that most on this site are. My work is not government funded. I don't have any PHD's or anything, nor do I have professors or peers to discuss this with. I take offence to the notion that because I am not part of the Intellectual elite academia that I can be insulted for attempting to think on my own. I realize that the remark "Newton's seeing apples falling all around" was in a certain context but there is an implication that unless you are ivy league you should not be thinking. We need to encourage more thought and help people develop their thinking not dissuade them by insulting them. The internet gives us an opportunity to foster broader knowledge through both connection and the wealth of information at anybody's fingertips. You no longer need to be in academia to be a thinker. We are all potential Newtons and I think I may have just seen another apple. I can’t tell yet but I am investigating now.   



Gerhard Adam's picture
You're absolutely right that we're all POTENTIAL Newton's even if it is highly unlikely that any of us will surface in that fashion.  However, when you're writing "stream of consciousness" it's like the old adage of watching sausage being made.  While you may like the result, it's not something you want to see while it is being produced.

Diminishing View's picture

Well, I'm hoping that I can get some tips on how to make sausage. Also I think there is a market for people to watch how to make sausauge or there would'n't be shows such as How Its Made or dirty jobs. I personaly find process fascinating, the journey is half the fun. But on the other hand you may be right... I'll consider trying to figure it out on my own, or possibly find a new platform that is more appropriate. It just become difficult to continue with the process without external communication. Just talking about it helps work things out.



Gerhard Adam's picture
I don't think there's a problem talking about it, but a bit of self-editing (and possibly smaller chunks that you've put into a logical order) might be more appropriate. 

"Stream of consciousness" can be a good way to get ideas on paper, but it isn't the way you want to present ideas.

rholley's picture
In regards to the first comment . . . I am not college educated in the way that most on this site are. . . . unless you are  ivy league you should not be thinking. We need to encourage more thought and help people develop their thinking not dissuade them by insulting them.

Insulting was in no way my intention.  What I was reacting against was an implied idea that we have inherited from our 19th century ancestors (yes, in Britain at least we are descended from Victorians!).  That century produced a plethora of people who regarded themselves as Prophets of the New Way, and proclaimed that all before them was a Time of Ignorance.  One of these was Auguste Comte (and here I am quoting Wikipedia)
One universal law that Comte saw at work in all sciences he called the 'law of three phases'. It is by his statement of this law that he is best known in the English-speaking world; namely, that society has gone through three phases: Theological, Metaphysical, and Scientific.[4] To the last of these he also gave the name "Positive," because of the polysemous connotations of that word.

One reason I do not make up my own words to describe things is that I tend to find my own words rather tedious.  At school, I was never much good at exercises of the type "Express what so-and-so is saying in your own words."  Usually the author's words were so much clearer than anything I could say, so what was the point?

As for mathematics and language, now that is something that can really get me going.  But that, as Shahrazad (wka Scheherezade) would say, is another story.

Diminishing View's picture
Haha, yeah ok I'll accept that. I'm attepmting to veer from that way of thinking aparhently unsuccessfully so far.  Yeah, it seems to all stem from the type of enlightenment thinking that has veined itself through history. The idea that the knowledgable few should dictate how everyone else lives and produce a utopia. I hope to design not a utopian system but to analyze how society can structure itself more efficiently through conscious application at all levels than merely at the top. Hey, its worth a shot right? Yeah language and math don't mix which is why I didn't really go that way, but I have been kindof dipping my toes into metaphysics some what unintentionaly. Sorry about that.

logicman's picture
This blog and discussion is very informative.

I would like to contribute what follows to the discussion.
Taking the last point raised first: 'language and math don't mix.'

Language - meaning spoken/written/human language - is more properly defined by the linguistic term natural language.  Natural language and math are but two of many ways by which an arbitrary sign is assigned to an idea, that it may be conveyed from one mind to another.  A mathematical formulation of whatever simplicity or complexity can only be explained - to one who does not grasp the idea behind the formulation - by using human language.  Human language is the metalanguage used to describe and define math.  There appears to be a circularity, since math claims to be the metalanguage with which we describe human language, but I am sure that our ancestors must have been using language long before they invented the term 'number'.  Some time after this, they must have used natural language as a metalanguage for the abstraction of number terms and manipulations into the formalism that eventually became known as mathematics.  (Caveat: I am not a mathematician. This is not intended as an attack on established mathematical theories, but I have nevertheless taken the precaution of retiring to a deep bunker.)

The English language was evolved at a time when religion was essentially unquestioned and therefore by a mindset that fits this view of reality.

The English language has its roots firmly in the languages of people who came from places other than Britain.  Those who came as conquerors, most notably William no doubt imposed their own language/world-view on others.  But what of the refugees?  Is it not reasonable that a gradual influx of people in ones, twos and families must have had some effect on the host language.  I would cite the influence that the Pilgrim Fathers continue to have on the American-English language.  Many of the language mavens who decry the influence of Americanisms on England's  Glorious Mother Tongue simply do not know that England is simply re-importing an older English-English terminology and orthography.

A stronger argument against your thesis: Britain suffered multiple attacks, invasions and settlements of Vikings.  There is no hint of evidence that any British group ever adopted notions related to Thor and Valhalla.  Most particularly, it should be noted that the invading Normans of 1066 fame were themselves the descendents of Viking invaders.

The language forces definition and lacks the subtlety that pervades reality.

Reality may be defined as 'everything to which we may assign a word, a phrase, a subject-predicate sentence or an explanation.  If we don't have the 'subtlety' of language required to describe (read: label) some thing then it may as well not exist.  'We do not have the subtlety of language which would be required to describe God.'  'Agreed! - Next topic, please.'
This book has no meaning in the objective world. These words and letters have no meaning objectively. The meaning comes as you interpret these lines and shapes as written language, then as composite words and sentences that take on a whole other meaning when put together

Now, here I can and must agree.  :)

A written symbol is but a mark on a surface.  Speech is puffs of air.  Language does not have meaning, it is a carrier of meaning.   Meaning is whatever causes the flash of neurons which triggers a eurika response somewhere in the brain.

Gerhard Adam's picture

"There is no hint of evidence that any British group ever adopted notions related to Thor and Valhalla."

I might be wrong, but the Saxons certainly had those beliefs, and clearly we can see the evidence of some influence in our days of the week (Wednesday = Wodin's Day, Thursday = Thor's day, etc.).  This would suggest that it was a rather far-ranging influence in Europe.



Hank's picture
And in America.   I have a "What Would Thor Do?"   bumper sticker on my car.  It's an excellent rationalization for taking a hammer to things that bother me.

Gerhard Adam's picture
That adds a whole new perspective to the "get a bigger hammer" viewpoint.

logicman's picture
an excellent rationalization for taking a hammer to things that bother me.

I never feel the urge to indulge in rationalising my use of the universal problem solving tool.

logicman's picture
the Saxons certainly had those beliefs, and clearly we can see the evidence of some influence in our days of the week

There are quite a few more examples of names with origins in mythology - British place-names, constellations, etc.   Placenames got adopted as surnames - e.g. my own surname which is presumed to come from from 'Loki', a mischevious Norse god + 'byre' = 'a field'. 

But 1066 imposed a whole new language on Britain.  Gradually, the mythic/religeous origins of these old words were forgotten - the human brain seems not to have a built-in etymological or toponymous function.  A word is just a useful noise or label.  I see your 'Punxsutawney' and I raise you one 'Ramsbottom'.
Punks nil, Rams nil.  :)

Gerhard Adam's picture
"Reality may be defined as 'everything to which we may assign a word, a phrase, a subject-predicate sentence or an explanation.  If we don't have the 'subtlety' of language required to describe (read: label) some thing then it may as well not exist."

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs with your statement, but this should also include expression in mathematics.  This is precisely where the issue of interpretations of quantum physics come into play because there aren't any good words to describe what exists, yet nevertheless it does.  In particular, one of the points in the Copenhagen interpretation was precisely the avoidance of trying to invent new words for some of the phenomenon because it would "muddy the water" by making the strangeness suddenly seem comprehensible (by creating the illusion that new words somehow conveyed more meaning than the original concepts).

Stellare's picture
You are both courageous and lucky. Courageous because you publish your "stream of consciousness" and lucky because you have all these intelligent people commenting on it in a very constructive way. :-)

Religion is humanities way of protecting itself against itself; science is humanities way of protecting itself against nature.

Though I agree that religion can be viewed as a way of organizing humans in order to protect them against themselves, religion is, in my opinion, first and foremost a ruling tool for those who hunger for power; exploiting shamelessly our natural fear of the unknown. As a species the humans establish hierarchy, an order, and some of the clever ones invented religion to get a head of the rest of the flock. A great success with some unfortunate side effects, I might add.

Science is not about protecting ourselves from nature, but understanding nature - or the unknown. We can apply science for many purposes, including protecting ourselves.




Hank's picture
You are both courageous and lucky. Courageous because you publish your "stream of consciousness" and lucky because you have all these intelligent people commenting on it in a very constructive way. :-)

I think it just comes down to tone.   Georg finally banned that Kevin guy, not because he had wild ideas but rather because he had wild ideas and said everyone who disagreed was simply wrong.    But if people mean well and just want to have discussions, we allow most anything, there just has to be some thought to it.

Stellare's picture
Not only tone, but consciousness of what you are doing. This post starts with a warning letting us know that she knows that her writing is 'incomplete' and sort of an experiment. :-) It is also possible to comment on parts of the post, and skip those one find not to carry any obvious meaning.

The value in this case, I find particularly in the comments.

The Kevin guy did not allow any meaningful comments at all, throwing new axioms all over the place. :-)

logicman's picture
Gerhard: I've jumped 'our' link down here, hoping to make the flow of these comments more readable.

the illusion that new words somehow conveyed more meaning than the original concepts

I take your point.  I phrase this as 'labels don't solve problems', a parallel concept.  My favourite example is the philosopher in a sinking boat who thinks it sufficient to write the word 'hole' next to the problem area.  But it is a notorious fact that labels can cause problems - stereotyping is but one example.  In the realm of physics, terms like spin, up, down, strangeness and charm are so far removed from their everyday use that they are, effectively, meaningless to all but a few specialists.

Delian:  I hope these comments are helping you to focus.  By the way if you tidy up your 'stream of consciousness' writing, I am sure you will end up with something more worth reading, by which I mean that for me, it is already worth reading. :)

Gerhard Adam's picture
Exactly, which also carries with it the problem, that the non-specialist may think that they understand the meaning because it "seems to make sense".  This is what I often perceive the problem to be in biology where words like "random", "mutation", "survival of the fittest" etc. are used and may lead the non-specialist into thinking that they understand more about the underlying processes than they do.  As a result, they reach a conclusion that such a thing could never have reasonably happened, so they tend to argue from a perspective that no one ever believed to begin with .... a "ghost" argument.

logicman's picture
a perspective that no one ever believed to begin with .... a "ghost" argument.

A 'ghost man' argument as contrastive with a 'straw man' argument.  I like that idea.
Let's see if I truly grasp your meaning.
ID supporter: "I can't believe that humans descended from the apes."
USA Evolutionary theorist: "Me either."
UK ditto: "Me neither."

I see biological evolution as a parallel to a geological process: the constant drip that wears away at a hill until it becomes a valley.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Yes, that's it exactly.  On the biological evolution front, I think that we tend to forget that it occurs at multiple levels simultaneously and we're often too infatuated with the external manifestation of a change instead of looking at more fundamental levels.


Diminishing View's picture
Wow, this is generating a lot of interest thats awsome. I'll jump back in here. I don't actually think that evolution of species is quite that parellel to erosion, though I do like the point, especially in the context of Gerhards comment. The difference as I see it is in what is now being called emergent complexity. Erosion is entropy taking its general course, breaking things down to a more uniform degree (as in the sediment that has been washed down the river). What is significant about life is that its takes entropy and creates order. This is not done instantly but over great spans of time taking "free energy" from outside its particular system and using it to build order and complexity, this adds more entropy to the system than order that is created, but life becomes more and more complex as certain things survive. A higher order is created but it requires more sustanance, it consumes more and adds more entropy. I think in the loose terms that we want to use for analogy it is more like a snowball rolling down a hill growing as it desends using the "free energy" of gravity to build up and creating more complexity than the previous state of uniform snow blanketing the ground. 

logicman's picture
My intent was to show a parallel in timescales.  People sometimes object to evolutionary theories because they just don't get the geological timescales.  In the long term, a slow dripping of water can have major geological effects.  In the short term, the human scale of things, it won't even affect your water bill.  It is said that you can't empty a lake with a teaspoon, but nature excels at this sort of thing.

I like the entropy model of life.  That's what life is, that's what life does, it actively increases its own structure at the expense of increasing the chaos in its environment -  by eroding rocks, or by demolishing large structures for the sake of a few building blocks .   Of late, we humans seem to have become increasingly adept at these things.

briantaylor's picture

"The English language was evolved at a time when religion was essentially unquestioned and therefore by a mindset that fits this view of reality. The language forces definition and lacks the subtlety that pervades reality. This is why math is the language of science. Unknown variables, spectrums and approximations are well defined and understood operators in mathematics."


They are in language too, although crippled by the limitations of English. I agree there are much more subtle, exacting languages on planet Earth. English, for all its shameful barbarism, is capable of subtlety in context or subtext.
 For eg: "I believe in God because of the specificities of the requirements of existence, as I understand them."
This statement has provided the knower with the following "subtle" info: 1. I have no proof of God. 2. I'll accept theoretical proof. 3. The reason I'll accept theoretical proof is based in fact. (It's not presented as a "belief.") 4. That "fact" is that there are specific requirements to existing which I find exacting enough to warrant some level of "devine" intention. (While remaining undefined and with even the further leverage of "as I understand them.") Please appreciate this list is vastly incomplete, we are discarding: the actual science to which we refer the definition of the requirements and the secondary belief in the accuracy of OUR definition of "exacting enough to warrant.. devine intention." Which in and of itself demands definition, etc, ad nauseum. (The proof has a finite end, it's the beginning that's the problem.) As you can see, words, be they any language form the ideas that require defining and they stack up quickly. 
 
 "I believe in God because of the specificities of the requirements of existence, as I understand them."
 I think such a sentence, left uttered in a moment, says nearly nothing. Those delving further should do so utilizing logic to whatever peril they deserve! The subtlety is there, impossibly sussed out in formulae by those who can. Let's call them, Thinkers. (I think this was touched upon in the form of Gerhards' subtext on "expertise.")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 To cut to the chase: this was a beautiful conversation to read. To be honest, already familiar with the work of Delian, I started reading the comments before I read the article. Then I read the article and have only two comments to make about it. The above quote and response is the first and the second is:


"You are both courageous and lucky. Courageous because you publish your "stream of consciousness" and lucky because you have all these intelligent people commenting on it in a very constructive way. :-)"


 I agree on both counts and therein lies the beauty of this site. Kudos to you Delian for presenting parts of your journey to understanding, unedited and therefore un-censored. (Wm. Burroughs.) I have had my crack at that before with limited results. And my story, Delian, is similar to yours in that we both must constantly play catch-up with these brilliant minds we have chosen to use as sounding boards. Our main difference being that we are on different paths to the same conclusion. Amongst other differences my path subscribes to laborious rewriting. See everything above that line up there ^? It was re-read and re-read and re-read. Everything below the line was only re-read. (and then re-read) Sometimes when I'm here I'll write for hours and then throw it all away. My grandfather told me once, "never write down anything you would mind just anyone knowing." Perhaps I'm meek. (I am Canadian.) 


 Thank you Scientists for being constructive (although I enjoy the subtle piss-taking.) Kudos to those who actually engage and double kudos (Dudos!) to those that encourage! 

 I keep figuring things out on my own to later discover that it's called "X" and was figured out by "W" during "Z." It's not as disheatening as writing a book that has already been published. Can it be the 99 other monkeys? Or is it that everyone, so inclined, goes through these revelations? I think the true test is the originality of the idea, leaving the origin irrelevant. Therefore: If you have a new idea that stands up to scrutiny, it's worth something regardless of it's source.

Therefore: anyone can discover.

Please keep discovering.

B



  



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