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By Michael White | March 27th 2009 04:03 PM | 35 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Michael White

Welcome to Adaptive Complexity, where I write about genomics, systems biology, evolution, and the connection between science and literature, government, and society.

I'm a biochemist


... Full Bio


Creationists have put us into a bizarre, alternate universe, at least when it comes to curriculum design. Their latest attempt to undermine science education involves inserting the code words 'strengths and weaknesses' into the public school science standards. The idea is that, whenever something religious fundamentalists find controversial crops up in science class, teachers have to teach the "strengths and weaknesses" of that particular topic. Fortunately, this creationist code has just been kept out of the Texas state science standards, but you can bet the code is going to crop up again at some point.

It's worth taking a moment to think about how whacked this whole debate over strengths and weaknesses has become. Open discussion of strengths and weakness of science is a key part of any healthy scientific community. This kind of open discussion should also guide how scientists discuss their work with the public. Richard Feynman put it well:

I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend [keep in mind that Feynman was basically talking to a bunch of guys here - unfortunately, there weren't as many women at Caltech in 1974 as there should have been], or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen.

As long as it's pedagogically sound, this approach can be taken in public schools. Naturally, most of the subject matter is going to be about older, very well-established science. Discussing the weaknesses of this material is almost always going to be too difficult, because over time, the most obvious criticisms will have been dealt with; what's left is going to be about fairly advanced, subtle concepts. It's not hard to imagine how poorly a discussion of Einstein's (or John Bell's, or David Bohm's) critiques of quantum theory would go in your typical high school physics class.

The weaknesses of less-well established science can be easier to discuss (because there are more obvious weaknesses still unsolved), but this type of science is typically at the bleeding edge of today's research - stuff that might be nice to discuss, but not part of an introductory class. Discussing the weaknesses of string theory or genome-wide association studies might be a good way to teach high school students about the nature of cutting-edge science, but the problem is that students have to learn some substantial background knowledge before they can understand what string theory or genome-wide association studies are about.

Of course, the creationist 'strengths and weaknesses' code words discussed by the Texas State School Board aren't about this kind of thing. Creationists aren't interested in real scientific debates over evolution; they want to use this code language to put religiously motivated, amateur critiques into the curriculum. The Texas school board controversy over these seemingly insignificant words isn't about whether we should discuss weaknesses with high school students; it's about whether we should let unqualified members of the intelligent design PR movement put nonsensical critiques into the classroom.

When we discuss weaknesses of a science topic in high school, in any sane world we would be talking about weaknesses causing debate among the scientists themselves. If we're going to discuss weaknesses, one would think that sound curriculum design would involve including only weaknesses proposed by people who know what they're talking about. But that's not what's going on in Texas.

Let's just take one favorite example of creationists: common descent - the idea that today's living species descended from a past set of common ancestors. Biologists have concluded that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, one that lived ~6-8 million years ago, that today's mammals descended from organisms that were also the ancestors of today's reptiles, etc. etc. Most creationists can't stand this idea (especially when it comes to human evolution), and they think that so-called evidence against common descent should be presented in science classes.

At a bare minimum, anyone who is going to criticize this idea should understand the evidence biologists use to argue for common descent. Someone who doesn't understand how to read phylogenetic trees, or how those trees are constructed from DNA sequence or morphological data, is not going to have a coherent, rational argument against common descent, because to criticize common descent, you have to be able to explain why you think the DNA evidence is wrong.

Creationists have no credibility on this issue of common descent because they don't know what they're talking about. The main intelligent design textbook Of Panda's and People can't even get the basic argument used by biologists straight. The authors clearly don't understand how biologists infer evolutionary relationships from DNA sequence, because they make a basic blunder that anyone who has taken Biology 101 in the last 20 years could refute.

(Here's another discussion of the blunder, from the Kitzmiller trial transcript - scroll down to the part that starts with "I think the treatment of biology by Pandas is inaccurate..." In a nutshell, Pandas falls for the basic 'if humans descended from chimps, why are there still chimps?' fallacy, by suggesting that today's living amphibians are intermediates between fish and reptiles. The correct answer is that today's reptiles and amphibians are both descendants of a common amphibian-like ancestor - and DNA sequences reflect that.)

If creationists don't even understand the basic claims of evolutionary biology, how can we expect them to come up with sound criticisms? Only in the alternate universe of today's culture wars would supposedly responsible, normally-functioning people, designing curriculum standards for millions of public school students, invite crank criticisms of major scientific topics from a religiously-motivated public relations movement.

Discussing strengths and weaknesses in science is a good thing, but in the Texas debate, these words are nothing more than creationist code.

Comments

logicman's picture
Creationist arguments:

Strengths: musculature of the jaw and tongue.

Weaknesses:  A creator needs no mechanist components.  Why build using DNA when just by a thought things can be made to be, or not be?

Gerhard Adam's picture
Actually teaching strengths and weaknesses is NOT a good thing.  It is an endeavor that can only be realistically engaged in by the specialist.

When information is initially presented, it cannot be exhaustive or complete.  Most often it begins with overviews that neglect specific exceptions, and often progresses over long periods into more and more detailed pieces of information.  As the details become more specific, it becomes appropriate to talk about assumptions, or problems in the data or theories.  However, this presumes that there is a level of understanding about those participating in the discussion that makes the exploration useful.

It is not useful to have these kinds of discussions when the "alternative" viewpoint is steeped in ignorance or incomplete knowledge.  That's just a waste of everyone's time and elevates the student to a decision-making role about what is valid that they are ill-equipped to deal with.

It is a disservice to the student to expect that they evaluate what they are being taught.  If that were remotely possible, then let's get rid of the teachers because it suggests we already know what we need to know to make such an assessment.

This isn't to suggest that information about weaknesses shouldn't be available, but rather that it should be pursued by those motivated to investigate and educate themselves, rather than as an excuse to not "pay attention".  I can think of no instance where expertise was ever developed solely by sitting in a classroom. 

rholley's picture
And this doesn't apply only to science.  It can be especially pernicious in the case of history, where what is actually achieved is to subtly indoctrinate the students in the world-view of those who designed the course.




then let's get rid of the teachers because it suggests we already know what we need to know to make such an assessment.

Of course, that's what Plato was putting forward in his Meno dialogue.  Complete balderdash, although useful in that it does give an insight into the state of Greek mathematical knowledge.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
It is a disservice to the student to expect that they evaluate what they are being taught. 

I agree - a science class where the teacher simply rattles off strengths and weaknesses and, in the spirit of Fox News, says to the students, 'you decide' is bad pedagogy - it misleads them into thinking that after a week or two of classroom introduction to a complex topic they've learned enough to settle the issue.
I do think some genuine controversies would be worthwhile to discuss (but not with the goal of saying "you decide!"), because it would help students understand that science isn't just some codified body of knowledge handed down by authorities. 

The debate over genome-wide association studies, perhaps in an AP biology class, might be a good one if the kids were given enough background (see The Case of the Missing Heritability, if you can get Nature access). Going over controversies could help kids understand what good scientific questions are and how researchers go about answering them.


Gerhard Adam's picture
If that were going to be used as a technique, then why not discuss controversies that have already been resolved.  That would teach students how science works.  Without the expertise to understand all the nuances, discussing controversies is misleading and a waste of time.

Teach the facts first. If the kids have the facts of evolution, they'll be in a better position to discuss any suggested weaknesses.

The creationist stand is designed to prevent the teaching of the facts. If a teacher must present a subject, and then disavow it in the next breath, students are not going to learn the facts. That's what creationists hope.

Ben Franklin noted that truth wins in a fair fight (which is why we have evidence rules in federal courts in the U.S.). Creationists wish to keep the fight unfair, so they don't lose converts. It's a crabbed view of Christianity in the end, to think it can't compete against the truth (and probably blasphemous when you get down to it) -- but that's what they think.

Georg von Hippel's picture
Teaching the strengths and weaknesses of string theory in high school couldn't possibly work. Firstly, the teacher (even if he should be a physics graduate, rather than a biology, chemistry or geology one) is unlikely to know more about string theory than can be gleaned from the pages of Scientific American or The Elegant Universe (i.e. not much, definitely not enough to teach it). Secondly, even if he knew any actual string theory (and, unless he's turned to teaching at high school because his tenure case at university failed, that's a huge if), he wouldn't have the time to teach the kids enough to understand the strengths or weaknesses (Quantum field theory is a (at a minimum two-semester) graduate course, and pretty much a prerequisite for understanding string theory). I'm afraid genome-wide association studies wouldn't fare that much better, unless the kids have an unusually good grasp of statistics (more feasible than QFT at the high school level, but still hard to do, especially if you are dealing with kids who chose biology rather than physics because they dislike maths).
But you are right that teaching kids about the process of how scientific ideas are formed would be great in combatting creationist idiocy (and also maybe helping to reduce the number of run-of-the-mill crackpots propounding their random science fiction plot ideas as "theories").

adaptivecomplexity's picture
I agree completely - I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been in the original post when I brought up string theory: my point is that there are areas of science, at the cutting edge, where there are more obvious weak parts to the theory, because those theories are, well, at the cutting edge and not as well established as older fields. 
But in general (and as you point out with regards to string theory), those areas require significant background knowledge to get at, background knowledge which the students certainly won't have, and, like you say, in many cases the teachers won't have it either. 


Hank's picture
We've had this discussion a number of times but, like string theory or surgery, it may be that evolution is also too complex to be taught in the kinds of general science classes that must be taught in public high schools.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
I think biology is somewhat different from physics, in the sense that in biology, there aren't nearly as many advanced, complex concepts that build directly on early concepts. We've been talking about genome-wide association studies and string theory, and I think this illustrates my point.
As Georg pointed out, to understand string theory, you need to have some serious background in quantum field theory. Before you can have any chance with quantum field theory, you need to master more basic quantum mechanics. That basic quantum mechanics, in turn, requires a fair amount of basic physics and math. There is no way you can get to string theory without many semesters of previous work.

This is not the case with genome-wide association studies - if you know some basic molecular biology, it's not hard to learn enough material to understand what genome-wide associations studies are about, and where they run into problems. Even the statistics aren't that tricky - students may not easily master some of the fancier techniques, but it's not that hard to understand what type I errors are, or the problem of massive multiple hypothesis testing that genome-wide association studies run into. In your typical high school class, it's probably not worth going through all of this though.

John Baez sums up this issue well when he compares math and physics:

Math is a much more diverse subject than physics, in a way: there are lots of branches you can learn without needing to know other branches first... though you only deeply understand a subject after you see how it relates to all the others!


Biology is more like math in this way, than it is like physics.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I think that's where biology makes it's biggest mistake.  Because it involves a field that we encounter in the macroscopic world, it creates the illusion that somehow it's easier and that we already understand a great deal of what takes place.

This is precisely where creationist's get their foothold, because they are too intimidated to fight this battle in physics, but they think they're on more solid footing with biology. 

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Because many of the concepts are less abstract, people often assume that biology is easier. I think that some of the traits that differentiate biology from physics make it harder. Physics has a much nicer overall structure, with one field building on the next:
There are 5 cornerstone topics that every physicist should learn: Classical mechanics, Statistical mechanics, Electromagnetism, Special relativity, and Quantum mechanics in roughly that order. Once you know these, you have the background to learn the two best theories we have: General relativity (leading up to the Big Bang Model of cosmology) and Quantum field theory (leading up to the Standard Model of particle physics).  And once you know these, you'll be ready to study current attempts to unify quantum field theory and general relativity.

Biology is much messier - I think it's more difficult to master the connections between the different fields of biology, and as a result, it's more difficult to have a good, comprehensive working knowledge of biology without major holes. 

Biology is also difficult because it lacks quantitative general laws from which you can calculate accurate predictions. In physics, you can start with a little - Newton's laws, Maxwell's equations, a partition function, a wave function - and calculate a lot. The calculations aren't easy, but still, you achieve a lot by starting with a small number of principles. In biology you generally can't do that - general principles, like the Central Dogma or natural selection don't lead immediately to a few elegant equations from which you calculate a lot. And there are always exceptions to nearly every generalization in biology.

This means that to say almost anything with confidence in biology, you need lots and lots of experimental results. (Of course physics is experimental too, but there is much more that physicists can say with confidence without doing the experiment.) So, to master a field in biology, instead of knowing some basic equations and how to apply them, you have to be very familiar with a fairly large range of experimental results.

That means that biology can seem deceptively simple  - laypeople think that, because the concepts aren't as abstract as physics concepts, they can easily understand the subject, but without knowing the results of a large number of experiments, its very easy to go wrong when you try to reason about biology.


Over the past few decades, it seems like evolution has established itself as cornerstone of biology & genetics. I suspect that a large reason why we're seeing this push to teach evolution at more lower levels of education is b/c it's become even more fundamental to science as a whole.

Think of it this way: If tomorrow some researcher developed a complicated system or theory that was bound to completely revolutionize science as a whole, then it would be a good 30 or 40 years at least before you could even consider placing it on a regular high school curriculum. That is, it takes time for revolutionary developments to filter their way through science. The experts have to come to understand them. & it's application has to be seen & tested at multiple levels. But eventually, if it was really some revolutionary finding that was bound to shake the core of science - rather than say, a highly specialized area - then it would get to the high schools. Just not right away.

Society gains when these types of findings are widely dispersed thru the general public (Hawkins made this point in his book. Ironically, it was the only bit of his book that I understood). Cirriculla are getting more complex & integrating new knowledge every generation, but it takes time. I think that evolution is getting to that point where it's a fundamental principle in basic science, rather than a relatively advanced or niche area. It's no accident that this coincides w/large portions of the becoming all up & arms about evolution, b/c it's reached the point where much of the public has a basic grasp of evolution.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Think of it this way: If tomorrow some researcher developed a complicated system or theory that was bound to completely revolutionize science as a whole, then it would be a good 30 or 40 years at least before you could even consider placing it on a regular high school curriculum.

That's the other absurd thing about this intelligent design debate - even if intelligent design had some chance of being a real science, you wouldn't shove it into the curriculum until it's proven itself to be a productive field of research. 
ID proponents are starting ass-backwards (which betrays the non-scientific character of the movement) - they write some popular books and a textbook , and then start pressuring school boards for inclusion before setting up a single intelligent design lab or field study.


So let's discuss: You state:
"Let's just take one favorite example of creationists: common descent - the idea that today's living species descended from a past set of common ancestors. Biologists have concluded that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, one that lived ~6-8 million years ago, that today's mammals descended from organisms that were also the ancestors of today's reptiles, etc. etc."

Hmm. Darwin stated, "The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain: and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."

Evolutionists and Creationists alike know there is no intermediate transitional forms. Why you ask? Because in all those years of digging, we just can't find that ever so elusive "transitional form" what you guys call the "missing links."

Hey, better yet, why don't you tell the readers why Biology textbooks omit the truths about the Miller-Urey experiment in the 50's? It's hilarious!

Maybe you could discuss the Law of Probability and "link" (sorry for the pun) it to a discussion of the chances we derived from soup. Keyword left-handed amino acids. "Chandra Wickranmasinghe, professor of applied math and astronomy, calcuated that the probability of getting a cell by naturalistic process is: 1 x 10(-40,000)" (tell em about the word "never" and 1 to the 50th power).

How about "hydrolysis"?

Maybe you could discuss the laws of "thermodynamics" with your readers and why the third and fourth seem to be suspiciously glossed over or omitted from Biology books.

The bottom line is that we Creationists use every branch of Science to do two things: 1. Prove evolution wrong and 2. Prove that God is our Lord and Saviour.

We don't want most laymen (science teachers) teaching Creationism in schools because they aren't educated enough yet to do so...

Want the truth? Check out www.answersingenesis.org

...and the truth shall set you free.

Isn't Science fun?

God bless....

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Oookaay.... I'd love to hear you explain what the third law of thermodynamics has to do with evolution.

Gerhard Adam's picture
I can definitely calculate the probability that you haven't got a clue regarding this subject ...

Anonymous said:Hmm. Darwin stated, "The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain: and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."

My reply: Gee. And it turns out, every geological formation and every stratum is, indeed, full of intermediate links. Darwin thought geology was much more mature in his time than it was, and paleontology was barely a gleam in its daddy's eye. There are, it turns out, many finely graduated organic chains. Niles Eldredge has a string of more than 2,000 intermediate varieties of trilobite covering more than 300 million years of evolution.

Darwin also gravely underestimated the power of creationists to insist on stupid denialism of the facts, once the facts are known. Anonymous, can you tell us why you're unaware of anything new in geology or paleontology in the past 150 years?

HTML tags don't appear to be working. Drat.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
They should work if you hit the 'Switch to Plain Editor' button at the bottom of the text field. 

logicman's picture
Anonymous:

We don't want creationists (religious fundamentalists) teaching in schools because they aren't educated enough yet to do so...

This is a cut-and-paste of my comment to Michael's Genetics for Dummies:

Anybody who believes that Adam was cast out of Eden because he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge is going to be anti-knowledge.  Eve saw 'that the tree was desired to make one wise'.  It was only after eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge that they knew how to sew leaves to make aprons.  Now, that isn't exactly rocket science, so they must have been pretty dumb.


Given:  God created all kinds of vegetation before He created Adam and Eve.
Given: Adam and Eve had no knowledge until after they ate the forbidden fruit.
Query:  How come they managed to stay alive, since they could not have known what was edible and what was poisonous?


I'll stick with evolution, thanks.

Creationist answers the critics…

Looks like I punched a hornet’s nest. I didn’t mean to cause ill-will, it just sickens me that our public school kids are being taught these lies. Since evolution is just a theory, what’s the big deal if Intelligent Design is taught as the counter-argument? Are pro-choicers given a chance to be heard as much as pro-lifers? Gay rights groups given anything they want, sorry, I mean a platform, to spew their garbage in our heterosexual world? What are you people afraid of? Losing funding? Losing the argument? In case you haven’t noticed, the United States is spiraling into degradation. Do you think it has anything to do with the moral fiber of the choices between right and wrong being upset by evolution? If there is no one to answer to for making poor decisions, why stop? You people break my heart…

In my earlier post I was not talking about the third and fourth laws of thermodynamics, I was talking about the third and fourth conditions of the second law. Sorry for the confusion.

2nd law says complexity is decaying yet evolutionists say complexity is gaining. That is a direct contradiction. But wait, you say, that only has to do with isolated systems not open systems. It applies to both…
How then, you say, do we Creationists explaining a seed growing into a mature plant. That is evidence of gaining complexity.

The four conditions of the second law are:
1. Open system like the earth
2. Available energy like the sun
(These are the two we see in textbooks with 3 and 4 sneakily omitted. That is what I was referring to).
3. A way to capture and store raw energy
4. An energy conversion mechanism
In the third condition, there is no scientific explanation for where this mechanism comes from, hence, the reason it is left out of textbooks. See, Creationists know where the mechanism came from. Take for instance an engine, all the parts working together capture energy when you turn the key. However, take the engine apart and turn the key, nothing. There is nothing there to capture the energy. You have all the parts to do it, but they have to be placed in the right order to work. What an evolutionist postulates is that given enough time, the parts would miraculously put themselves in the right order to capture energy. Ain’t gonna happen…

This is analogous to DNA. The information that makes us tick. evolutionists postulate that given enough time, the perfect elements, the perfect bla, bla, bla, that amino acids (left-handed remind you) would miraculously align themselves magically in the right order to make, woo-hoo, a cell. And then, given time, bla, bla, bla, that cell would evolve into you and me! How exciting! Sorry. Look up the law of probability on this matter. It just didn’t happen. You postulate the earth is like 25-30 million, heck billion, who cares, years old. Given the law of probability, it would take a quadrillion years to create the correct order of amino acid chain. And that’s just the first step on your way to a cell. Remind you, our bodies contain trillions of cells. While we’re here, you ever look at a cell? One cell has thousands of mechanisms working in conjunction to make it work. Just that one cell! Sorry, didn’t happen. It’s called Intelligent Design. Who we Creationists call God.

So, after all that there is still a fourth condition in the second law that says you need an energy conversion mechanism to take that stored energy to be used as raw energy. Where did that mechanism come from? I’m tired of talking now so I’ll make it simple, God.

Isn’t it exciting to be a Christian!

Finally, Dr. John Ross, a Harvard Scientist and beloved evolutionist stated:
“There are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems.”
Ouch, he’s one of your boys.

I don’t mean to be rude, I just want you to repent and save your souls.

I’ll visit again someday, but I now must return to the land I live in…reality.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Wow ... I am so dazzled by the brilliance of the arguments advanced by an anonymous contributor, who in a few paragraphs has managed to clear up the failings of 150 years of science.

I am continuously amazed at scientists that insist on doing all those experiments to PROVE something works rather than simply declaring it a miracle. 

Once again, it is worth noting that this isn't simply "creationist nonsense" against evolution, but it clearly represents an indictment against ALL of science.  How such fools can take advantage of everything that science has achieved and still manage to delude themselves, truly indicates a level of mental gymnastics that is genuinely impressive.

Stellare's picture
Go Gymnastics! :-D It is truly a piece of work, that anonymous presents, that I wouldn't believe if I didn't see it. But then again, I'm not particularly religious of me. In fact there isn't a single religious bone in my body! :-) If I don't see* it, I don't believe it.


*see in more than direct light visions...:-) but still see.

logicman's picture
Since evolution is just a theory, what’s the big deal if Intelligent Design is taught as the counter-argument?

The big deal is the thin end of the wedge argument, the give them an inch and they'll take a mile argument.

If creationists, in whatever guise, are allowed to teach ID as against evolution as if an argument with no scientific credentials is as valid as an argument with such credentials, then they won't stop there.  They will want to take us back to the dark ages, a time before the light of reason led to our modern understanding of the comos and ourselves.  Please excuse me if I wish to continue to live in the age of reason.

By the standards of the creationist, all science is 'just a theory'.  Accordingly, they will want to teach that the Earth, or at least the Sun, is the centre of the universe.  The idea that the lift on an aeroplane's wing is due mainly to air flow over the upper surface defies common sense experience, so it is just a theory.  Quick!  Close the airports!  The idea that diseases are caused by bacteria is just a theory.  Quick! Ban disinfectants!

Take for instance an engine, all the parts working together capture energy when you turn the key.

Anonymous: that would be wonderful if it were true - free energy at the turn of a key!  Unfortunately, the reverse is true: as soon as you turn the key, you consume energy.

The laws of thermodynamics, properly understood and applied, show that all of the energy we humans use is converted 100% into heat in our environment.

The human race is fast approaching an environmental crisis caused by profligate energy consumption.  Now, if people think that cars create energy, then we are most definitely living in the age of stupid.

I ran into the grocery store this afternoon just to pick up some milk. I realized I could also use cereal, & juice, & a few other items. Since I hadn't picked up a bin, I stood at the checkout line straining to carry each individual item, looking like a buffoon. If I'd have just picked up a bin, it all would've been much more easier to carry. A bin wouldn't have "created" energy in the objective sense. But by allowing me to optimize my muscles in accordance with the laws of physics, *I* would've saved energy; and for all practical purposes, I would've created it too, at least for myself, b/c then my muscles would've been less tired, & I might use them for some other purpose.

re, Patrick: "Now, if people think that cars create energy, then we are most definitely living in the age of stupid."

The same is true, I would argue, of cars.

&, in a sense, of the whole economy: The real value of any loan or voluntary transaction is subjective. That is to say, objectively speaking, energy is a zero-sum game. But we use it for subjective purposes, ranging from luxury items to necessities; & from this perspective, as with all things subjective, it's not a zero-sum game.

re, Anonymous, a similar confusion is made in religious arguments against evolution. It's a colossal misunderstanding of subjectivity & objectivity.

Speaking subjectivity, I think we can all agree that life is a gift. If you're thankful for your time on this earth, then the rest is just details.

But you can't take those subjective sentiments & create/modify science accordingly, or use them as axioms to create a science, b/c science isn't based on feelings. The "transfer of energy" that produced human life, if you could call it that - tho we all may be infinity grateful for it - may be as "arbitrary" as the action of shifting multiple grocery items into a bag. Similar to say a car or a worthwhile small-business loan, it doesn't "create" energy, but it still harnesses it in a matter that makes a real difference to real people.

Insofar as we can separate ourselves from any objective of study (& from Galileo to Darwin, that's been a challenge in some areas), our feelings or thankfulness about the matter shouldn't affect our principles & axioms. But likewise the conclusions we draw from those studies shouldn't affect our thankfulness for life either.

logicman's picture
the conclusions we draw from those studies shouldn't affect our thankfulness for life either.


Agreed.  I bundle my logic and science under 'philosophy' and my spirituality quite separately under 'ethics'.

That is a model of self-control that I developed from reading a document drafted by a bunch of folks who had the temerity to rebel against the Crown Imperial.  I don't recall all of the names of these criminals, but I recall that a couple of gentlemen called Williamson and Franklin had a hand in drafting  the document

These people held to the strange notion that the church and the state should be separated.  I never did hear such ideas in all of my born days.  Why! The next thing you know, these colonialist rebels will be claiming that the Pope isn't infallible!

:)

Garbageman's picture
You know, I think I might consider allowing a "strengths and weaknesses" clause in if every church in America would allow, every Sunday, for a led discussion of the "strengths and weaknesses" of Christianity.

Ah yes, every Sunday we could watch either "Religulous" or "The God Who Wasn't There" or "Root of All Evil," etc., followed by a calm and reasoned discussion led by the priest or minister.  I can just see it now.

Anonymous, what say you? 

Actually, I really think everyone should just completely ignore the "Anonymous" type posts.  It's strictly flame bait.  Arguing with them just wastes your time and gives them exactly what they want.

I know that as scientifically minded people, we like to think that reasoned argument can win the day, but you can't have a reasoned discussion with someone who puts faith above reason.  For them, faith will always trump.

Save your collective breath (fingers?).

aaanouel's picture
Creationists live in Middle Age and won't even accept earth rotates around the sun, no matters how you'd try to show the evidences to convince them. For they, there are no galaxies, no other planets, no Hubble, no Darwin, no DNA, no Science...


It is not that hard to see why creationists are fighting so hard on this issue. 5,000 years ago man was already civilized, was living in cities, writing and reading and looked decent. But if you keep going back, things don't look so good. If you went back to the time of neanderthals, man looked unkempt, was communicating by grunting, hardly had any clothes on, unshaven, horrible teeth and hair! OMG, that's god! god made man in his image, so that's how god must have looked? And if you keep going back, the image keeps getting worse, now god is naked and is an ape! Go back further now he is a fish! And the timeline goes all out of whack. If the dinosaurs ruled for millions of years and man has been here for only a few, that means we are not that important. god did not create us first. Everythng that the church teaches boils down to a fairy story!

Backward religions teach backward ideas.

logicman's picture
Perhaps the original intention of the word 'image' or 'likeness' was 'plan' or 'model'.  A blueprint if you like.

I wonder how many people who use the word 'blueprint' have ever seen a real blue print of a technical drawing.  Words and useages change greatly over decades.  In fact language itself is a perfect model of evolution in process.  Words are born.  They grow, they die.  They cross natural barriers or are trapped behind barriers.  Languages are 'infected' by 'foreign code'.  Languages merge, languages split.  Words compete for selection.

Selection and Competition in Creole Formation: A Case Study

Becky Jungbauer's picture

Just announced today: Texas state legislators are considering taking away some of the state Board of Education's power amid frustration with the board's politically charged debate over how to teach evolution, according to the Wall Street Journal article. "At this point, a lot of us are questioning...whether the state Board of Education serves a purpose anymore," said state Rep. Donna Howard, a Democrat.



adaptivecomplexity's picture
As it should be - as long as they don't leave the issue for the legislators themselves to micromanage. Boards and legislatures should certainly exercise oversight and set the major goals, but the specifics of curriculum design and textbook selection should be in the hands of professionals who are qualified to do things like evaluate textbooks.

creationist code words?

You Darweenies are becoming more and more pathologically paranoid and saliently just plain old stupid.
Really, this is laughable. May I recommend a good shrink for you Mikey?

Gerhard Adam's picture

Of course ... creationist code words.... since creationists don't actually have the courage to say what's on their minds, they feel compelled to sneak their religious agenda in under a phony scientific heading.

Therein lies the problem.  Trying to get the religious people to be honest (guess that's not a tenet of their beliefs).



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