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By Michael White | September 3rd 2009 09:08 AM | 4 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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About Michael White

Welcome to Adaptive Complexity, where I write about genomics, systems biology, evolution, and the connection between science and literature, government, and society.

I'm a biochemist


... Full Bio


What's the quickest way to get scientists and serious science writers to quit coming on your show? Invite the creationists. Discover bloggers Sean Carroll and Carl Zimmer explain what happened:

Sean says:

A few weeks ago we were a bit startled to find a “Science Saturday” episode of BH.tv featuring Paul Nelson, an honest-to-God young-Earth creationist. Not really what most of us like to think of as “science.” So there were emails back and forth trying to figure out what went on. David Killoren, who is the person in charge of the Science Saturday dialogues, is an extremely reasonable guy; we had slightly different perspectives on the matter, but in the end he appreciated the discomfort of the scientists, and we agreed to classify that dialogue as a “failed experiment,” not something that would be a regular feature.

So last week we were startled once again, this time by the sight of a dialogue between John McWhorter and Michael Behe. Behe, some of you undoubtedly know, is a leading proponent of Intelligent Design, and chief promulgator of the idea of “irreducible complexity...."

...we were a little perturbed at the appearance of an ID proponent so quickly after we thought we understood that the previous example had been judged a failed experiment. So more emails went back and forth, and this morning we had a conference call with Bob Wright, founder of BH.tv. To be honest, I went in expecting to exchange a few formalities and clear the air and we could all get on with our lives; but by the time it was over we agreed that we were disagreeing, and personally I didn’t want to be associated with the site any more...

If BH.tv has something unique and special going for it, it’s the idea that it’s not just a shouting match, or mindless entertainment. It’s a place we can go to hear people with very different perspectives talk about issues about which they may strongly disagree, but with a presumption that both people are worth listening to.

Carl:

In my job as a science writer, I try my best to convey an accurate picture of where science is at the moment. That means I do not write about just anything. I write about research and ideas that have held up under scrutiny. Sometimes that means writing about an important new development in a line of research that has emerged from peer review. Sometimes that means writing about a fierce debate between scientists who all have made a lot of important discoveries on the topic. It doesn’t mean writing about creationism–or medical quackery, or any other non-science–in a way that implies it really has scientific merit. I have sometimes blogged about creationists, but chiefly to explain why scientists do not take them seriously.

I brought these standards from my writing to my work at Bloggingheads. So I was not happy to find a creationist holding forth there (and never even being challenged about a 6,000-year-old Earth). Did this mean that the people who run Bloggingheads consider creationism real science worth discussing–with a creationist at that?...

My standard for taking part in any forum about science is pretty simple. All the participants must rely on peer-reviewed science that has direct bearing on the subject at hand, not specious arguments that may sound fancy but are scientifically empty. I believe standards like this one are crucial if we are to have productive discussions about the state of science and its effects on our lives.
This is not Blogginghead’s standard, at least as I understand it now. And so here we must part ways.


Prof. Orzel at Uncertain Principles comments:

On the other hand, though, I think that this involves a small misunderstanding of what bloggingheads is. They're not Science or Nature. They're not even Discover. They're basically a low-budget general-interest tv network, and as such, they're in the business of selling controversy.
I mean, they do one dialogue a week on science, on Saturday. The rest of the week, they're devoted to discussions of politics and culture. And it's not like they shy away from promoting lunatics there-- as someone in Sean's comments noted, Ann Althouse is a regular guest, and can be counted on to bring the crazy from time to time.

So I can also understand why bloggingheads might want to have a controversial figure like Michael Behe on. Controversy brings traffic, and traffic is the whole point of the game. I can understand how perfectly reasonable intentions would lead to scheduling the dialogues in question, and I can understand why Robert Wright refuses to pledge to never again have those sorts of guests on.

Fine. But don't expect genuine scientists to lend their credibility to your Science Saturday show if you do invite such people on. The issue here is that the creation-evolution debate is not a scientific one - the science has been settled. Putting real scientists and cranks on in the same forum (even if they're not on at the same time), and calling it a science forum gives the illusion of a real scientific debate.

For some reason, in our society we place great weight on the initials Ph.D. or M.D. after your name (even when the degree is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand). A degree is no insurance against quackery. But those of us who take our credentials as a serious responsibility to be honest about the subject in which we work can't in good conscience lend them to a show that would use our professional credibility to prop up the lunatic fringe.


Tip o' the hat to Brad DeLong and 3quarksdaily.

Read the feed:


Comments

Hank's picture
I'm not surprised over the controversy.  For as much as the writers above want to pretend they just care about science, their contracts mean they have to write about something and that means creating a lot of drama where not much exists.

I watched a segment there one time, because Carl interviewed Lee Silver, but it looked like a high school project.

So it's easy to cast them off because they're little.  Did Carl stop writing for the Washington Post because they carry George Will?   Nope, though he doesn't agree with anything the guy believes.    And Sean Carroll went after Tommaso one time for deviating from the artificial, sexual political box that the more political/cultural bloggers create for themselves and others.

Um, Hank, I don't write for the Washington Post. I did write a single book review for them five years ago. That's not out of any particular principle, just that I have a good relationship with the New York Times for science reporting.

However, there is a huge division between the news section of the Washington Post and the op-ed section. And given the way the op-ed section has behaved with George Will--not even bothering to publish a correction when Post's own news staff has pointed out his basic science errors--I wouldn't try to land a piece in the Post's op-ed pages.

It's certainly true that as a freelance writer, I have to resign myself to having my stories appear sometimes in publications that also publish some cheesy stuff on science. But there are also times when even a freelancer has to walk away. This is one such case.

adaptivecomplexity's picture
The George Will issue, as bad as that is,  is not the appropriate analogy here. Will isn't posing as a climate scientist - he's a pundit, and pundits say crazy things. Putting on a creationist with a science degree, and introducing him as a scientist, in a forum with legitimate scientists (and serious science writers) lends credibility to a crank movement in a way that giving George Will op-ed space does not.

I was just watching CNN and they had a story on about a boy that had some unknown illness that was causing him to "cry blood" (bleed through his tear ducts). They had the kid and his mom on live and then brought on a doctor (and I think the idea was to facilitate the idea that CNN was somehow helping this poor child). I wasn't really paying attention because, frankly, I don't consider this news worthy. Anyway, I was pretty shocked when I heard this medical doctor explaining the workings of the human eye by referring to "God's design"! Now, granted, he's a doctor, not a scientist, and he's entitled to practice medicine and retain whatever religious beliefs he may have. But when he's on national television and says something like that so casually while speaking from a position of medical (and in the eyes of the public, scientific) authority... it just makes me angry.

To be fair, a large number of good scientists regularly irk me when they use anthropomorphic language to describe evolution, biological (or other natural) processes, or use language that implies intent, purpose, or design, without thinking about it. Biologists who speak freely of how "perfectly designed" a creature is just fall into the same kind of logical trap. Natural does not think or intend, and even if it did or could, we'd have no way of knowing or proving. When I hear a scientist, or worse yet a science teacher, talk about "selection" in a way that implies some kind of conscious affirmation, or that evolution "tries" various designs. I think these are not very different habits from what creationists do, only creationists do it consciously toward the end of promoting and lending the aura of legitimacy to their religious point of view. Most scientists I think either do it innocently, because evolution is really a highly abstract statistical process and as human beings we need to understand the world in terms of our own experience, and/or because they themselves harbor informal but still quasi-religious sentimentalities and attitudes toward "nature" as some kind of sacred entity or thing as has been common for scientists from the beginnings of science. But they are both guilty of similar errors in thinking and misrepresentation of evolution and biology as we currently understand them.

On the whole of the issue, I think the creationism-vs-evolution debate is an important debate to have, philosophically and theologically and for the public to better understand what science is and is not. I agree with you whole-heartedly that putting a creationist on the same level as a scientist and calling it a "scientific" debate rather than a philosophical discussion is a bad idea... for the same reason you don't put a Holocaust Denier on the air with real historians and call it a history seminar. However, I do think that scientists need to open up to combatting the challenge from creationism head-on, but in a way that recognizes that science itself is tentative by nature. For example, when you say that the science on evolution "has been settled" that is misleading and incorrect. Science by definition is never settled. It's an open-ended search for better and better answers. No one in their right mind would say that the science on gravity is "settled". By communicating to the public that science is a set of absolute and value-neutral facts that constitute some kind of Platonic Truth about reality, is flawed because it means the public wont understand how science actually works. Creationsists simply point out that evolution is "just a theory" as if that were some kind of insult because "theory" in the popular vernacular means something very different from scientific theory. The public does not realize at large that even the most hard-proven natural "laws" have problems with them and aren't completely understood. Newton was very wrong about gravity, for example, and we're currently trying to find the fabled graviton (which might not even exist). Science is not about Truth or facts, or right or wrong, it's about a set of basic rules and principles for playing the game of trying to understand nature. I don't think most people get that and I think the popular misconceptions around science are the biggest weapon in the arsenal of the anti-evolutionists, because they can attack science through the public's misunderstandings of what science is, rather than have to compete with science scientifically.

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