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By Michael White | January 6th 2009 10:40 PM | 66 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Michael White

Welcome to Adaptive Complexity, where I write about genomics, systems biology, evolution, and the connection between science and literature, government, and society.

I'm a biochemist


... Full Bio

If you read almost any science blog other than mine, you're probably aware of Brown University biologist Ken Miller's smackdown of Intelligent Design (ID) shill Casey Luskin, posted on Carl Zimmer's Loom: part 1, part 2, and part 3.

At issue is the tired old concept of irreducible complexity, and it's amazing that after all this time, many ID advocates don't understand what the original point of arguing irreducible complexity was. ID advocate Michael Behe, in various publications including his book Darwin's Black Box basically argued that there are molecular systems inside of cells that, even in principle could not have been produced by evolution - systems like the bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting cascade. Such systems, according to Behe, are irreducibly complex - they need all of their parts in order to function, and if you're missing any parts, you have a non-functional system. Thus, without all of the parts there is nothing functional for natural selection to act on.

In other words, the only way evolution could produce a system like the blood clotting cascade would be to have all of the relevant genes suddenly appear at one time by mutation - an event improbable to the point of impossibility (which is one thing ID advocates and evolutionary biologists agree on).

One major rebuttal to Behe's argument is that the examples of irreducible complex systems he cites aren't really irreducibly complex: evolution didn't have to produce the mammalian blood clotting cascade in one fell swoop; you can find in nature examples of clotting systems that work just fine with many fewer proteins, suggesting that, yes, it is possible to produce the mammalian blood clotting system via step by step evolution.

But here's where Casey Luskin gets confused:

Arguments about the irreducibly complex core aside (see Part 1), the entire land-dwelling vertebrate system might still be irreducibly complex, for the fact that some vertebrates lack factor XII (called Hageman Factor) in their blood-clotting cascade, or even lack the entire intrinsic pathway, in no way implies that humans (and other land-dwelling vertebrates) don't require all of these components for their blood to clot.

As Miller points out, Luskin has the argument ass-backwards. The fact that a particular clotting factor is now absolutely essential in humans does not at all prove that such a system could not have evolved. In the distant past, one of our jawless fish ancestors probably had a simple clotting system (just like lampreys today), and it's not difficult to imagine how more components could have been added to the system one by one over time.

These new blood clotting components would have been merely beneficial at first but essential later. It's not difficult for a gene to become essential with some simple rewiring, and we can find many examples in the genomes of present-day organisms. Two homologous genes can perform similar functions, which means that if one gene becomes damaged, the other can take up the slack. Over time, these two genes can specialize. That means instead of a backup copy of a key gene performing multiple functions, you have just two key genes, each fulfilling a more specialized function, with no backup copy. In fact, there is strong evidence that gene duplication and functional specialization is responsible for much of the evolution of the blood clotting cascade in vertebrates.

This is why Factor V is essential for blood clotting in humans but not in lampreys: Factor V never appeared in the evolutionary lineage leading to lampreys, so lampreys aren't bothered by its absence, while in most other vertebrates Factor V has become essential after a long period of evolutionary tweaking.

Remember, irreducible complexity was supposed to be an in principle argument against evolution - the claim was that the human blood clotting cascade could never have evolved step by step via 'intermediate'* systems with fewer components, but the fact that lampreys survive just fine with a perfectly functional intermediate system means that the in principle argument of irreducible complexity is wrong: intermediate systems are possible, and they exist in nature. The fact that humans can't survive with an intermediate system is, in spite of what Luskin thinks, irrelevant.

If ID advocates can't even get their own side's arguments straight, what does that say about their ability to coherently critique evolution?

*I'm using the term intermediate in a somewhat sloppy way - the lamprey clotting system isn't necessarily an intermediate step to anything, nor is the human clotting cascade a 'final' system.

Comments

Wow...Intelligent Design advocates also risk boring their adherents to death. ID has lost most of its appeal because its getting bogged down in its own detailed nitpicking. If the argument is complicated, ID fans, who are not bright in the first place, will stop listening. The primitive, unthinking outsider appeal was the only reason ID generated any interest in the first place.

This topic is old news. An article with better supporting evidence was written in May of 2008 and is available at the following web address. http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/05/behe-vs-lamprey.html

Hank's picture
This topic is old news. An article with better supporting evidence

The legendary diplomatic finesse pandasthumb is known for.  I can't recall the last time we spammed them with our articles.  Because it was never.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Yeah, the news is so old that Ken Miller just superfluously posted about it last week in The Loom. And yes, if the were a longer, more involved article it would be better, but this is called blogging - not every post has to be the definitive piece on the subject.

uuuhh Michael...how old is the oldest sample of Lamprey blood that you have on hand to sample?? I didn't know that you had single handedly discovered and tracked the evolutionary lineage leading to Lampreys? Amazing. At what point in it's evolutionary development did a human kidney become viable? How many "half-of a single kidney mammalians" do you think died waiting for the completed half to it's "first" kidney to be complete before the first mammalian actually survived? Why are there two kidneys? Did the second kidney begin to come along after the first one finally completed it's viable development or did it languish at half completion with the first kidney languishing?? ...this is precious stuff you are laying out there for us. Folks want to know.

Gerhard...you want to jump in here?

Gerhard Adam's picture

No point.  If the only acceptable proof is that which you can touch and feel then you're obviously prepared to toss out the majority of scientific theories and developments. 

You could conceivably argue that all of science is faulty because much of it uses mathematics to make predictions, and yet that is also a completely artificial construct which has historically included many problems and assumptions that one couldn't touch or feel. 

A short response to your position is that you completely misunderstand how systems develop and consequently evolve.  In viewing every biological structure as a singular event you're clearly misunderstanding how growth and development occur.  In truth you know your example of a kidney is simply silly since it doesn't take much imagination to see how a kidney-like function could development in an animal which then ultimately evolved to split into two entities.  There is no explanation of "half" of anything required.  In fact, it might well be argued that there may have been more than two kidney-like organs at some point and that evolution scaled them back and became more "efficient".


However, we've been around this block before, and I know you aren't really interested in an answer as much as you want to simply argue about the inadequacy of every explanation offered.  So, until you're prepared to actually spend some time seriously learning biology, there isn't much to offer.



now that is exactly the responce I was expecting...thanks Gerhard the legend still lives. I think that you are evolving into a terrific evolution advocate especially when you can by the simple wave of a hand dodge the miraculous and unexplainable. Where you are wrong is that I "am" interested in an explaination that can account for the improbable or the impossible because even if we weren't talking about a human kidney (which is small potatos compared to other more complex structures) the likelyhood of what you and others propose is even more fantastic. Come on Gerhard, everything "does" have a singular starting event...it's just that we differ "where" the starting point really is. Mathematics?...has been "proven" to work and backed up by practical if not improbable circumstance. Didn't you hear about the Japanese hitting a moving target (asteroid) in space take a sample and then return? While there are thousands of considered and then proven mathematical endeavors a similar success rate on the Biological side has not produced a single proven event. I have to give you a tip of the cap though Gerhard, you have already "raised the bar" for Hank's 2009 word list. By adding "conceivably" and the new "(fill in the applied word)-like function", is building the "World of Possibility" that is famous within the evolutionary crowd. Oh and good work keeping "could" and the hybred "may" in action for this year of hope.

...having re-read your post again Gerhard (fourth time) I missed a crucial point that I should have acknowledged but didn't and not wanting to waste a well thought out responce (yours) the truth in it was undeniable and therefor worthy of note. In your closing you did clearly say that "there isn't much to offer" via Biology unless "serious" learning is involved. Nice work...

Gerhard Adam's picture

Perry, as demonstrated by your own words, you really aren't interested in an explanation.  Your use of words like "miraculous" and "unexplainable", as well as indicating that events are "improbable" or "impossible" already indicates that you've made up your mind that something beyond science must be occurring.  Therefore there can be no explanable that will ever suffice.



However, I would suggest that you also have never actually seen an "impossible" or "miraculous" event, so to offer that as an alternative seems disingenuous.



oh contrare Gerhard...is there nothing that you have come across that was miraculous and impossible? You must have not had the privilige of teenagers living at home. Do you see everything in this World as a "matter of fact" images. I am completely open to explanations of possible scenarios defining the impossible, but your rigid grip on things that "are" impossible are equal to whittling down the square peg so that it can be forced into the round hole. You believe in "micro AND macro" evolution whereas I believe in only one of those (you guess) as possible. Does nothing that you have witnessed in this World appear to have a design to it?? Does the hand have no intended purpose other than to give an end to the forearm??..and I won't even mention the fingerprint/handprint detail. Evolutionists may have questions aplenty but do not seem to have any "wonder" at all in purposeful structure. I simply do not discount Science (ask Hank, he'll vouch for me) I love Science but it is apparent that we are viewing the same Mountain but from different vantage points.

Steve Davis's picture
Does the hand have no intended purpose other than to give an end to the forearm??..
I think that rhetorical question shows us all we need to know about Perry's grasp of the evolution process. No purpose is needed for a hand or any other organ to evolve. And who's to say what the purpose of a hand is? Shall I use mine to pick up a pen or to pick my nose? Decisions, decisions. Please make some attempt at understanding before wasting everyone's time. As Gerhard has pointed out before (he must be sick of it by now!) the same method for achieving understanding that gave us the technology to communicate as we are now, has been used to give us understanding of evolution. And that process of understanding is ongoing, which is what differentiates science from most established religions.  

Gerhard Adam's picture
"I am completely open to explanations of possible scenarios defining the impossible, but your rigid grip on things that "are" impossible are equal to whittling down the square peg so that it can be forced into the round hole. "

Sorry, but that viewpoint isn't even rational.  You cannot accept "impossible" as an explanation, since by definition it can't occur.  That's what "impossible" means.

If you are prone to interpreting possible events as "impossible" ones then the problem is self-evident.

Gerhard Adam's picture
"Does nothing that you have witnessed in this World appear to have a design to it?? "

This perspective is simply a variation of Anthropomorphism by assigning significance to the universe only in terms of a design or purpose to enhance human existence.

However, another concept known as the Anthropic Principle, argues that the universe can only look the way it does, since it was those circumstances that could give rise to evolve creatures that would see it as being specifically designed for their existence. 

You may well view the world this way, but don't suggest for a moment that my view must somehow be stifling because I insist that there must be explanations (or facts) to give credence to my experiences.  While there may be many things that are unknown to myself, I don't believe that they are unknowable.  That is where belief in the "miraculous" leads, because I must suspend my belief that the universe can make sense to accept such a proposition.  While entertaining, it is simply a waste of time.

Well Steve...my understanding of the "evolutionary process" isn't as bad as some might think but before you take exception to my personal understanding of it you might consider trying to get many of the "evolutionary believers" to try to agree among themselves. Disagreement and dissention within your ranks is more brutal than those of us who adhere to the I/D belief. "Science" is not the end game, only the first salvo. Unless it leads to a repeatable and provable test, then all that has really been accomplished is another failure or dead end, whereupon the gaunlet is picked back up and the process begins again. Your missive about the purpose of the hand is poetic and wonderful...and stupid. If you didn't have them you would pretty much be limited to going up and down in an elevator...need I elaborate? I am not wasting anyones time here any more than you just did. I like Gerhard and we have discussed things between us before but we don't do it for a living...it's just a hobby.

Ok Gerhard...maybe it's the cake I ate a little while ago with a sugar buzz, but your first post is baffling to me (if I may use the word Hank). I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you but it's a mystery to me to be honest. I think you may have "got" me with that one, I just don't know. Your second post is more helpful in that there is an easier prose to follow. Of course you neglected to answer the question completely which is understandable but at least I can follow what you "are" saying. Why would I suggest that your "view" of the World is stifling?, thats a dodge even for you, and insisting that there be an explanation for "everything" is unrealistic and who would have the time to learn it all as we only have about 50 years of opportunity to learn anything substantive. Antropomorphism?? that's nice...While the Universe is amazing and too big to consider...it's the perfect conditions here on Earth that are significant. Ever heard of the 1% rule?? Steve thinks I'm wasting everyone's time, and of course we have had a round or two among the peers here..no harm done. But just as you and Steve and Michael would have me shut up and go away without making a comment then the struggle to learn and be informed is deminished. Hank doesn't mind that I come in and prick your balloons a little. Now consider the hand Gerhard...no purposeful design?...

Hank's picture
Ok Gerhard...maybe it's the cake I ate a little while ago with a sugar buzz, but your first post is baffling to me (if I may use the word Hank).

We first started doing this sort of thing as an inside joke here, mostly with Ryan Gregory's article on translating scientific jargon.   So if you're reading some otherwise generic news article and it has one of those statements like "It has long been known" or "More study is needed"  and it is in blue and underlined, it means we are linking to his article because someone used a scientific sucker phrase.  Now I do it to myself with words like baffled.

Basically, if you click on it, you have been Rickrolled,except scientifically.  I just need to make a video for it.

Rick Astley scientificblogging.com rickrolling

Steve Davis's picture

Disagreement and dissention within your ranks is more brutal than those of us who adhere to the I/D belief.
That's how scientific knowledge progresses Perry. If you love science as you claim, it must be a love for the baubles and gadgets only, not a love (or respect) for the reasonong behind the scientific method.
Now consider the hand Gerhard...no purposeful design?..
You're still missing the point. There is no purpose behind natural selection.



...dude your a trip... ;=) I like it here.

Gerhard Adam's picture

Perry, the problem is really quite simple.  When an event occurs, we cannot consider it "impossible".  While it might seem like it has a low probability, it nevertheless has a finite probability of occurring.  Therefore, science attempts to find an explanation of what occurred.  Your requirement that something can only be accepted after it has been unequivocally proven is incorrect.  There are many times when a theory may be derived by intuition after which it may take decades or even centuries before an experiment can be constructed that can "prove" anything.  (Explore the history and evolution of mathematics just as an example).

However, science isn't simply about proof, but it also pertinent that evidence can accrue that supports a particular theory, so that it has usefulness even if it isn't complete (by the way, don't attribute that as a comment to evolution, I mean this generically).

When something requires a miracle or is considered "impossible", then all further inquiry is stifled, since the presumption is that no explanation can ever be found since, by definition, the event is outside the realm of knowledge.  However, I contend that any event that can occur, regardless of how implausible or improbable it seems, must have an explanation since the event DID occur.


The problem with ID, is that it takes the position that evolution, as currently defined, is improbable (if not impossible) because of its apparent purposefulness.  So the proposed solution is to introduce an even more incredible explanation by rationalizing supernatural intervention as the only explanation.

The difficulty with this is that the explanation cuts off any further exploration because the event being investigated is considered inexplicable (since it couldn't occur within any of the laws of nature) and renders the answer beyond reproach because the proposed cause is beyond questioning.  However, when examined from a historical perspective we find that this is precisely the position that has been repeatedly adopted only to discover later that there really was an explanation. 

As a result I have concluded that science takes the position of seeking explanations for all observable events and to develop theories to explain how the world works.  The religious view is content to stop the investigation by rendering the question unknowable.

"Now consider the hand Gerhard...no purposeful design?.."

Steve is absolutely right, you're missing the point.  You're suggesting that there is a purposeful design to the hand that is uniquely human instead of seeing that the hand is simply one variation of multiple possibilities to which human's would have adapted if they had occurred.  The general structure can be observed from the fins of dolphins to the hooves of horses.  The hand appears purposeful because that's how it turned out.  I suspect that if you could hold the conversation, dolphins could make a compelling case as to why their particular adaptation was designed just for them.  This is an incorrect view because it is a mechanistic view of evolution that implies a "design" approach so that everything that exists was preplanned instead of understanding that what exists is because a particular adaptation was successful.
We do have the example of observing people that were born without hands, or have lost them and it is seen that they have adapted to use feet (or their mouths) to perform similar actions as they would with hands.  Are we to conclude that the feet have this as part of their intrinsic design? 

"If you didn't have them you would pretty much be limited to going up and down in an elevator...need I elaborate?"

Perhaps you should have elaborated because this statement can be proven to be unequivocally wrong.

As for the statement about the "perfect conditions on Earth" .... that is precisely what the Anthropic principle addresses, since it states that it is precisely those conditions that would give rise to a species capable of asking the question.

In conclusion, as for "disagreement and dissent" .... please .... what possible difference does any degree of disagreement make?  Regardless of how vehemently scientists may disagree that does NOT automatically translate into acceptance of your view.  Up to this point, your position has been one of criticism only.  I suspect it isn't coincidental that you also provide no explanation with the necessary proofs you think are owed by biology.



Stellare's picture
What's wrong with scientific methods? I love scientific methods. Mathematics included. Stick to logic and we'll all be fine. No need to invent reality. It is fantastic, in fact more fantastic than any religion or sci-fi movie could possibly invent.

Just because we cannot explain a phenomena with science, it doesn't mean there is a God or some other human invention. For instance, you cannot deduce the existence of God (or ID) just because you don't understand evolution. Simple science.

True love of science implies love of scientific methods. ;-)

Gerhard...what you should have said is that "your view" of the problem is quite simple. As I have mentioned before here in this forum, in deference to Hank, I try to keep my posts as brief as possible as not to belabor any particular point to much so at times my prose is clipped and not laden with the kind of detail that could consume space that many would not even bother to read to the end. That being said I again will be as brief as possible...I have to, the wife keeps looking in here when she walks by...
I appreciate your detailed explanation of what you meant with the convoluted nature of your previous post. You have taken "impossible" that I had said and used it with an "occurance" when the intent of it's usage was tied to the "pathway" leading to an occurance, not the occurance itself. The goal of the "evolutionist" is to keep a proverbial "foot in the door" by careful use of certain terms, pretty much used by you and others. In your case this well thought out missive "probability" is initially used (foot in the door) tied with the word "low" as not to sound too dogmatic. You were not through with "probability" yet as you needed to strengthen your position further by using it again only this time "nearly" admitting something "impossible" but not quite because now "finite" has replaced "low". Endless and extensive amounts of time is the most common crutch to explain how something "impossible" could be "probable" so long as sufficient time is allowed and sold. An Aircraft Carrier is something real, it's not probable but tangable, no doubt it is real...the Colorado river that flows a stones throw from my house is something real, it's not probable but tangable, no doubt it is real...this would coinside with your initial view of an occurance, where we part company is you think that this same Aircraft Carrier could possibly traverse the Colorado River somehow but the honest truth is that it is simply impossible and it wouldn't take a Scientist to understand that. Now there might be a Scientist that would be willing to spend his entire career trying to get the Aircraft Carrier down the Colorado but pretty much everyone else will stand and watch his effort but not believe his premise. But now comes the rescuer..another Scientist that has a huge Gold Dredge and simply plows out everthing in the river that would make it impossible for the Aircraft Carrier to move can now float freely up against the current over Loveland Pass and then steam down all the way to the Pacific. Now I know this all is rather silly but you look at this analogy and you know "exactly" what I mean by it. The point in regards to the "hand" that you and Steve insist I am missing, is not being missed, anyone reasonable person who would consider my question would have little trouble answering a simple...straightforward question. But we both know why you and Steve will not answer it truthfully, you attempt to misdirect the issue and infer that I am the one who is resistive. I see you want me to elaborate about missing hands...ok...certainly Steve is correct that he will no longer be able to pick his nose, and your Saturday evening date will no longer exist...sadly, but where would you be willing to stop your "probable" multiple "possibilities" of a finished structure?...the shoulder, the waist? I read an account of an evolutionary Scientist that proposed that whales are part of the "bovine" family who left the land and adapted to the deep Ocean. You think my stuff is crazy...try that one on. I won't respond with the obvious but it's laughable...but...I suppose there "IS" a finite possibility I guess.

It is a known fact that those in the Biology Dept are a mostly Godless bunch. Now I also know that there are exceptions to this fact, and based on our exchanges it is safe to say that you also stand with the Godless in the Biology Dept...is it any wonder that special creation is hated and labeled as "Fairy Tales". What choice do they have?

Here's a question for you and Steve and the Bente chick...is it possible that there exists a proven qualified Scientist who also believes in Creation and is outstanding in his/her chosen field of study who also uses acceptable scientific methods?? As for "deducing" the existence of God, you experience that problem Bente simply because you don't understand God...simple truth. Stick to logic?? I bet you don't have teenagers at home either do you?

In conclusion evolutionary Scientists who bicker and discount and discredit each others labors of love prove only that few among the ranks agree on much, whereas similarly accredited Scientists who believe in Intellegent Design, that may fail or reach dead ends in their study still all agree that there is a Creator. That's the point you are missing.
Sorry Hank, I think I went over...

Gerhard Adam's picture

Sorry, Perry but you can twist and turn all you like, but in the end there is a difference between the "impossible" and something that is simply of low or finite probability.  Using an even simpler example, a Royal Flush is a low probability event, but five aces is an impossible one (for a single deck game).  Also, your charge that evolutionists "careful use of certain terms" is some sort of ploy.  In case you haven't noticed, words do mean something and they should be used with care.  In one post you used the words "impossible" and "miraculous" for events that clearly weren't. 

So while you can introduce all manner of fantastic explanations, the simple reality is that a low probability event has a possibility of occurring especially if the timeframe is long enough.  (In other words, you would be virtually guaranteed to win the lottery given enough time).

However, despite your claims that everyone is evading the discussion, the reality is that you invoke God as if that's some kind of answer.  I understand the nature of faith and the role it may play in a person's life, but I am not prepared to simply roll over and grant a free pass, as if this were some sort of proof of anything.

An individual's belief or disbelief shouldn't enter into it, so when you suggest that biology is full of godless individuals, you're suggesting that it is only with a belief that we can understand the world.  This is patently false since belief has nothing to do with fact.  If you could produce one scintilla of evidence that the world operates according to your view then the information would be independent of your personal beliefs, but that can't be done (or you've intentionally neglected to provide it).

Despite evidence to the contrary you still can't understand that the fact that individuals born without hands or arms provide ample evidence about the adaptability (not in an evolutionary sense) of people (and animals).  This clearly indicates that a living organism does the best is can with what it is provided. 
In addition, we've already been around the argument that ID also requires that bacteria and all the other things that can kill us must also have been designed.  But that part I find disingenuous is that if you got an infection, you'd probably want to be treated by an antibiotic that was developed with the concept of evolving bacterial strains in mind.

Not sure what your reference to teenagers is, but in truth I've raised five of them (the youngest is now 25). 

But enough of this.  If you have evidence that is counter to biological theory, then please feel free to present it.  At present, you've offered nothing except poking fun at biological theories.  While you may find this entertaining,  the absence of your own position is becoming a bit obvious.  If you're only going to advance red herring arguments or invoke a supernatural explanation, then you already know where that will lead because it is no explanation. 


However, I will state that for a religious person, I find your attitude in terms of ridiculing what you don't understand, showing disrespect, and generally being a wise-guy all too common in those of the "faith".



Ok.... I prefer to "poke fun" in preference to how I've seen it done by others who have come through, and congratulations on raising 5 kids all through the teenage years and I mean that sincerely. Having a number of kids affects your outlook on life and patience level far beyond folks who haven't had the privelige. I've never taken you as being a overtly sensitive guy but I am beginning to wonder. You have intoned to me more times than I can count that "I just don't get it or I missed the point, or I don't understand"...so respectful don't you think? My last post certainly was clear enough by what I meant by "impossible", and you insisting that I don't understand while ignoring a simple question posed to you confirms the patented history of someone deeply entrenched in the "Religion" of evolution. You also confirmed my observation of the evolutionary "need" for endless periods of time...win the Lotto??...currently the odds of having the winning ticket in Colorado is: 197,000,000 to 1, so I guess that considering the famous line from the movie "Dumb and Dummer", "so you think I still have a chance" ( and that was a Million to one in that case) is viable?? Getting hit by lightning 50 times is more likely, or getting attacked by a Great White Shark in your bathtub close.

Gerhard...1) do you believe in God? am I wrong?
2) Is there a qualified, credited Scientist outstanding in his field of study that can believe in a Creator
3) does bacteria kill all people in every sense
4) are there designer drugs?
5) can you explain how the sheeth of the Woodpeckers tongue came to be via an evolutionary model?
6) can you explain our body's ability to heal itself?
5) there are at least 50 purposeful items that must all be working simultaneously for the eye to function
how can this happen via evolution? double the challenge with stereo vision
6) how a woman can put a size 7 foot in a size 5 shoe...a true miracle.
The mysteries and miraculous things clearly witnessed in Nature can be studied to anyones content but until the answer is clearly discerned I/D makes more literal sense than "endless" possibilities.

Gerhard Adam's picture

Only if one is prepared to total suspend belief and invoke the supernatural.

The point you keep missing is that regardless of how improbable something may seem, the fact that it occurred (like the eye) indicates that there must be some possibility of it occurring.  I am not prepared to throw up my hands and say that "magic" is the only way.

Regardless of how the IDers want to phrase it, that's what it is in the end.  A total suspension of reality and a supernatural operation completely outside the "laws" of nature. 

As for my beliefs, I'll concede that I am not a believer (in the Christian sense), but I know many people that are, but only a handful that live according to those beliefs.  I will also admit that I have beliefs that would never stand the scrutiny of scientific inquiry, but that isn't the purpose of my beliefs.  They are not, and never were intended to reflect scientific truths, but only to provide a framework with which I personally engage with the world and to help me deal with the events that confront everyone.

I don't find a contradiction with scientists that have personal beliefs (religious or otherwise), just as I indicated my own views in the previous paragraph.  However, a scientist that attempted to elevate their beliefs to a scientific level would be subject to the scrutiny and requirements of proof as the elevation of any idea in that arena.  As I've stated repeatedly, the problem isn't with your beliefs, but rather that you expect them to be given scientific credence on nothing more than your faith.  Regardless of what you may think of evolution, it provides a framework and continuously mounting evidence in support of its fundamental principles.  While there may be aspects that are wrong, they will eventually be adjusted as new information is discovered.  Even, if by chance, a completely new theory would replace it and Darwin shown to be completely wrong, it would not negate the biological knowledge currently acquired and it certainly wouldn't automatically default into the "magical" realm. 


As for your other questions, there's no point because if I were competent to articulate every aspect of these functions then I would be venturing into some areas that may still be unknown and it would also presume that you were competent to understand the answers.  Neither of which I suspect is true.

Most of your questions are simply variations on the "irreducible complexity" argument which is seriously flawed (although I know you don't think so). 

Despite what you say regarding the "miraculous" you actually make living things mundane when you relegate their existence to the whims of a divine entity.  The sense of awe I feel when viewing biology comes from the fact that I accept that this is the way the universe works and not that we are simply the end product of some divine designer.



I give you credit Gerhard...your a thinking man, and you put together a good post. I sense that you have a fair amount of discipline as well so debating a belief system with you is enjoyable...even though you still think I'm "missing it". There is a verse in the Bible that declares that "Iron sharpens Iron"...so wrestling together with our own beliefs helps us both to work through our beliefs and why we believe.

That being said...currently there are innumerable things that are simply impossible to have occured in an evolutionary fashion. Small, minute, incremental, mutations never "add" information to a cell so that belief is a dead end. It's not magic, not hocus pocus, it's a fact. Natural selection doesn't help, it only eliminates a weaker example of an existing species. So because there doesn't exist a trackable and discernable pathway evolution lives by faith just as you say we do. Michael was working his "A-game" with declaring the previous "basis" of earlier study allows him to continue to move forward his dismissal of Intellegent Design in lieu of a belief in evolution. While there is always a "basis" to a beginning, it by no means confirms that the basis is a true one. This is a common quandary that both sides must work through. I do not articulate a magical position, I point out that the basis that you are building your future on is not as solid as you claim. Irreducible complexity may not explain everything but some things "are" explained by it. Your closing statement is something that we both can agree upon with one small caveat'...I also feel a sense of awe when I view biological things and I also accept that is how the Universe works..."because" of a Divine Designer.

Care to elaborate on how the reproduction process came to being via an evolutionary pathway??? I bet you have "some" authority with five grown kids... ;-)

Hank's picture
Care to elaborate on how the reproduction process came to being via an evolutionary pathway??? I bet you have "some" authority with five grown kids... ;-)

I would be more interested in hearing how the reproduction process could have happened in any way besides evolution.  You're telling me my testicles start in my stomach as a critter and then migrate down - which leaves the potential to give me hernias or kill me if things go wrong - and that was done by a creator who loves me??  What kind of practical joke is that?   If that's by design, it's only designed to be a big kick in the gonads.


Dang Hank...I didn't say a darn thing about your testicles (a critter??), and I know many animals migrate but your balls are not going to go too far. Besides you sissy...this all happens when you are too young to even be worried about it or remember it. But I would like your opinion about "sex"?? How many times have "you" cried out "oh God, oh God" when things get hot and heavy? Right about then you are thinking this is the greatest thing in the World...and you would be right. Try acting like you have a pair...like Gerhard does, and get out of that chair I always see you in, looking down on all of us, do something!

...you people are nuts...but Hank??...what about your testicles?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Small, minute, incremental, mutations never "add" information to a cell so that belief is a dead end

I agree, and it would be significant if that's how evolution (or mutations) occurred.  But they don't.

Most of the evolutionary process is based on the concept of "conserved processes" so that instead of each minute change resulting in some minute adaptation, the operation occurs over a much broader range.  In effect, the adaptibility is "built" into the process so that each variation doesn't require a complete reinvention from the beginning. 

While I can't do justice to the complete explanation (and not everything is known about it), an example like "wiring" the nervous system can help explain what happens.  In many people's view, there's a perception that somehow the genes determine where nerves grow and how they connect, but in fact the genetic information is much more informal.  In particular, there are nerve cells that will grow and look for connections in terminal cells which re-inforce the growth by releasing chemical signals (essentially playing a biological game of "Marco Polo").  Once the nerve connects, then this is established and other "dead-end" nerve cells that have not found a terminus will simply "commit suicide".  You can read about this phenomenon as Programmed Cell Death (PCD) and it is an example of one of those conserved processes.  In this way, the gene only needs to provide a means to wire the nervous system instead of attempting to micromanage the entire process.

It is these base processes that allow for a general "program" to be used for a wide-range of adaptations, while retaining the same underlying structure (i.e. the fin versus the hand). 

If you're really interested in this, I would recommend a book called "The Plausibility of Life" by Kirschner and Gerhart.

By a loose analogy, this is the same phenomenon that allows the development of complex computer systems, because existing functions and processes are conserved, so that when a new application is found, the entire system doesn't need to be reprogrammed from scratch.  In this way a complex system is built based on smaller specialized functions which are conserved and used in larger utilitarian ways, so that while each program individually may not be complex, collectively they produce something that would be considered virtually "impossible" to develop as a singular act.  You could apply this same concept to network design (giving rise to the internet) where each component follows simple rules and does its part, but results in a complex world-wide network that otherwise couldn't exist without these simple properties.


Gerhard Adam's picture
"currently the odds of having the winning ticket in Colorado is: 197,000,000 to 1, so I guess that considering the famous line from the movie "Dumb and Dummer", "so you think I still have a chance"

Are you suggesting that there are never any winners of the Colorado lottery? 

Michael,

You said: "The fact that a particular clotting factor is now absolutely essential in humans does not at all prove that such a system could not have evolved. In the distant past, one of our jawless fish ancestors probably had a simple clotting system (just like lampreys today), and it's not difficult to imagine how more components could have been added to the system one by one over time. "

You amply illustrate one the problems many Darwinians make when attempting to defend their position, ie, you unhesitatingly support assumptions that cannot be demonstrated. For example:

1) One of our jawless fish ancestors
2) probably had
3) it's not difficult to imagine how

So here's my feedback for you:

1) Really? WHICH jawless fish ancestor? No one I know of has ever identified who the ancestors are or were between our alleged jawless and jawed ancestors. This is widely admitted even by staunch evolutionists who work in the realm of paleontology and study the origin of various vertebrate groups.

"Since the ostracoderms were the first vertebrates, it is thought that they must have given rise to the jawed forms which succeeded them. No series of fossils has appeared,however, to testify how the transition occurred. The known ostracoderms seem to have been too specialized in their structure tohave served as ancestral stock for any of the primitive jawed fishes." - Barbara J. Stahl, Vertebrate History: Problems in Evolution, 1985, p. 45.

Oh, and just in case you think this reflects our ancient understanding... you can ready any updated version about
this from more recent sources, and if they're honest, they'll say the same thing. They offer plenty of suggestions about what critters are "thought" to be the predecessors of jawed fish, but as a matter of fact, it's still a matter of speculation and controversy to this day. So, to say that we even HAVE a jawless fish ancestor. You presume that we do, but you need to realize that you have no evidentiary basis for making this assumption. You only have conjecture. Which drives me to the next two points...

2) "probably had" is a phrase that is often used to brige imagination and evidence. The problem is, you need to realize that making the jump using this phrase is an act of faith, not evidence. To suggest that one of our jawless fish ancestors "probably had" anything (other than what fossils show us) is simply speculation on your part. Chances are pretty good they did have a clotting system, but you certainly don't know the nature of it. So, while you can speculate all you wish, you can hardly use your conjecture to demolish any other equally speculative argument.

3) "it's not difficult to imagine how " Yes, imagination comes cheap - anyone can imagine stuff, but you need to keep in mind that just because you can imagine something does not mean it actually happened. This is another assumption that I would urge you to use with caution. If imagination is the standard for accepting that evolution occurred, then you must keep in mind at all times that this too is not compelling evidence, and you should hold to it very lightly.

Kind regards.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Kevin,

Sure, if you reject all the basic evidence for evolution, you can say that my claims are unfounded. But to do this  you and all creationists generally resort to the same fallacious argument: if any one claim scientists make about evolution can't be proven independently of everything else we know about evolution, you think the claim is unfounded.

That's like expecting every quantum phenomenon to be complete and independent evidence for quantum mechanics all by itself. When physicists propose ideas about how the spectral lines from distant stars are produced, they rely on the basics of quantum mechanics, established by other lines of evidence. They don't have to reprove quantum theory every time they try to say something new about distant starlight.

Take what you call my unfounded assumption #1 for example:  our ancestors included jawless fishes a few hundred million years ago. If you reject the substantial evidence for common ancestry, then of course you're not going to believe this claim. But don't pretend that I have to somehow reprove common ancestry with every statement I make about our evolutionary past - that's not how science works. Current research generally builds on earlier ideas.

Thus, accepting common ancestry as established by other lines of evidence (which was not part of this post - this was about irreducible complexity), it's perfectly valid for me to make the claim that we can trace our ancestry back to ancient jawless fishes, based on molecular phylogenetic evidence and the fact that jawless fishes appear in the fossil record before jawed fishes.

The same is true of statements #2 and #3 - based on what we see in present-day jawless fishes and on their phylogenetic relationship to us, I can make claim #2; and based on what we know about evolution by gene duplication (and I linked to two  sources of further information), I make claim #3. It's not baselesss speculation.

You and Perry may be, for religious reasons or whatever, resistant to the basic evidence establishing the major parts of evolutionary biology, but your personal incredulity does not mean that scientists always have to re-prove all aspects of evolution every time they talk about it.

....yeh!....what Kevin said!

Gerhard...with the odds being what they are for the Lotto, are even more stacked against a winner as the odds @ 197,000,000 to 1 and that there are only about 5,000,000 people in the whole State knowing that only a small total of purchasers actually play the darn thing so the probability of a winner is an even larger number to dwarf the current odds. I do purchase a ticket from time to time with a similar hope as you hold for your "probable occurance" belief. Ya never know right?...

Gerhard Adam's picture
Unless you're claiming that no one ever wins, then the probabilities hold true.  Equally if you happen to have chosen the correct numbers, then the probabilities don't matter.  They are simply a mathematical device to assess the game. 

Having a probability of 197,000,00 to 1 doesn't mean that you have to have 196,999,999 losers before a winner shows up.

Becky Jungbauer's picture
That's why you move to D.C., where your chances of winning the lottery are great, if you believe the new ad campaign. The ads are everywhere around town and feature a fake mirror with the slogan, "Picture yourself a D.C. lottery winner. This year, there will be over 7 million. (Statistic based on tickets sold in 2007.)" If you think, hmm, the district has a residential population of about 590,000, and there will be 7 million winning tickets, my chances of having a big winning ticket are pretty good! You'd be pretty wrong.

I know your right...I think their called Congressmen and Senators and the odd Lobbist mixed in for good measure.

Ok ...you people need to get out of the house this weekend. I'm going to go to Moab and hike around in Creation. Please... someone go over and get Michael and get him in the sunlight, you do it Hank, get out of that chair your always sitting in...

Hank's picture
someone go over and get Michael and get him in the sunlight, you do it Hank, get out of that chair your always sitting in...

I'm not always sitting.   Sometimes I lay.

Note that I have both Science and Nature.  No one can accuse me of favoritism.



Becky Jungbauer's picture

You only have a bag of fritos, not any other kind of delicious corn chip. So I shall throw down and call you a corn-chip favoritist.



Hank's picture
Not true at all.  When the Steelers go all Blitzburgh on the Cleveland-Browns-In-Louder-Clothing (AKA the Ravens) this Sunday, I shall also be eating Doritos and sour cream and onion potato chips.  That's how neutral I am.
  
And I'll have one of these spectacular Pirmanti's-style sammiches:


It's okay to be jealous.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Where will you be hiking?  I've also covered a fair amount of ground in that area .... just curious.

Becky Jungbauer's picture
PoutineI am very jealous, I'm man enough (well, woman enough) to admit it. I love french fries on my sandwich. On a related note, I also love gravy and cheese on my fries - thinking of poutine makes me want to cry a little. (While I prefer the native Quebec curds with my poutine, Wisconsin squeaky cheese does in a pinch.) Speaking of Pirmanti's, I always wondered why their hot chili bowl was billed as "almost famous."

Hank's picture
I have no idea.   There was nothing famous about their chili when I lived there.  Back in the early 80s, it wasn't a small chain like it is now (or a cultural icon) - it was a tiny hole-in-the-wall sandwich place in the Strip District that opened at midnight because that's when the delivery trucks would arrive with produce and such that shops and people would buy the next day.  

So you went in there late at night and ordered a sandwich and, since you (meaning:me) were clearly not a truck driver but instead a college student, you got a piece of wax paper shoved at you with the sandwich on it accompanied by an older woman cussing at you in Greek because you tried to get it without the cabbagey stuff on it - and she had no intention of doing that.

My memories of my younger days in Pittsburgh are filled with  older women cussing at me in foreign languages.  I have never quite understood that.

rholley's picture
You lot, goin' on like as if you were gastronomes or TV chefs! It's nowt but a chip butty!

Hank's picture
We can't call it that because we're Arsenal fans!

Stellare's picture
Finally, the discussion in this thread snapped onto the right track....:-)

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Actually, I think the thread has taken a terrible turn.  I just had a measly bagel for lunch, then logged in and saw all of these comments. Now I'm starving, and we don't have cheese fries in the house. Thanks a lot.

Stellare's picture
It is not the first time those food fanatics, Hank and Becky, have turned science into food. Be prepared after your next article and fill up your fridge before you hit the 'publish' button!

good grief...I go away for a day and half and all you people can do is talk about food. Michael still has that pasty white skin and Hank in reminising about "Pittsburgh" and women who are cursing at him, which by the way you should be perfectly used to. Gerhard...went over to Moab and hiked around "Negro Bill" trail and through Arches...what a place. I didn't think about you folks one time...well...there was that "one" time, but that was it.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Beautiful canyons..  spent a couple of days up Courthouse Wash at one point and a fair amount of time at Island in the Sky.


adaptivecomplexity's picture
Michael still has that pasty white skin

We don't get nearly as much sun here during the winter as you folks do there out West. When I lived in Utah, I could really enjoy some sun in the winter!

Having said that, my bio picture makes it look worse than it really is - the sun's glare reflects quite well off my sweaty brow. It might be time for a little Photoshop magic.

Kimberly Crandell's picture
But you ARE wearing a very cool shirt.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
In fact you could airbrush me out and just leave the shirt, and the picture would be even cooler.

I think all that's required is a return trip to Utah for a few days...and why does the sleeve come down so far on your arm?? Is that you're dads shirt? ;-0

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Now you're knocking the shirt! You can't knock the shirt, or Hank will have to get involved!  It's a long-sleeve button-down shirt, rolled up at the sleeves. I'm not that small!

I would love to take a trip back to Utah. My grandparents have a great little ranch down in Monroe. The quiet out there is amazing.

jtwitten's picture
rolled up at the sleeves

It's called tjuzing the sleeves, Phillistine.

rholley's picture
It's ironic that Philistine is used as a derogatory term by cultural sophisticates, since the original Philistines were most likely at a higher cultural level than the Hebrews, for example they could work iron.

If I could get my Tardis to work, and produce a time circle between their times and ours, maybe we would find the arty types among the Philistines calling the less sophisticated Hebrews a bunch of Philistines!

jtwitten's picture
While I agree entirely with your historical approach to the unfortunate pejorative, one does have to labor under the historical baggage of the English language and Western culture in this country.

I believe you called me a cultural sophisticate.  That hardly ever happens.

Hank's picture
Great, now your avatar will be you playing rugby with a monocle and a smoking jacket.

jtwitten's picture
Pshaw, everyone knows you wear a wool overcoat to the rugby, to protect against the falling damps.

logicman's picture
I sympathise with readers who are struggling to take on board  ideas which may be well beyond their own real-world experience.  The struggle is greater when they are faced with trying to make sense of the exceedingly obscure words used by some writers.

Sometimes, the over-use of highly technical terms can render a piece of writing totally opaque to the uninitiated.   Whilst anthropocentricity is inherent in the structure, lexicon and use of human language, ethnocentricity cannot be excused in scientific writings.
When the Steelers go all Blitzburgh on the
Cleveland-Browns-In-Louder-Clothing (AKA the Ravens) this Sunday, I
shall also be eating Doritos

I rest my case.   :)

It's nice to see that nothing has changed while away...except Josh looks like he's putting on some weight.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
That's because it's rugby season - that weight is all muscle mass, or so Josh tells me.

...yes...that would figure. I see that your still wearing your "dads" shirt.. ;-)

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