Track your comments!
[x]


When you register, comments on your articles and replies to your comments appear here. Register Now!

Sign in to your account
[x]

Not a Scientific Blogging member yet?

Register Now for a Free Scientificblogging.com Account

  • Customize your profile with pictures, banner, a blogroll and more.
  • Leave comments on articles, add other members to your friend lists, chat with people on the site.
  • Write blog posts that can be seen by hundreds of thousands of readers.

It's free and it only takes a minute!

Already a Scientific Blogging member?

Sign In Now

Banner
By Michael White | March 20th 2009 09:55 AM | 8 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
.

More Adaptive Complexity articles

All

About Michael White

Welcome to Adaptive Complexity, where I write about genomics, systems biology, evolution, and the connection between science and literature, government, and society.

I'm a biochemist


... Full Bio

Two guest writers on Olivia Judson's blog offer an interesting idea for spending stimulus money on research:

Instead of simply funding more grants, we suggest using some of the windfall to provide an opportunity for fresh college graduates to pursue two years of research in the nation’s service while the job market is bottoming out. Call it “Research for America.” Our proposal would put young Americans to work and support science — without setting off a later bust cycle in research support, as previous funding booms have done.

They make a good point about a boom and bust cycle in research funding - if we pump a lot of stimulus money into new grants, we're funding people who are going to need more money down the road, if they're going to stay in the business. A big, temporary research stimulus right now could not be sustained. (As a side note, we didn't have to have a bust after the NIH budget doubling boom from 1998-2003 - just letting the NIH budget keep up with inflation would have solved a lot of problems.)

The authors argue that new college graduates (most of whom presumably have no long-term aspirations for a science career) could dig right into these 'shovel-ready' (sick of that term yet?) projects:

Is there a better approach to funding research than this Malthusian boom-and-bust cycle? We think so. Modern research requires intelligence and drive, but people without long-term aspirations to become scientists could do much of the hands-on work. New college graduates could enter the laboratory workforce for just a few years, which would allow more research to be done under existing grant support without creating future obligations.

The problem is, I don't think this will work. Research is not only intellectually demanding; it takes physical skill - wet lab work is like gourment cooking, but with much, much smaller error margins. You don't bring an untrained intern in to do the work of a chef at a 5-star restaurant; you have them chop carrots and shell shrimp. But in many labs, you don't really have the lab equivalent of carrot chopping - much of the lab work takes training. And in general, fresh college graduates suck up a lot of time when they're being trained to work in the lab. That's a good thing when it comes to training future scientists; someone did it for me, and I'm happy to do it for others. It's a great system of training, but it's a horrible way of being productive.

Most of the research that gets published is done by individual graduate students and postdocs - people who are strongly motivated and well-trained, trained enough to, with some guidance, do the physical lab work and intellectually direct the project. Most research just can't be farmed out to interns - I achieve much more when I do my own work (or work with another experienced scientist) than I do when I'm directing someone inexperienced. Bringing in large numbers of untrained, short-term, fresh college graduates to do lab work will turn a professional research lab into summer camp.

If the goal is teaching and training, that's great, let's do it. But if the goal is productive research, this is the wrong way to go.

Comments

Hank's picture
Funding agencies have to take their guidance from the administration and the administration says these have to be a stimulus - or at least some of it (condoms and abortion counselling wouldn't seem to be a shovel-ready stimulus thing, though it's 2X as much as any bonuses AIG gave out in their stimulus package) but it could actually be worse than that, because this thinking is endemic.

Zerhouni navigated some treacherous waters well, and jammed through open access, but he also had the idea to have mandatory quotas for young scientist funding; meaning young researchers who get their first grant under a quota system but then have to compete effectively have their careers over if they do not make that 10% that gets funded.    That will be worse for the future of science, I fear.

I could be wrong, of course.  At every company I was ever at, I did an impact analysis for every big decision and I assume a lot of smart folks at the NIH did the same thing and this came out positive, but it concerns me as much as a funding bubble does.

P.S.   Your stuff is different than what they probably mean with a stimulus anyway.   Would a lot of other less experience-intensive science projects not benefit from some cheap, temporary labor?   A 5-star restaurant can't have an intern chef but McDonald's can.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
I don't think Zerhouni's focus on younger investigators is a bad thing - it's not setting up younger investigators for later failure. The grant review system, as it is, inherently favors senior investigators. To get a grant, you have convince your reviewers not just that your proposed project can be done, but that YOU can do it. Senior investigators with a long track record and a fully-staffed lab can simply point to their long published record of success; new young investigators who are just starting to recruit graduate students and get new projects off the ground don't have that, and they get penalized for it in the review process. It's much better to have a separate category for new scientists.

When I applied for postdoctoral funding, I was ultimately successful, but my proposal was penalized for the fact that my faculty advisor (who was new) had never trained postdocs before, and for the fact that no graduate students had yet graduated from his lab. To get experience, you have to have funding, but in order to get that funding, you have to have experience. New investigators need some slack.

Funding is still competitive; only the best proposals will win out, even among new investigators. If they get that first grant under the quota system, they will have a much better chance of getting later grants, because they'll have the money to get their labs up and running, building a track record when it's time to apply for the second grant. Zerhouni did a good thing.


As far as stimulus-relevant projects, you're right that NIH has to follow administration guidance and focus this money on the short term.  I think there is a lot to do out there without having to recruit fresh college grads. There are projects ready to go, only waiting for funding. That money will be spent quickly, purchasing millions of dollars of supplies from lab supply companies, as well as on salaries of people who make below-median incomes, which means they're more likely to spend the additional income instead of saving it. 

The NIH has set up a short-term system of 'challenge grants' - non-renewable funding for 2-3 year projects. A lot of pilot projects, ready to go now, and which will lay the basis for longer-term research, can be funded by this. So I think the NIH is doing a reasonable job of targeting the stimulus funds to short-term work, as opposed to pretending that this is a long-term budget boost. But in future budget cycles, the scientific community needs to look more a long term, sustainable budgeting.


Most research just can't be farmed out to interns - I achieve much more when I do my own work (or work with another experienced scientist) than I do when I'm directing someone inexperienced.

But it's such a rewarding experience, right? And when that inexperienced student grows up, becomes a real scientist, and wins the Nobel Prize (which will happen, of course), you'll be so proud and say "Yup, I was the first to train her!"

Love,
Your Undergraduate

adaptivecomplexity's picture
It's definitely a rewarding experience, especially when you work with talented, motivated undergrads (I had a feeling that you would read this post!) - training future scientists is an important part of what we do.  Anyone who doesn't want to do that shouldn't be in academia. 

I'm lucky that I'm working with someone smart and motivated right now - I've had to deal with some really, really bad students (there was one summer nightmare back when I was in grad school), and it was a complete waste of time.


But it should be recognized for what it is - training, and not just looking for an extra pair of hands to do a mindless job. 


And besides, you're not so inexperienced anymore!





adaptivecomplexity's picture
Just to reply to my own comment...

There are typically two main problems with poor trainees in the lab - lack of motivation, and lack of minimal background knowledge (or the ability/motivation to absorb that knowledge). Students who aren't motivated never really care enough to pick up on the techniques, and they never end up functioning well in the lab.


In other cases, students come in not knowing the difference between a gene and a protein (which is definitely minimal background knowledge), which means that they end up making a lot of mistakes in the lab because they don't have even a minimal understanding of what they're doing or what the project is about.


I'm worried that a Research America program would bring in large numbers of people like that.


Hank's picture
The value of mentoring and finding great talent is underappreciated.    Max Born should have gotten a Nobel Prize for training Nobel Prize winners.  Instead he had to settle for a rather obscure one - because they didn't think he should have to share one with anyone else.  A compliment but the details of which are unknown to most so he doesn't look like the guy behind a lot.

Without him, there may be no Oppenheimer, Fermi, Heisenberg, Pauli, Teller, etc., who all worked for him (and I left off a few Nobel winners).    Finding talent is a talent, too, so maybe the rewards for mentoring scientists should be a little more in the forefront.    If researchers start competing for smart young scientists the way baseball scouts compete for players, good things will happen.  It just means we have to approach science development in a business-like fashion also.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
People who have a knack for training good people (which involves, as you say, being able to spot talent, and knowing how to nurture it) are certainly important to science. They tend to be recognized for their abilities within their own community, but not necessarily by the public at large. Arnold Sommerfeld is one of those physicists who trained a generation of Nobel Prize winner. He never won the prize himself, but the physics community at the time knew that he produced outstanding physicists.
One guy to watch in biology right now is George Church. I'm a little biased of course, because my mentor came out of his lab, but Church has trained a significant number of very successful people. It's too early to tell how that will translate into Nobel Prizes.


logicman's picture
I hope you all find this relevant to what is being discussed here.

I only recently watched the movie 'A beautiful Mind' for the first time.  I wanted to know more about the facts behind the 'Hollywoodised' version of the life of John Nash.

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, I wholeheartedly recommend that you take the time to watch
Interview with Dr. John Nash , in which he answers questions about economics, teaching students and, yes, the movie.  Most notably, coming from a Nobel laureate in economics, he describes himself as an 'outsider' to the field of economics.  A beautiful mind indeed!

Add a comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <sup> <sub> <a> <em> <strong> <center> <cite> <code> <TH><ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <img> <br> <p> <blockquote> <strike> <object> <param> <embed> <del> <pre> <b> <i> <table> <tbody> <div> <tr> <td> <h1> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <iframe>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
CAPTCHA
If you register, you will never be bothered to prove you are human again. And you get a real editor toolbar to use instead of this HTML thing that wards off spam bots.