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By Michael White | June 26th 2009 10:01 PM | 13 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Michael White

Welcome to Adaptive Complexity, where I write about genomics, systems biology, evolution, and the connection between science and literature, government, and society.

I'm a biochemist


... Full Bio


Jeffery Dach, MD claims that this argument is persuasive:

Since every man on the street knows that the computer code that runs a program requires  intelligence for its origin, it is reasonable to make the same inference with the code in DNA, which is even more complicated.  This is Stephen Meyer's point regarding the coded pattern in DNA which (according to Bill Gates) is a even more complicated than the source code for  Microsoft Office.  Both of them require intelligence for their origin, and even the man on the street can see this clearly.

Michael White, PhD, has the following to say about this nonsense:

1) The man on the street is generally not a very good endorsement for the soundness of any particular idea, as Jay Leno has demonstrated on numerous occasions:


2) The argument above essentially asserts that, because we know  human inventions require intelligence to produce, complex systems in nature also require intelligence to produce. But why would we draw that conclusion? The vast majority of complex, information-rich systems we're familiar with (i.e., those in nature, which far outnumber human-designed systems) require no direct, observable intelligence to produce - as far as we can see from direct observation. So, the more reasonable conclusion, if we're going to make inferences about the design of complex systems from our direct observation of the generation of such systems, is that intelligently-designed systems are the exception. Go read the argument quoted above again - nowhere are we given a reason for why we should conclude that human-designed systems (the minority) make a proper analogy for natural systems (the majority).

3) We have some understanding of how natural complexity is produced, and no intelligent input is required. We can observe the evolution of new metabolic pathways. We know how new genes are produced. We understand, to some degree, how a zygote follows a complex developmental process, without any intelligent input.

So Dach's (and Meyer's) argument isn't even really an argument -it's just an assertion, that information and complexity can't be produced without intelligence. So where is the evidence? William Dembski (with his ideas about 'conservation of information', and Michael Behe (with his notion of irreducible complexity) have put forward some ideas, but to date, it's just armchair science - neither of them has bothered to test these ideas against the natural world, in stark contrast to physicists, who have extensively tested their conservation laws. 
 I'm still waiting for the ID people to stop pretending to be scientists: it's time for them to actually go out and do what genuine scientists do.



Comments

briantaylor's picture
Michael's own articles can speak to this....
Start with:
http://www.scientificblogging.com/adaptive_complexity/saving_science_non...
(be sure to read the links he provides in it.)

Then read:
http://www.scientificblogging.com/adaptivecomplexity/intelligent_designs...
(be sure to read the long argument between Michael and some still useless, (i checked, ) twit.)

Then realise that you aren't going to get an answer out of this because you can no more understand the big bang than you can god, and read this: Taken from my blog

"If you look at it religiously or spiritually you run the risk of
dangerous offenses. If you look at it scientifically you must have
proof. It's the double standard of the fickle programming. You can't
win. There isn't any answer possible in the current reality.

We've reached an impasse for either the mystical or scientific argument
for it takes a leap of faith to reasonably explain both the smallest
and largest components of either camp. (Note I say mystical, not
religious, let us separate Religion as an idea from the idea of God,
furthermore let us stipulate that "God" shall be defined as "Creator"
and nothing more. I do this as the idea of God as creator is common
among current and historical definitions. There's also the ease of
contemplation in terms of equality with the ease of understanding.

I don't have the faculty nor the time to understand the true nature of
the big bang, I must take it on as much faith as I do God. And I do...
The evaluation of why I do, perhaps we will discuss some other time.)
Religion, on the other hand, let us define as the catagorization and
distribution of a much finer definition of God with all the accoutre
one would expect. (For eg: "God is such and such or God expects this
and that.") So by the defining of our terms we can now claim that our
God vs the Big Bang paradigm is equally reliant on faith. It doesn't
mean that we must pick one or the other. It means we must remember what
faith means."

"I'm still waiting for the ID people to stop pretending to be
scientists: it's time for them to actually go out and do what genuine
scientists do."


As am I, but while I wait, I can no more tell them that they are wrong, than I can tell you  or I,  or anyone else for that matter, is right.
I can only agree that their argument doesn't exist.
Best thoughts!


briantaylor's picture
or, just "no" / does not compute
Information does not preclude designer
but also
Information does not require designer
Wrong question? Bleep Bloop?
Where's Gerhard when you need him? :)

adaptivecomplexity's picture
Information does not preclude designer

I agree with this. I'm attacking intelligent design as a non-scientific theory, one whose principal purpose to oppose evolution. I am most certainly not trying to use science to attack God.
Evolution is good science; intelligent design is pseudoscience - not simply because it refers to a designer, but because it's attacks on evolution are flawed and it's claims of positive evidence for a designer are wrong. It's conceivable that some day there will be genuine scientific evidence for a designer (although I personally don't think so). 

Wrong question?

Let's hear the right question - no need to be coy!

Gerhard Adam's picture



Since every man on the street knows that the computer code that runs a program requires  intelligence for its origin, it is reasonable to make the same inference with the code in DNA, which is even more complicated.



This is just a variation of the tired old "self-assembly of a 747" argument that these people are so fond of making.  The real silliness of the "designer" arguments, is that they don't seem to grasp the idea that the ONLY reason something needs to be designed is to ensure that it operates within tolerances and the rules of science (which are beyond the designer's control).  Therefore, regardless of where the "rules for science" originated, and regardless of whether you believe in a creator or not, ... the rules of science are the only vehicle for understanding how anything works.  To postulate otherwise denies the act of ANY creator.



adaptivecomplexity's picture
This is just a variation of the tired old "self-assembly of a 747" argument that these people are so fond of making

I just have to roll my eyes when I hear that 747 analogy.  747's don't self-assemble, but biochemical systems do. The chemistry is amazing - you can put together, in a test tube, some DNA encoding a gene, nucleotides, and some enzymes, and you'll get spontaneous transcription, outside of a cell - all it requires is pure protein, a little DNA, and some nucleotides. A biochemical system is different from a mechanical system in some very crucial ways.

Gerhard Adam's picture
It doesn't even require biochemical systems.  The 747 left to itself will still be subject to chemical interactions and eventually deteriorate.  I don't hear anyone suggesting that there is a divine intelligence directing such chemical behaviors.

briantaylor's picture
Ahhh, there he is....

Gerhard Adam's picture
Brian;  it's not like I've been in hiding.  :)

briantaylor's picture
I have big clumsy, oafish useless clothespins for fingers. Sometimes
they hit "post" before my brain has completely evaluated the worth of
my comments, particularly on a Saturday afternoon when my blogging is
rudely interrupted by the banal distractions of reality.

I humbly apologise for my shameless pandering to my own self interests. I am prone to fits of quoting myself en grosse.

I agree with everything in your article.(How could I not?)  My secondary comment was made by some other, cheeky monkey! (Can't you tell by the obligatory smiley face?)

I think the question is, "Is there something in the information that proves a designer?" It has nothing to do with your article, but thanks for asking me, to ask...myself?

If there was something in our DNA, for example, that shouldn't be there, yet is. "Shouldn't" by the standards of appropriate expertise.  Or if there was some contradictory instruction in a necessary process. If these phenomenon became known to exist with no "reason" to, it might implicate interference with the programming.

what may be, and must be, is.
and information, is
there are receivers
they are receiving
this much we know, I think...
 The ID people are asking from whence is the information come?
They are assuming there is something sending the info.
Or something having sent it.

Gerhard Adam's picture
Brian; I'm afraid the point remains the same.  If there is something that is "miraculous" then it operates outside the rules of science and doesn't require all the rules of information theory, or construction, or design, etc. etc. etc.  However, if everything appears as if it were designed, then it suggests that there are rules at work. 

However, the contradiction with a divine creator is that it is supposedly exempt from rules (omnipotent, omniscient, etc.).  Therefore we are forced to consider that if there is a divine creator, then it must be subject to rules like the rest of us and can't simply suspend them at will.  If that is the case, then there's really no reason to postulate the creator, since the rules exist whether or not the creator does.

Of course, the most obvious argument then is that the creator created the rules.  Which once again returns me to the fact that, regardless of whether there is a creator or not, the "rules" are the only definitive way to figure out how anything works.  Therefore, those that are proposing ID, are simply evading the question.

The fundamental problem which will always exist, is that of "first cause".  To argue that DNA requires a designer to have conveyed the information begs the question of where the information came from that generated the "creator".  Once can't simply argue that the "creator" is infinite and always existed, because then why not simply make that argument for the "information" (or self-organizing) principle as being intrinsic in the universe itself.

briantaylor's picture
I think, if it's possible for something to be "miraculous" and be defined as being "outside the rules of science" then it is exempt from the understanding we have, by definition as the only known contemplators of such questions and indeed, of science itself.
As such, contemplating same with these understandings would be moot.
If what I have just stated is true, then your following statement is also true: "..there's really no reason to postulate a creator, since the rules exist whether or not the creator does," but naught for the reasons you give, just for the reasons inherent in our definitions.
I agree that the "rules" are the only pathway to understanding we have and because we have them we should use them. The argument that the rules have been "created" is circular. It's the ID'ers pointing to proof while calling it faith and vice versa. 

The fundamental problem of "first cause" may not always exist. For instance if there was some force that could be influential despite it's existence or lack thereof.

Now we need a physicist!

Q: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
A: Everything.


Gerhard Adam's picture
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I thought I'd answer this, since it seems to come up so often as if implying some deeper philosophical problem.

The answer is always the egg, because since the egg is the predecessor to the adult chicken, it makes no sense to suggest that the chicken could have ever come first. 

I think, if it's possible for something to be "miraculous" and be defined as being "outside the rules of science"

To do that we would have to be able to distinguish between "what we know", "what we don't know", and "what we can never know".   Therefore defining something as "miraculous" would in itself be "miraculous".

rholley's picture
To do that we would have to be able to distinguish between "what we know", "what we don't know", and "what we can never know".



¡Viva la Filosofía Rumsfeldiana!


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